BTW do you know if Celeris will release mobile version of VP for Bada system (Samsung Wave)?
Practice Aiming on Your Computer
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
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BTW do you know if Celeris will release mobile version of VP for Bada system (Samsung Wave)?
The tracking lines can't be used to aim in any way at all. They only show the results of aiming. Moving the stick back and forth until the tracking lines tell you the shot will go isn't "aiming".
But you (inadvertently) make an interesting point. VP may very well use the ghost ball principle to know where a given CB/OB alignment will make the OB go. This is because the ghost ball principle gives an aiming solution that a "robot" like VP can follow precisely, unlike all of Hal Houle's aiming systems.
pj
chgo
Ditto
Ditto. I think my game has gone up a ball in the last 6 months since I purchased VP Mobile for my iPhone. In that time I have played significantly LESS real pool - due to work and family commitments - but when I do get to the table my aim and position play is better and I attribute a lot of the improvement to what I have learned from playing VP so much.
If anyone knows how to do the following on VP Mobile for iPhone let me know, because they are my only (minor) complaints.
Thanks
I have VP for my iphone, play it daily on my train rides to work or doing my business in the bathroom
I believe its different for iphone than on a PC. I'm an Apple guy, so I'm not able to play it on my computer.
I know it sounds nuts, but since I'm not able to play much pool (work and family) I think VP on my phone helps keep my pool mind running and helps aim.
Ditto. I think my game has gone up a ball in the last 6 months since I purchased VP Mobile for my iPhone. In that time I have played significantly LESS real pool - due to work and family commitments - but when I do get to the table my aim and position play is better and I attribute a lot of the improvement to what I have learned from playing VP so much.
If anyone knows how to do the following on VP Mobile for iPhone let me know, because they are my only (minor) complaints.
- Push out in 9-ball
- Quit and restart at any time (it's annoying to have to sit and watch the CPU (Curly) run an 8-pack)
Thanks
Well one game has taken advantage of next gen graphics, that would be Hustle Kings on the Playstation 3. It's even compatible with that new motion controller Playstation has made. It looks good but I haven't gotten around to trying it.
Hal Houle's aiming systems work for PEOPLE. People make diagrams on paper that they then transfer to a computer. So it's only natural that the creator of VP or any pool game would use simple geometry to aim with.
The computer can also accurately place the "ghost" ball every time perfectly which a human being cannot.
However YOU don't know that a robot cannot be programmed to use Hal's systems.
I am pretty sure that robots are being fed a lot more math to do much more complicated things than making pool shots in video games.
If Dr. Dave is correct and Hal's systems (CTE in particular) all boil down to an effective bridge distance then any programmer could use that and figure out how to apply CTE rules to aiming in a video game. I suppose because I am also not a software programmer or engineer.
Time will tell whether Hal's systems can be or even need to be implemented into a computer program. In the meantime they are superb for human beings to use when playing pool and your suggestion that people can use Virtual Pool to train themselves in the application of Hal's systems is an excellent one.
Bridge distance + shift distance. These two measurements are the forward/back (bridge distance) + left/right (shift distance) measurements of a simple x/y grid that can locate a point on a two-dimensional surface like a pool table. It can't be done with just one of the axes; you need both.
Except that there are no "CTE rules" that specify shift distance + bridge distance to anything like the precision necessary. And if there were such "CTE rules" they'd be too complicated for players to use. Pivoting just isn't suited for simple robotic precision - that's how we know it's a feel "system".
Programming or engineering expertise aren't needed to know this. It's relatively simple geometry and logic, as I've told you many times. Those just aren't your strong suits.
Hal's systems are too vague to be computerized.
Well, they help those who use them and may be "superb" for you, but that's probably overboard as a general description. You're right that they're for humans, though - because humans come equipped with the necessary computing power to make the leap from the vague and general instructions of Hal's systems to the precision needed to play pool. That computer is our subconscious capacity to aim by feel.
VP can be used to train our subconscious aiming ability, which is useful for all aiming methods, including Hal's vague and general "systems".
As usual, your descriptions are also vague and general, relying on the reader's subconscious interpretation to suggest the specific meanings that you want them to draw, which are not supported by actual, precise facts. Much like the way Hal's systems work.
pj
chgo
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Sorry Pat, were you saying something?
Was it use VP to train and go to qualifed instructors to learn the proper and precise steps to use CTE because you don't have them?
Would you like a list of those instructors to augment your computer training?
Because in addition to the excelllent resource that Virtual Pool provides there are also many excellent instructors teaching several Hal Houle aiming methods now. This wasn't avaiable ten years ago.
So I fully agree with you if what you are saying is use VP when you can't be at a table and go to a qualified and certified instructor when you can't.
Although honestly I find your advice to play VP while at work to be kind of bad, especially in an economy where jobs are hard to come by. But I guess you probably meant don't get caught.
Was it use VP to train and go to qualifed instructors to learn the proper and precise steps to use CTE because you don't have them?
Would you like a list of those instructors to augment your computer training?
Because in addition to the excelllent resource that Virtual Pool provides there are also many excellent instructors teaching several Hal Houle aiming methods now. This wasn't avaiable ten years ago.
So I fully agree with you if what you are saying is use VP when you can't be at a table and go to a qualified and certified instructor when you can't.
Although honestly I find your advice to play VP while at work to be kind of bad, especially in an economy where jobs are hard to come by. But I guess you probably meant don't get caught.
Nothing you need to be bothered with, John. It's meant for readers who are open to learning something about Hal's "systems".
No, John, that's your usual misinterpretation, but thanks for the opportunity to re-emphasize my point:
Pivot systems don't, and can't, have steps precise enough to aim without feel. It's just not feasible for something so inherently vague as a "pivot" (the word "pivot" is actually a misnomer that implies a much more precise instruction than is actually given).
Thanks again,
pj
chgo
Ive got a PS3, i have to check it out
I see. And how many "pivot" systems do you know? Can you describe any of them and provide instructions on how to do them?
When you say "don't" and "can't" then I assume that means you know the instructions of at least one such system but actually the implication is that you know the instructions to all of them.
I am certain that a "robot" can be programmed to "pivot aim". I can't do it and neither can you. And since you yourself cannot "pivot aim" either due to the fact, as near as I can ascertain, that you do not KNOW the actual steps involved I don't see your opinion as to whether a robot can be programmed to aim/align this way as worth anything.
Maybe when you come back to the forum with clear instructions on pivot systems as well as some experience then your opinion will carry more weight. As it stands it's still meaningless.
BHE and FHE are not align-and-pivot "aiming systems" like CTE, but they are "pivot systems" used to compensate for squirt and swerve when using English. There are clearly defined and involve absolutely no judgment or feel or adjustment. And they work very well, provided your bridge is at the natural pivot point of the shaft, which can be easily determined per the procedures here:
Regards,
Dave
Of course not. Neither can you. Neither can Spidey. Neither can cleary. That's the point, John. "Instructions" can't be provided because clear, systematic, precise "instructions" are impossible with so-called pivot systems - because so-called pivot systems are feel systems.
It doesn't take a computer programmer or an engineer or more than about five minutes of hearing about pivot systems to know that, without lessons or a DVD or "trying it" (however you think somebody can do that without "instructions"). But apparently it does take more sense than any of you guys have.
pj
chgo
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We're using "pivot" to refer to aiming systems like CTE, 90/90, etc., even though they're not really pivot systems. The word "pivot" implies a well defined pivot point, like the ones used for BHE and FHE. But the "pivot" aiming systems don't provide anything so well defined, and so shouldn't really be called "pivot" systems at all. That's the point being made.
pj
chgo
When virtual pool first came out, I purchased the game and played it non-stop. It's a fun game and it's very useful in experimenting with certain scenarios such as break shots, clusters, holding the CB with certain angles, etc.
I never found it good when it came to practicing anything physical (aiming being one of them). The reason for this is because you're seeing a 2D rendition of 3D space. It's very difficult to perceive certain alignment lines on a computer screen. I find I can align far better in real life than I could in the game. You're losing the "in between" area between the CB and the OB.
There's a big difference in "actual space" and "rendered space." Your brain sees the two very differently. I find that I play better in real life than I do in VP without any line guides. Some will say the exact opposite.
Anyways, I think VP is a super learning tool. In aiming, however, your eyes see a real-life shot totally differently than a small CB on a 12" pool table on the monitor. Hope that makes sense.
I never found it good when it came to practicing anything physical (aiming being one of them). The reason for this is because you're seeing a 2D rendition of 3D space. It's very difficult to perceive certain alignment lines on a computer screen. I find I can align far better in real life than I could in the game. You're losing the "in between" area between the CB and the OB.
There's a big difference in "actual space" and "rendered space." Your brain sees the two very differently. I find that I play better in real life than I do in VP without any line guides. Some will say the exact opposite.
Anyways, I think VP is a super learning tool. In aiming, however, your eyes see a real-life shot totally differently than a small CB on a 12" pool table on the monitor. Hope that makes sense.
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I agree with the gist of your post; however CTE and 90/90 do use a "pivot" even if the pivot point is not "fixed" relative to the bridge. To use CTE and 90/90 effectively for a wide range of shots, either the alignment or the "effective pivot length" must be varied (consciously or subconsciously) with shot distance and cut angle, as described and illustrated in detail here:
I know you know all of this already; but judging from many of the CTE and 90/90 posts recently (in other threads), many of the CTE and 90/90 proponents still refuse to acknowledge these basic truths. I don't know why they are so resistant, because acknowledging how and why CTE and 90/90 work does not diminish the potential value of these systems, IMO.
Regards,
Dave
Are they? You know this how? Just because no one has explained it to you "precisely"?
I expect that if a programmer heard about them from YOU then he wouldn't be able to do much with it.
Who knows what a programmer could do with the information they would get from a qualified instructor? You don't for sure.
All you can do is speculate because you don't know any pivot systems.
Let's take you, "pivot" aiming's most passionate defender, as an example. I spent hours with you recently, face-to-face at a pool table, while you tried to "explain it to me precisely". What I heard was sincere, but incomprehensible gibberish. You've tried to say that I "just don't get it", but I don't think anybody reading your posts vs. mine has much doubt who is likely to "get it" and who isn't.
Combine that with the fact that nobody has ever produced clear, precise instructions here or anywhere else, despite trying many times with posted videos and written word.
You do the math. Oh, sorry...
pj
chgo
I disagree. Procedures, along with precise explanations and illustrations for how and why they can work, can be found here:
Regards,
Dave
hmmm Now I'm interested, I almost got the hustle kings game, but now that I know you can use the PS3 move I'm really interested.
I always get frustrated with PC pool games becuase my aim sucks, I'd rather go downstairs in the basement and play "real" pool!