Pool suggestions you should avoid.

[Rasta]

First of all, any advice involving throw can also be avoided (unless it involves hitting a rail or 2 frozen balls). I aim and pocket balls all day long with any english I desire and never once to I think about throwing the ball anywhere. Don't waste the brain power on it.

I often utilize throw to accomplish something on a shot. Miscalculating throw is an easy way to miss a shot.

Secondly, cuts are always easier. Sometimes you have to bank a ball; and you do this because you HAVE TO. On second thought, I'll really throw a wench in the banking statement above with this one: What about throw on a bank, then?!

I LOVE long thin cuts, and am not to shabby at them, if I do say so myself. However, my game improved when I realized that sometimes the bank is the easier shot. Very rarely do I ever HAVE to bank.

As for throw on a bank or kick shot, it is advantageous to understand those effects, also.

Rules of thumb are great; they work most of the time. However, they set us up for failure when we do not take the time and energy to understand why they are rules of thumb instead of absolute.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

 

[seymore15074]

Ok, this is my final argument supporting the fact that "you should bank this" is bad advice:

You set up a dead bank and I'll set up what I consider to be a dead cut (straight in off of the spot). We'll shoot them until one of us misses...

 

[seymore15074]

I often utilize throw to accomplish something on a shot. Miscalculating throw is an easy way to miss a shot.

You said it yourself: you use throw to accomplish missing a shot. lol

 

[ShootingArts]

theory and reality

Scott,

I think that you are speaking in general terms, and that is exactly my point, general rules aren't good advice to follow as absolutes. People seem to get very confused when theory meets the green. Younger players who consider themselves students of the game are often impressed when I use a rail to straighten the path of a cue ball or object ball. They think I am increasing the difficulty of the shot for flash, not realizing that I am making the shot the easiest and safest way I know how to.

I would very much like to discuss both of the points you raise at length but I have to admit this isn't the time or the place. I would be hijacking a thread and my time at the keyboard is still very sporadic following a major surgery. I'll tackle these areas separately in my own threads in the next month or so.

Hu

While YOU may not like it, there are some things which are always true. The fact is that all cut shots are easier than bank shots. Any cut shot has only one variable...contact the OB in the correct place, and it goes in the pocket, regardless of what the CB is doing (sliding, rolling, spinning, etc.). A bank shot has many variables...speed, english, natural angle vs. creating the angle, table conditions (cloth and rails)...even the weather. Are banks a necessary part of playing pool? Yes.

As far as the elbow drop issue...to my knowledge there is no shot that can be made by dropping the elbow, that cannot be duplicated without the elbow drop. The pendulum swing is far more accurate (for 90+% of the poolplayers out there) and repeatable, so why do something else, unless it has some strategic advantage?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JoeyA]

The glove... Let's just say that in my experience, I have stomped on any player wearing a glove. I have never seen a semi-pro come in, put on his glove, and play. It is not nessisary. I don't mean NEVER wear a glove, perhaps a particular hall is like an oven, or perhaps you have really really sweaty fingers... Most of the people that I see buy gloves are not taking care of their shafts to their liking--that is the problem. I sand my shafts smooth, and I don't rub them down until they are glossy, I like them smooth and dry. No Q-slick, no leather rubbing, just good smooth wood.



I don't get it.

As to the thing about "get in your innings, it won't hurt your game" refers to league players who sandbag to keep their handicap low". This advice is to be avoided like the plague.

I wear a glove because I have hands that sweat and I also play in a humid part of the country. Powder and the regular washing of hands doesn't do the trick for me. A glove solves the problem. So much for absolutes. But I still liked your list. Where do you play?
JoeyA

 

[seymore15074]

As to the thing about "get in your innings, it won't hurt your game" refers to league players who sandbag to keep their handicap low". This advice is to be avoided like the plague.

I wear a glove because I have hands that sweat and I also play in a humid part of the country. Powder and the regular washing of hands doesn't do the trick for me. A glove solves the problem. So much for absolutes. But I still liked your list. Where do you play?
JoeyA

TO BE AVOIDED CONTINUTED:

11. Sandbagging is worthwhile.
12. Use BHE.

I play around the Pittsburgh, PA area. Oh, btw, I don't use powder either. And I can't play for a while right after washing my hands either...they have to be really dry.

 

[Rasta]

Ok, this is my final argument supporting the fact that "you should bank this" is bad advice:

You set up a dead bank and I'll set up what I consider to be a dead cut (straight in off of the spot). We'll shoot them until one of us misses...

A spot shot is not a terribly difficult cut. In fact, it's a pretty high percentage shot. How about the same experiment, but you have to cut 89 degrees with the cueball being a table length away. That bank is looking awfully good at that point.

No one is saying you "should" bank. What is being said is that cut shots are not *always* the best choice.

Good rolls,
Rasta

 

[Cornerman]

The glove... Let's just say that in my experience, I have stomped on any player wearing a glove. I have never seen a semi-pro come in, put on his glove, and play.

John Schmidt won the US Open with a glove. He's not the only pro playing with one.

It is not nessisary.

I'm glad you don't think it's necessary for you. But, you don't represent everyone. Physical attributes of the person can necessitate the use of a glove. Surely you understand this.

Fred

 

[seymore15074]

A spot shot is not a terribly difficult cut. How about the same experiment, but you have to cut 89 degrees with the cueball being a table length away. That bank is looking awfully good at that point.

No one is saying you "should" bank. What is being said is that cut shots are not *always* the best choice.

Good rolls,
Rasta

Whatever. I'd still cut it. In fact, I'm over it. Play your game, I'll play mine.

 

[Rasta]

You said it yourself: you use throw to accomplish missing a shot. lol

No, that's not what I said. If you are going to paraphrase my words, please maintain the original meaning.

A cut shot using center ball will not usually send the OB in the same direction as a cut shot (same point of contact on the OB) using side english. Failure to take throw into consideration is a good way to miss the shot.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

 

[Cornerman]

This is another area where I probably depart from the conventional wisdom, as I feel that squirt compensation is not something that can be taught via some system, but rather something that the shooter must develop a feel for.

Forgive me if I sound like an ass, but it's seems clear to me that you really don't understand backhand english and its use.

I absolutely agree that squirt compensation needs to be developed with feel, but if you understand backhand english and its use, the development of feel is given a tremendous head start. From a teaching point of view, I don't know any other method to convey the idea of squirt to a beginning player that's better than backhand english, and more specifically the aim & pivot method.

I don't understand how you got on an idea of masking flaws in the stroke. Statements like that again make me believe that you've gotten some bad information about backhand english. Maybe you're talking about something else that's not backhand english? In which case, this entire thread ends up being like every other thread.

Fred

 

[Rasta]

I'd still cut it.

I would to if I'm playing for fun, but not in a tournament, a money game, or even serious practice sessions. In those situations I'll usually take the easier bank shot.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

 

[Cornerman]

I meant parallel as in he lines up parallel on the same line as if he were using center ball, with the exception of compensation. But he does not get down and line up on center, and pivot or use back hand english or anything like that.

This post epitomizes the entire misunderstanding of the thread. If he lined up with compensation, that no longer is parallel english. We see all too many people basing their argument on the wrong definition of parallel english.

You can also do the backhand english compensation before you ever get down on your shot. For those that truly do not understand what backhand english is, they won't understand this statement.

Fred

 

[Scott Lee]

There are more variables with a cut shot than just point of contact. Shot speed and throw also need to be taken into consideration, just to name two more variables that can make a difference.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

I have to disagree. Regardless of what compensation you make on a cut shot, due to shot speed and/or throw, the only variable is to contact the OB in the correct place, in order for it to be pocketed. I thought I made that clear in my earlier post. In other words, REGARDLESS of what action is put on the CB, as long as you strike the OB in the right place, it will go in the pocket. Banks, on the other hand, may be missed, even though you contacted the OB at the correct place...due to the factors I mentioned, speed and cloth being the two most common culprits in missed banks. I will add that playing banks is part of playing pool...and many players "feel" more comfortable with some banks than others feel with cut shots.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Cornerman]

I would to if I'm playing for fun, but not in a tournament, a money game, or even serious practice sessions. In those situations I'll usually take the easier bank shot.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

You know this and so does everyone else. There are no absolutes. There are times when the bank shot is the right shot, but the reasons are a combination of factors. And the reason usually revolves around the cueball, not the object ball.

Fred

 

[Aaron_S]

Forgive me if I sound like an ass, but it's seems clear to me that you really don't understand backhand english and its use.

LOL. Well, that's always a possibility. I have successfully used BHE before, though; I just don't see it as the ultimate cure-all for squirt compensation.

I absolutely agree that squirt compensation needs to be developed with feel, but if you understand backhand english and its use, the development of feel is given a tremendous head start.

But at what cost. I don't disagree that BHE works; never did. My only point in this is that, for a beginning player who is still trying to develop a straight stroke and learn how to aim, the introduction of BHE into the mix could be harmful to their stroke. I fully expected a lynch mob to come after me when I said it, so no surprise here. It's just my opinion, after all.

From a teaching point of view, I don't know any other method to convey the idea of squirt to a beginning player that's better than backhand english, and more specifically the aim & pivot method.

How about just explaining the reason behind squirt, showing the student how to measure it, and giving them tips on how to limit it's effects? I feel that that's a lot less intrusive than introducing them to a method that forces them to stroke the cue on a line that's skewed against their stance and the line of the shot. I just feel that it's a little extreme, and better left for more advanced players. Again, just an opinion.

I don't understand how you got on an idea of masking flaws in the stroke. Statements like that again make me believe that you've gotten some bad information about backhand english.

I'll admit that was a strange tangent that DoomCue and I got off on. Defininitely not a well thought-out post on my part. Guilty as charged, but I suspect that I'm not the only one who's ever regretted posting something.

Maybe you're talking about something else that's not backhand english?

As I stated in a previous post, I use BHE to describe the aim-and-pivot system. Not sure if my use of the terminology is normal.

Respectfully,
Aaron

 

[Rasta]

I have to disagree. Regardless of what compensation you make on a cut shot, due to shot speed and/or throw, the only variable is to contact the OB in the correct place, in order for it to be pocketed. I thought I made that clear in my earlier post. In other words, REGARDLESS of what action is put on the CB, as long as you strike the OB in the right place, it will go in the pocket. Banks, on the other hand, may be missed, even though you contacted the OB at the correct place...due to the factors I mentioned, speed and cloth being the two most common culprits in missed banks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

It has been my experience that throw varies with shot speed. In other words, the same OB contact point that makes the OB at one speed can miss the ball at another speed. It has to do with the ratio of the cueball's translational speed and its rotational speed.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

 

[VIProfessor]

This post epitomizes the entire misunderstanding of the thread. If he lined up with compensation, that no longer is parallel english. We see all too many people basing their argument on the wrong definition of parallel english.

You can also do the backhand english compensation before you ever get down on your shot. For those that truly do not understand what backhand english is, they won't understand this statement.

Fred

Hey Fred,

What's up, bro? I guess this is a continuation of the discussion we had on another thread, but I suspect that the term "Back Hand English" leads to confusion. My impression is that it usually refers to the "aim and pivot method". This is reinforced by the fact that the name itself implies an adjustment by the backhand. If you adjust your aiming line before you get in your stance, you are simply aligning your body to a new aiming point and in my view, you are no longer using backhand english--you are simply changing your point of aim to compensate for deflection.

As to the aim and pivot method, it seems fair to agree with you that this is the best method to quickly demonstrate to a beginner the concept of adjustment for deflection. The question that I pose to this forum however, is although it may the quickest, is it the best? When you aim and pivot, using left english for example, how is the adjustment made, is it by moving the back hand? If so, what about the elbow, the shoulder and the head? Do you then lean to the right to bring everything over together? If so, how does this impact on your balance? Are you not using your muscles to adjust and hold you at this new approach angle and are you not then subject to a greater possibility of movement during the stroke? Do you shuffle your feet then? If so, why not get up and readjust the whole thing?

My point is simple. Although this may be the slower way, I advocate teaching students about deflection and setting up practice shots to aid in their mastery of the concept. My favorite is with the object ball and cue ball both on the center string, with the object ball one diamond above the side pockets and the cue ball one diamond below (later, two diamonds below), and cutting the ball in the corner using inside english. By practicing these shots in sessions and on their own, they teach themselves exactly how speed and cueing control deflection based on their cue and their stroke. In this way one learns to adjust for deflection without negatively impacting the fundamentals.

 

[Cornerman]

As to the aim and pivot method, it seems fair to agree with you that this is the best method to quickly demonstrate to a beginner the concept of adjustment for deflection. The question that I pose to this forum however, is although it may the quickest, is it the best? When you aim and pivot, using left english for example, how is the adjustment made, is it by moving the back hand? If so, what about the elbow, the shoulder and the head? Do you then lean to the right to bring everything over together? .

This is a good question. The aim and pivot gets the new line. And most of the time, I am down on the ball when I pivot. For left-hand english, I aim with center ball, and move the backhand to the right to get my english line. But after the new line is made, I make the body adjustment. I can stand back up and go through my normal pre-shot routine or I can have my elbow pre-loaded so that the direction I pivot will get me inline without me having to get up. Or I can lean. But that's just me.

But again, the aim and pivot is just to get the new line. It's not meant to be anything else other than that. How you get your body lined up is entirely up to you.

Someone mentioned that Efren doesn't move his backhand when he's down on the shot. To that, I say watch him some more. There aren't many players that don't at some point adjust their english while down, never getting back up again.

I wish I could have video'd Nick Varner doing the backhand english thing. He says he doesn't use it, but watching him, he clearly does. I asked him about it, and he said, "oh I'm just locking in where I want to hit the cueball." He did it while he was down on the shot.

Fred

 

[teambizy]

I have been a b player now for some time so i thought i would take some lessons from a good instructor from Detroit. This particuliar instructor is a very strong player and he always drops his elbow to allow a big follow through. He told me that in order to achieve maximum performance on draw and follow shots dropping the elbow helps achieve this. He also teaches his students to do the same. Tell me what you think about this technique.