Power Draw-Mike Massey-2 ways

LAMas said:
A small diameter shaft will not be as stiff as a broom stick. The small diameter shaft will bend down from the impact of a draw shot as it's tip compresses and will follow the circumference downward from the bridge. So for a given contact spot for draw, the smaller diameter or more flexible the front end of the shaft, the better the draw. Increased contact time?

A pendulum stroke, if the contact to the CB is perpendicular to the slate, will drop the tip of the cue down to the cloth effecting the similarf/same downward motion as the thin/flexible shaft.

If both are in concert - more draw.

Just sayin,

Merry Xmas y'all.:wink::thumbup:l
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"A pendulum stroke, if the contact to the CB is perpendicular to the slate, will drop the tip of the cue down to the cloth effecting the similarf/same downward motion as the thin/flexible shaft."

WHAT? That's impossible! The tip drops long after the cue ball is gone.
randyg
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Power is a mathematical function of velocity. People stumble over this all the time.

It makes no sense to say it is any combination of "X, not Y", where X and Y could be power, force, speed, velocity, etc.

Not trying to single you out Randy, MANY people on this board don't know the meaning of many of these physics terms.

Any amount of velocity for even the slightest instant *IS* power.

KMRUNOUT
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Agree. My problem is the word POWER means strength to most amatuer palyers. A loose cradle produces more speed.
randyg
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Naji,

It is sentences like these where you go wrong. You are saying yourself that there was a *difference* in the length of the lever. He drew the same distance *in both shots*. Yet you ascribe the amount of draw to the longer lever. This is simply illogical.

The correct conclusion that anyone would *logically* make from your sentence above is that since the result was the same, and the length of lever was different, then that is NOT the cause for the outcome.


KMRUNOUT
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Possibly you miss interpreted my "lever" thing. What i mean is in 1st vid his shoulder was higher (longer lever-like longer golf club, or in break shot) and seem that he shot it like he is describing in 2nd vid. In Second vid his shoulder does not drop, and have shorter lever (just his arm without dropping shoulder) also shorter follow through.
 
Kerry...While you are technically correct, the difference is a loose cradle and letting the weight of the cue & timing create the stroke speed; versus tight grip and muscling the cuestick through the CB. The latter is difficult to quantify, while the former is easy to quantify. However, in the end they are both inanimate objects (cuestick/wood and cueball/plastic), and both ways will work. Which one is easier to perform, more accurate and repeatable, imo, is the obvious one...the pendulum swing.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

KMRUNOUT said:
Any amount of velocity for even the slightest instant *IS* power.

KMRUNOUT
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Table condtions are also a HUGE variable.

Clean, dry fast cloth and shiny polished balls are worth a table length alone, all else being equal. Kind of like a yoyo sleeping due to string conditions.
 
randyg said:
Agree. My problem is the word POWER means strength to most amatuer palyers. A loose cradle produces more speed.
randyg
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No question Randy! A lot of people ask me how do I break so hard with control. I usually tell them two things: 1) stop trying to break "hard", meaning don't try to muscle it so much, and 2) use a loose grip on the cue. I think your word "cradle" is even better.

I get a lot of puzzled looks when I say "don't try to break hard." Once you know what I mean, you will know what I mean lol!

KMRUNOUT
 
naji said:
Possibly you miss interpreted my "lever" thing. What i mean is in 1st vid his shoulder was higher (longer lever-like longer golf club, or in break shot) and seem that he shot it like he is describing in 2nd vid. In Second vid his shoulder does not drop, and have shorter lever (just his arm without dropping shoulder) also shorter follow through.
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I agree completely with what you say here. He doesn't really do what he says he does in the 2nd video. However, he does do that in the first video.

To me, I think his mechanics look a lot better in the 2nd video.

KMRUNOUT
 
Scott Lee said:
Kerry...While you are technically correct, the difference is a loose cradle and letting the weight of the cue & timing create the stroke speed; versus tight grip and muscling the cuestick through the CB. The latter is difficult to quantify, while the former is easy to quantify. However, in the end they are both inanimate objects (cuestick/wood and cueball/plastic), and both ways will work. Which one is easier to perform, more accurate and repeatable, imo, is the obvious one...the pendulum swing.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Agreed Scott! We are gonna have to hook up soon! I got a 4" extension for my cue that goes in between the shaft and the butt. Mike Webb made it for me and it is AWESOME!!! It is clear that this will be a game changer for me. Just for laughs, I set up a stroke test shot, straight in, short distance from cueball to object ball, near the side rail close to the far corner pocket. I wanted to see how much draw I could get with a nearly pinned elbow. 2 table lengths!! And it was EASY...effortless, accurate, REPEATABLE!


KMRUNOUT
 
Need To See Contact Point

I have seen Mike draw this shoot many times over the years.

I still cannot see where he contacts the cueball.

It would also be nice to see the angle of the cue relative to the table, at contact.

Maybe Dr. Dave can show this with his high speed cameras.

Is there a way to slow down the video on youtube?
 
BarneyCalip said:
I have seen Mike draw this shoot many times over the years.

I still cannot see where he contacts the cueball.

It would also be nice to see the angle of the cue relative to the table, at contact.

Maybe Dr. Dave can show this with his high speed cameras.

Is there a way to slow down the video on youtube?
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I think you can see this stuff fairly clearly here:
He is hitting very close to the miscue limit (with lots of cue speed) for maximum draw.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I think you can see this stuff fairly clearly here:
He is hitting very close to the miscue limit (with lots of cue speed) for maximum draw.

Regards,
Dave
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Thanks Dr. if you would i like your input on the shot on the vid below- Seconds 1-2 note his elbow does not drop in fact his stroke is not ideal, his follow through is not much here, yet he did the draw shot very effectively, should we conclude if you hit the draw shot with a lot of speed, velocity power, energy what ever you want to call it and at lowest point possible on cb , the CB will draw same as if you shot it as low with long follow through? Thanks for any input.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg
 
naji said:
Thanks Dr. if you would i like your input on the shot on the vid below- Seconds 1-2 note his elbow does not drop in fact his stroke is not ideal, his follow through is not much here, yet he did the draw shot very effectively, should we conclude if you hit the draw shot with a lot of speed, velocity power, energy what ever you want to call it and at lowest point possible on cb , the CB will draw same as if you shot it as low with long follow through? Thanks for any input.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg
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The follow through has no direct effect on the shot; although, a good follow through is usually an indicator of a relaxed stroke. In the other video (and at the end of this video), Mike drops the elbow with significant follow through after CB contact. This isn't required, but it might be more comfortable for some people. Although, with this particular shot, Mike needs to be careful to not smash his knuckles on the rail, which could occur with early elbow drop on this shot. Maybe that's why he doesn't drop the elbow (or why he drops it late).

FYI, I have more info and resources related to follow through here:

Regards,
Dave
 
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naji said:
Thanks Dr. if you would i like your input on the shot on the vid below- Seconds 1-2 note his elbow does not drop in fact his stroke is not ideal, his follow through is not much here, yet he did the draw shot very effectively, should we conclude if you hit the draw shot with a lot of speed, velocity power, energy what ever you want to call it and at lowest point possible on cb , the CB will draw same as if you shot it as low with long follow through? Thanks for any input.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg
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Naji,

This is exactly what I have been saying in these threads recently. I'm sure Randy, Dr. Dave, Neil, and others have been saying the same.

The *amount* of draw is determined *only* by the contact point on the cueball and the velocity of the cuestick at impact. Hopefully this Mike Masse 2 video comparison helps solidify that concept. These two videos you posted have proved quite useful!

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Naji,

This is exactly what I have been saying in these threads recently. I'm sure Randy, Dr. Dave, Neil, and others have been saying the same.

The *amount* of draw is determined *only* by the contact point on the cueball and the velocity of the cuestick at impact. Hopefully this Mike Masse 2 video comparison helps solidify that concept. These two videos you posted have proved quite useful!

KMRUNOUT
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I agree 100% thanks to you, Dr. Dave, Randy and Neil and all. I am glad i find the other video of Mike other wise i would have been stuck on my long follow through only for draw shots, which is better of course, but the follow is not really needed as much as i thought, or dropping elbow is not needed much either.
 
naji said:
I agree 100% thanks to you, Dr. Dave, Randy and Neil and all. I am glad i find the other video of Mike other wise i would have been stuck on my long follow through only for draw shots, which is better of course, but the follow is not really needed as much as i thought, or dropping elbow is not needed much either.
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Trust me, I was convinced that a long follow through was required. Now I don't worry so much about the follow through, and instead pay attention to a straight, accurate stroke at the right speed, hitting the right spot. I'd say overall, I miscue a bit less on power draw shots.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Naji,

This is exactly what I have been saying in these threads recently. I'm sure Randy, Dr. Dave, Neil, and others have been saying the same.

The *amount* of draw is determined *only* by the contact point on the cueball and the velocity of the cuestick at impact. Hopefully this Mike Masse 2 video comparison helps solidify that concept. These two videos you posted have proved quite useful!

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...


In measuring kinetic energy you have left out the mass of the cue as the third critical variable in the equation. A heavier cue traveling at equal velocity will transfer more energy to the cue ball resulting in more draw. This is math not opinion.
 
metmot said:
In measuring kinetic energy you have left out the mass of the cue as the third critical variable in the equation. A heavier cue traveling at equal velocity will transfer more energy to the cue ball resulting in more draw. This is math not opinion.
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True up to a point where cue becomes too heavy to move as fast as light weight one. I am sure someone did a study on this and recorded optimum cue weight that delivers most velocity. Remember though we are talking loose grip loose wrist no mussel influence
 
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