Pool "Secrets" Found on AZ

One advantage of outside english is that it results in less throw toward the rail (actually, absolutely no throw if "gearing" outside english is used), or it results in throw away from the rail (if more than a "gearing" amount is used). In either case, the OB will be less likely to hit the cushion first, resulting in a "bigger" pocket (except on tables like Valley/Dynamo bar boxes where the pocket is actually "bigger" hitting cushion first at slow to medium speeds).

Also, if running spin is transferred to the OB (by greater-than-"gearing" outside), that would tend to lengthen the rebound off the cushion (but this is a very small effect at shallow angles to the rail).

Some people suggest that inside english is the true "helping" english because it imparts spin to the OB in the direction that helps it enter the pocket (off the far pocket wall).

Bob did some experiments related to "helping english" that he reported in BD not too long ago. The article isn't online yet so I can't link to it, but maybe Bob can elaborate. My recollection was that there was a measurable amount of "help," but it isn't really an important effect practically speaking (... but I could be wrong). Bob?

That is definitely a strong effect (whether there is sidespin on the OB or not), hence the value of "pocket speed." The pocket is much "bigger" if the OB enters rolling (with topspin).
I think that it's important to be able to play any shot with inside, outside, top, bottom, and/or center in order to play position, and the same applies to thin cuts, but my "go to" cut shot if I can forget about position is a little above center. I think that the accuracy is more important than any gearing effects, so I don't think any of the benefits of inside or outside are worth dealing with squirt and swerve if I don't need position.

I think that your point about the object ball rolling into the pocket is a good one. My preferred style of play for rotation games is to play a lot of inside, stun, and draw shots from the middle of the table, so there's not a lot of rolling involved, but I do try to roll in balls that I cut down the rail to make the pocket play a little bigger.
 
using inside I can actually lesson the angle slightly

When anyone uses outside english they will deflect the ball towards the object ball, not away from it (before the spin moves it the other way). This process will actually create a thinner cut than what's apparent....that's one of the "secret components" of TOI's effectiveness in playing the '3 Part Pocket System'.


Evidently you haven't seen the 93-degree cut shot. That's made with more outside than most pool players ever use. Outside can help make thin cut shots that appear to be impossible.
 
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When anyone uses outside english they will deflect the ball towards the object ball, not away from it (before the spin moves it the other way). This process will actually create a thinner cut than what's apparent....that's one of the "secret components" of TOI's effectiveness in playing the '3 Part Pocket System'.

My eyes aren't good enough to see any deflection, all I know is when Jay offered up this gem about using low on very thin cuts, it worked (before, I was using outside). Same goes for your TOI concept..it works. And if it's a joke, it's a joke that I use and appreciate.
 
The thinnest cuts I've ever seen were made with a Touch of Inside.....when you use "outside english" the cue ball deflects slightly towards the object ball producing more angle (as it spins back to make contact).

With TOI (a touch of inside) the cue ball defects slightly AWAY from the object ball producing no more angle (than what's apparent).

When using severe english it's possible to throw the object ball more, however, this shot takes impeccable execution and not recommended for game situations (especially under pressure). Using TOI or "draw" is probably the best shot to depend on imho.

I understand the TOI thing CJ, I already bought your DVDs, thats why I asked if you can cut more with inside or outside if "you are contacting object ball in exact same place".
P.S. now that I understand TOI I love it, I dont use it on every shot but for me it works extremely good on full length shots with small cut angles.:)
 
Hmm...so thin cuts can be made with outside or inside, or low, possibly high, maybe even center?? :frown:
 
Hmm...so thin cuts can be made with outside or inside, or low, possibly high, maybe even center?? :frown:
Yep. This discussion is just about which is most reliable. My vote goes to a slight follow shot because I believe that is the shot that most consistently delivers the cue ball to the intended target across all conditions.
 
One advantage of outside english is that it results in less throw toward the rail (actually, absolutely no throw if "gearing" outside english is used), or it results in throw away from the rail (if more than a "gearing" amount is used). In either case, the OB will be less likely to hit the cushion first, resulting in a "bigger" pocket (except on tables like Valley/Dynamo bar boxes where the pocket is actually "bigger" hitting cushion first at slow to medium speeds).

Also, if running spin is transferred to the OB (by greater-than-"gearing" outside), that would tend to lengthen the rebound off the cushion (but this is a very small effect at shallow angles to the rail).

Some people suggest that inside english is the true "helping" english because it imparts spin to the OB in the direction that helps it enter the pocket (off the far pocket wall).

Bob did some experiments related to "helping english" that he reported in BD not too long ago. The article isn't online yet so I can't link to it, but maybe Bob can elaborate. My recollection was that there was a measurable amount of "help," but it isn't really an important effect practically speaking (... but I could be wrong). Bob?

[concerning rolling a ball into a pocket]: That is definitely a strong effect (whether there is sidespin on the OB or not), hence the value of "pocket speed." The pocket is much "bigger" if the OB enters rolling (with topspin).

The best understanding comes from experience. It's also nice when physics and experience agree (which is usually the case ... assuming the physics and experience are being interpreted correctly).
I think that it's important to be able to play any shot with inside, outside, top, bottom, and/or center in order to play position, and the same applies to thin cuts, but my "go to" cut shot if I can forget about position is a little above center. I think that the accuracy is more important than any gearing effects, so I don't think any of the benefits of inside or outside are worth dealing with squirt and swerve if I don't need position.
I agree 100%. Although, in some situations (e.g., dirty/chalk-smudged conditions and/or slow stun shots), even if english is not required, gearing outside english can help some people be more accurate and consistent (assuming they are good at compensating for squirt and swerve where appropriate).

I think that your point about the object ball rolling into the pocket is a good one. My preferred style of play for rotation games is to play a lot of inside, stun, and draw shots from the middle of the table, so there's not a lot of rolling involved, but I do try to roll in balls that I cut down the rail to make the pocket play a little bigger.
Again, we agree here too.

Good post,
Dave
 
.it's natural......and in some cases "super" natural

Yep. This discussion is just about which is most reliable. My vote goes to a slight follow shot because I believe that is the shot that most consistently delivers the cue ball to the intended target across all conditions.

This isn't true is you're trying to hit the "center" of the cue ball. It's always better to favor one side of the cue ball or the other to create a zone......you simply can't do that trying to hit the ball perfectly straight for hours on end (or to attempt to win a major tournament).

Golf is a prime example of players that can hit the ball straight, and choose to intentionally move the ball one way or the other (except for pitch shots, punch shots, putts, etc).

This is to create an "approach angle" which gives them the ability to play the shot to move slightly on purpose......our minds don't process straight lines when hitting/throwing/kicking balls......there's always movement, and this is what our minds conform best to......it's natural......and in some cases "super" natural. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
This [a slight follow shot most consistently delivers the cue ball to the intended target] isn't true if you're trying to hit the "center" of the cue ball.
I disagree. If I shoot from the head spot to the center diamond on the foot rail 100 times by hitting the vertical axis of the cue ball, my accuracy and precision will be better than if I try to do the same thing hitting off-center and compensating for squirt and swerve, especially across different speeds.
It's always better to favor one side of the cue ball or the other to create a zone......you simply can't do that trying to hit the ball perfectly straight for hours on end (or to attempt to win a major tournament).
I'm not suggesting that every shot should be played with center-follow. I am saying that I can more consistently put the cue ball on target with that shot than any other shot.
Golf is a prime example of players that can hit the ball straight, and choose to intentionally move the ball one way or the other (except for pitch shots, punch shots, putts, etc).

This is to create an "approach angle" which gives them the ability to play the shot to move slightly on purpose......
The golf analogy isn't a very good one. The draw/fade of a golf shot is an effect of the spin on the ball as it goes through the air, which results in a curved path as seen from above. Deflection in pool changes the initial angle. I suppose the pool equivalent to a draw or fade is a masse shot, or, to a lesser extent, swerve. Anyhow, you recognize in your comment that golfers don't draw or fade shots where accuracy is the prime concern, yet you chose to use the shaping of a drive, where the goal is distance with some degree of control, as your example.
our minds don't process straight lines when hitting/throwing/kicking balls......there's always movement, and this is what our minds conform best to......it's natural......and in some cases "super" natural. ;)
Are you referring to the parabolic trajectory of something under the influence of gravity? You may have finally lost me there...

The only real reason to play a thin cut with inside when you don't need it for position and you're not playing rail-first is because you're used to compensating for the deflection it causes.

You've definitely shared some useful ideas on here when it comes to using deflection to create angles and how playing with inside can help keep the cue ball under control, so I did at least consider this for a moment. My conclusion is that, barring the truly supernatural, I would be very surprised to find anyone who is more accurate/precise when applying english than without.
 
"favoring one side of the cue ball".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
It's always better to favor one side of the cue ball or the other to create a zone......you simply can't do that trying to hit the ball perfectly straight for hours on end (or to attempt to win a major tournament).


I didn't say "using english," on the contrary I said "favoring one side of the cue ball (or the other)".

There's a difference.

Not even the greatest shot-maker of all time would want to try to hit "dead center" every time....because if they are just a "hair" off they will unintentionally deflect the cue-ball one way (or the other). 'The Game is the Teacher'



I disagree. If I shoot from the head spot to the center diamond on the foot rail 100 times by hitting the vertical axis of the cue ball, my accuracy and precision will be better than if I try to do the same thing hitting off-center and compensating for squirt and swerve, especially across different speeds.

I'm not suggesting that every shot should be played with center-follow. I am saying that I can more consistently put the cue ball on target with that shot than any other shot.

The golf analogy isn't a very good one. The draw/fade of a golf shot is an effect of the spin on the ball as it goes through the air, which results in a curved path as seen from above. Deflection in pool changes the initial angle. I suppose the pool equivalent to a draw or fade is a masse shot, or, to a lesser extent, swerve. Anyhow, you recognize in your comment that golfers don't draw or fade shots where accuracy is the prime concern, yet you chose to use the shaping of a drive, where the goal is distance with some degree of control, as your example.

Are you referring to the parabolic trajectory of something under the influence of gravity? You may have finally lost me there...

The only real reason to play a thin cut with inside when you don't need it for position and you're not playing rail-first is because you're used to compensating for the deflection it causes.

You've definitely shared some useful ideas on here when it comes to using deflection to create angles and how playing with inside can help keep the cue ball under control, so I did at least consider this for a moment. My conclusion is that, barring the truly supernatural, I would be very surprised to find anyone who is more accurate/precise when applying english than without.
 
My eyes aren't good enough to see any deflection, all I know is when Jay offered up this gem about using low on very thin cuts, it worked (before, I was using outside). Same goes for your TOI concept..it works. And if it's a joke, it's a joke that I use and appreciate.

I have a "theory" about why this works. If you cue low on the cue ball and stroke firmly, you are now hitting the object ball at the lowest possible point, maybe just a hair thinner (below) than if you hit the midline of the object ball. And I mean a HAIR thinner! The difference of even a couple thousandths of an inch can make all the difference on an extremely thin cut shot. But hey, that's pool! :wink:

Crazy as it may sound, when you cue at center ball or above, the cue ball is essentially riding on top of the cloth. When you cue low and stroke firmly you are pressing down on the cloth slightly. Once again think thousandths of an inch. Kapeche?
 
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I didn't say "using english," on the contrary I said "favoring one side of the cue ball (or the other)".

There's a difference.

Not even the greatest shot-maker of all time would want to try to hit "dead center" every time....because if they are just a "hair" off they will unintentionally deflect the cue-ball one way (or the other). 'The Game is the Teacher'

Buddy hit Center Ball better than anyone I ever saw play. When he hit the cue ball it made such a clean sound.
 
The Warriors going to battle at the Challenge of Champions

Buddy rarely hit "center ball," although when he did it sounded like an army of angels going to battle at the 'Challenge of Champions'. ;)


I know this is "common sense," however I'll say it again "the cue ball is the target and the tip is the only direct relationship we have to the Game."

Doesn't it stand to reason that it's easier to create every "shot angle" by using the TIP as a reference point connected to a consistent "target" on the object ball (center or edge is the only target you will ever need).

When the TOI Video is watched with "an open mind," everyone will be able to "Real Eyes" the simplicity of super-accurate shot making and distance will no longer matter.

When you're just connecting to the center or edge and creating angles with your tip, you will be the same distance from the target. The CUE BALL IS THE TARGET and you can control the distance and perception the cue ball gives you EVERY TIME - this is not true with the object ball.

Some people labor for years "trying" to see {a ghost ball} or a contact point on the cue ball (then try to hit the "contact point" with a cue ball "contact point" - talk about challenging).

This is a fruitless pursuit and will lead to many frustrating hours at the table. TOI makes the Game FUN AGAIN, because you no longer have to "think" about ball pocketing, you just "point, connect the dots and click". 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ WILEY


Buddy hit Center Ball better than anyone I ever saw play. When he hit the cue ball it made such a clean sound.
 
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I didn't say "using english," on the contrary I said "favoring one side of the cue ball (or the other)".

There's a difference.

Not even the greatest shot-maker of all time would want to try to hit "dead center" every time....because if they are just a "hair" off they will unintentionally deflect the cue-ball one way (or the other). 'The Game is the Teacher'
Okay. In that case...

Barring the truly supernatural, I would be very surprised to find anyone who is more accurate/precise in hitting the cue ball where they want to when favoring one side of the cue ball than when they are trying to hit "dead center".
 
You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations using "center ball"

Okay. In that case...

Barring the truly supernatural, I would be very surprised to find anyone who is more accurate/precise in hitting the cue ball where they want to when favoring one side of the cue ball than when they are trying to hit "dead center".

For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English. This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket. This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.

There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English," 1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and 2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line". 3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)

You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.

Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.

The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection. I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time.

If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly. To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY?

You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure? How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player? This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down.

You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse? How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).

The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.
 
Yes it does.

I assume we are talking 80 to 89 degrees cuts, English does not throw ob, this reply also to Dr. Dave respectly I disagree. I would agree if there was no cloth friction. Sure if you load cab with chalk maybe..
 
That's not true. Speed and inside english reduce the amount of throw, but there is still some throw (for more info, see the inside english resource page). And outside english (greater than the "gearing" amount) can actually throw the ball in the opposite direction making possible thin cuts with effective cut angles greater than 90 degrees (due to throw alone, and no swerve effects). Demonstrated examples can be found here:

impossible cut shots resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

I used to think exactly that, but when changed to snooker stance and stroke it was clear that I was dead wrong. We only talking throw. Thin English cuts will cause ob to spin
But not throw. Not sure if the collision causes the spin or the english
 
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