Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please
- Thread starter MikeJanis
- Start date
MikeJanis said:
That is the EXACT rule in force they used at the Skins Billiards Championship.
In fact, at the players meeting, all participants were told they could not question any rack. They could look at the rack, but they could not ask for a re-rack. Scott Smith the referee racked all racks at this even on TV.
It would be nice to have neutral rackers, but I understand economics makes this impossible, especially at regional tour events.
JAM
My opinion here is that you, Mike, are a small part of the problem by your resistance to CHANGES. Sometimes changing something that is not working is the simplest of solutions. Relax your reluctance to change something in this racking problem and I think you will find a solution to your problem.
FWIW, my solution would be to:
1.) Pattern rack, with all contestants racking the balls in the same pattern.
2.) Each players racks his own rack. Failure to do so would result in a forfeit of that particular game. Failure to do so after one forfeit would result in loss of match.
3.) Have the 9-ball on the spot instead of the 1-ball on the rack (move the rack forward).
4.) Make the 9-ball a "called-ball". If it is made on the break, it would be spotted. IMO, I don't think this rule would be necessary if the above three rules were implemented first.
Just my $.02 worth.
Maniac
FWIW, my solution would be to:
1.) Pattern rack, with all contestants racking the balls in the same pattern.
2.) Each players racks his own rack. Failure to do so would result in a forfeit of that particular game. Failure to do so after one forfeit would result in loss of match.
3.) Have the 9-ball on the spot instead of the 1-ball on the rack (move the rack forward).
4.) Make the 9-ball a "called-ball". If it is made on the break, it would be spotted. IMO, I don't think this rule would be necessary if the above three rules were implemented first.
Just my $.02 worth.
Maniac
I love a nice rack.
"random"
Mike,
Deliberately positioning or repositioning certain balls around in the rack is pattern racking. Random racking is simply grabbing the balls and putting them in the rack and then positioning the one and nine which are are the only two balls that are supposed to be racked in a pattern. Anytime you position any other balls you are pattern racking. Any deliberate positioning of any ball in the rack other than the one and the nine is illegal according to my understanding of the rules concerning random racking.
I can easily produce eight variations of what is generally considered to be the toughest pattern rack in nine ball, I use it all the time for my practice rack. That will see me through most tournament sets. Although I would never be using the same pattern twice I would very much be pattern racking. When I deliberately place the two ball to the rear of the rack and the three back to the front even though it only involves three balls(the one is involved by default) I am still pattern racking.
If someone pattern racks after the balls are in the rack it is obvious, it is very difficult to prove if they pattern as they gather the balls and drop the balls in the rack. However both are illegal. The difficulty proving pattern racking is the major reason I disagree with "random racking" rules.
I think that Bob Jewett was involved with the latest revisions to the WPA rules and perhaps he can clarify this for us.
Hu
MikeJanis said:
Mike,
Deliberately positioning or repositioning certain balls around in the rack is pattern racking. Random racking is simply grabbing the balls and putting them in the rack and then positioning the one and nine which are are the only two balls that are supposed to be racked in a pattern. Anytime you position any other balls you are pattern racking. Any deliberate positioning of any ball in the rack other than the one and the nine is illegal according to my understanding of the rules concerning random racking.
I can easily produce eight variations of what is generally considered to be the toughest pattern rack in nine ball, I use it all the time for my practice rack. That will see me through most tournament sets. Although I would never be using the same pattern twice I would very much be pattern racking. When I deliberately place the two ball to the rear of the rack and the three back to the front even though it only involves three balls(the one is involved by default) I am still pattern racking.
If someone pattern racks after the balls are in the rack it is obvious, it is very difficult to prove if they pattern as they gather the balls and drop the balls in the rack. However both are illegal. The difficulty proving pattern racking is the major reason I disagree with "random racking" rules.
I think that Bob Jewett was involved with the latest revisions to the WPA rules and perhaps he can clarify this for us.
Hu
MikeJanis said:
A month ago I had to rack for two crybabies I won't mention and the set went on as should. Afterwards the bigger crybaby came over and thanked me. He said he liked my rack because I didn't pattern on them.
When I rack, I use the same pattern for both players each and every rack and always have. I near LMAO, but just said thanks.
ironman said:
Thats funny. I think AZ needs to add a TD only forum.
When I have to rack for the players I start off using this rack
1
63
895
27
4
I always rack acting as if I am the opponent and will many times change the 6-3 and 2-7 depending upon what side they are breaking from
Most times the 2 ends up behind the rack on the rail ans the 1-3 are down table making it a little tougher to run out.
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I think this is what should be
I think pattern racking with a set pattern should be the rule since there is no way to insure random racking if either player racks. I suspect that the crybaby was thanking you for not using a pattern that makes things tougher on the breaker. I don't care what pattern is used myself but it would be nice if it was always the same or a mirror image of the same pattern so as to not discriminate between people that break from the left or right sides of the table.
Hu
ironman said:
I think pattern racking with a set pattern should be the rule since there is no way to insure random racking if either player racks. I suspect that the crybaby was thanking you for not using a pattern that makes things tougher on the breaker. I don't care what pattern is used myself but it would be nice if it was always the same or a mirror image of the same pattern so as to not discriminate between people that break from the left or right sides of the table.
Hu
MikeJanis said:
We could also make 9-ball a call shot game and have to break from the center spot and ......................
__________________
Mike Janis
Mike, I wasn't trying to get under your skin with my post on this thread. Hu advised pattern racking. So did I. So you responded to my post with something very different to what you responded to Hu's post with.
I just alluded to the fact that change (or "progress") is sometimes a good thing. Or, you could just keep it like it is and keep on hearing all the "pissing and moaning". After all, it's your choice. But, you DID ask for opinions. Sorry for giving mine.
Maniac
MikeJanis said:
Mike, this IS defensive pattern racking though. Just because you're changing the ball positions does not make it random. You are changing them to specific locations with the intention of creating a difficult layout. That's not random placement because you're basically just optimizing a pattern.
Personally, I'm not against pattern racking, as long as it's permitted by the TD.
But since you pattern rack for a defensive advantage, I don't think it should be a bad thing to pattern rack for an offensive advantage in a hypothetical rack-your-own situation.
MikeJanis said:
The problem though is this key part of his post:
donny mills said:
OK, if it is Donny, you would know that he can rack better. But what if it is someone else? How do you know if they are bluffing or if they really are just bad at racking?
There are a lot of people who stink at getting a perfect rack. And there are those road people who, like a previous poster mentioned, are experts at getting racks that "look" good and break good, but don't pocket a ball.
And then there are rack-your-own experts.... but the thing is, a perfect rack will pocket the wing ball. Why do we need to worry about anyone giving them self a "riggged" rack when a perfectly tight rack pockets the wing ball?
Ta-da! I'm on it.
16. Rack at Nine Ball
As stated in Rule 2.2, balls other than the one and nine are placed randomly in the rack and should not be set in any particular order during any rack. If the referee is not racking, and a player believes that his opponent is intentionally placing balls within the rack, he may bring this to the attention of a tournament official. If the tournament official determines that the player is intentionally positioning balls in the rack, the player will be given an official warning to refrain from doing so. Once warned, should the player continue with intentional positioning of balls in the rack, he shall be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct.
MikeJanis said:
2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.
16. Rack at Nine Ball
As stated in Rule 2.2, balls other than the one and nine are placed randomly in the rack and should not be set in any particular order during any rack. If the referee is not racking, and a player believes that his opponent is intentionally placing balls within the rack, he may bring this to the attention of a tournament official. If the tournament official determines that the player is intentionally positioning balls in the rack, the player will be given an official warning to refrain from doing so. Once warned, should the player continue with intentional positioning of balls in the rack, he shall be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct.
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