Practice the fundamentals until?

N

NervousNovice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am practicing straight-in shots across the diagonal of the table, with the object ball at the center and the cue ball one diamond from the short rail, using center ball only and try to shoot them hard. I want to straighten up my stroke and alignment and make it automatic.

Usually I can pocket the object ball but the cue ball doesn't stay on the diagonal line. So I'm not hitting it dead on straight in, merely the pocket is big enough. I notice that although I position my cue tip very close to the cue ball and maintain that alignment during my warm-up strokes, once I pull back, switch my focus to the object ball, and then pull my trigger, something changes.

I believe, ideally, the warm-up strokes should be smooth, slow, and relax, and when you finally shoot, it should merely be a continuation of the same relaxed warm-up stroke, maintaining that same style, but at a faster speed with some force. It results in a repeatable, consistent, and automatic stroke that you can trust.

I find this difficult to do. First, your focus is not on the cue ball anymore, you're looking at the object ball when you shoot. Second, you have to apply some force. I try to maintain the same level of relaxation when I pull the trigger, but still, it feel likes the whole world changes, the feeling of that stroke is just different.

I go back one step further: practice shooting a ball straight up the table and down back to my cue tip. I use a stripe ball and position it to roll like a tire.

It's so hard. I can rarely do it. Again, even though my cue tip is at the dead center during my warm-up strokes, when I finally shoot, the stripe twists immediately and I know things go wrong after my focus is switched to the object ball.


Question:
Is there any advices or words of wisdom you can give me?

During your final stroke, do you try to repeat the style and the same level of relaxation like your warm-up strokes?

Do you consciously try to maintain the straight delivery during your final stroke? Or you rely on the warm-up strokes to "lock" your swing into position, then not looking back, and just trust what you have aligned?

Regarding shooting a ball up table and back down to your cue tip, how often can a good player do it? All the time? Should I be able to do it at least 9 out of 10 times before going back to shooting straight-in shots? What is a realistic goal before I should move on?


Thank you.
 
following on from neil's good advice, practice stroking over the seam on the rail where the cloth meets the tabl/rail. you want to keep the line covered as you look directly down over your cue.
 
I don't know how much of a nervous novice you really are, but I would also add that hearing from some of the expert players around here (I'll assume most of it is true!) might give you a misleading impression about how difficult these drills are to do perfectly.
 
Neil said:
It's hard to say without seeing you shoot. But odds are that your alignement is a little off. And you aren't stroking straight. Trying putting a little pencil line on the table (if it's your table) in-line with your stroke and see if the tip stays on that line during your follow-through.

Another item to consider- a lot of times when people go for a harder shot (more speed) they tend to grip tighter on the cue than normal. This extra gripping can tense up muscles that will throw your stroke off. Keep a loose grip on all shots.

You can also overchalk your tip and clean the cueball off. Then set up the cueball with the dot on it (if it has one) right where you want to hit it. Then hit the cueball and see if there is a chalk mark on the spot you wanted to hit. That will tell you if you are hitting where you want to. (even though you already know that you aren't)

If you find your alignement is off. First try shifting your rear foot around. Usually that can straighten you out.
Click to expand...

During my warm-up stroke, when I swing slowly and focus on the cue ball, I am able to move my shaft straight along the intended line, like worriedbeef said about stroking over the seam. However, during my final stroke, I am not able to repeat that.

I try to maintain a loose grip, just hold it enough so it won't fly out during the follow through, and rely on my forearm to provide the forward motion.

I will try the "chalk on cue ball" diagnosis next time.

PKM said:
I don't know how much of a nervous novice you really are, but I would also add that hearing from some of the expert players around here (I'll assume most of it is true!) might give you a misleading impression about how difficult these drills are to do perfectly.
Click to expand...

I can shoot the diagonal straight-in shot and stop the cue ball dead with a soft low ball 90% of the time. It is slow so less things can go wrong, and I have enough time to conciously telling my arm to maintain that straight delivery. However, when I shoot harder and faster, at a blink, no time to think, things go wrong.
 
NervousNovice said:
...and I have enough time to conciously telling my arm to maintain that straight delivery. However, when I shoot harder and faster, at a blink, no time to think, things go wrong.
Click to expand...

Nervous,
Couple of things leap off the page at me.

Some points to consider, in no particular order of priority:

1. It sounds like you have a physical problem, the shoot the
ball up-and-down drill, if the stripe is spinning sideways, you are not
hitting center ball. FWIW, try shooting the shot across the table first.
When you can master the shorter version, then try lengthwise.

Your results say you are either not actually lining up on center,
OR, you are pulling off-line on your final stroke<the more likely case>.

To eliminate one distraction, try to develop the ability to fall perfectly
in line on the CB as you bend into your stance. Come down with the
tip exactly where it needs to be and hit the shot.
This one won't happen over nite.
To sort this one out, you will need to have someone watch you,
unless you are lucky enough to be able to video yourself.

2. The mental part:

Stop thinking

Telling your arm what to do - or anything what to do is begging for
problems.

Warm up strokes are to 'warm up'
Determine exactly, and fully what you want to accomplish
and how you are going to make that happen before you
ever bend down into your stance.

Once down - do not ever think about anything except where
you are trying to hit the Object Ball.

Try this method on your straight-in practice shot.
BTW I would also recomend you move the OB half the distance to the pocket, and the CB half the distance to the OB.
Shoot repeatedly 'till you can nail the shot - then, and only then,
increase both distances in 2 - 3 increments.

Dale
 
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You might want to consider spending some time with a good instructor. There are several who post on here who are trained to help you develop that consistant, repeatable stroke you are looking for.
You might save yourself a lot of time and agrivation to have someone help you get it right. If you are doing something wrong, and continue practicing that way, you are just ingraining bad habits into your game.
Steve
 
1st thing you should do IMHO is to get someone who knows the game to watch what you do. They can see if your hand twists, you drop your shoulder (happens a lot I noticed when people put more power into a shot), you steer at all (can happen even on straight in shots if you learned to aim off center, you adjust subconciously).

The suggetion above to practice with a stripe and hit to a rail and back to your tip is always a good fundamental practice routine to get a straight stroke. If you are just starting or a low to mid C level, do the hit short way, see if you can hit it several times in a row. Then try it the long way.

When I had issues of aiming off center and moving my tip at the last second (due to many years of learning by myself at first), a friend and I started working out together on drills and we found that having another person see what you are doing is a huge help. The next step of-course if to fix anything wrong, that will be the hard part :-)
 
If you have to "steer" your stroke to hit the ball straight, then it's likely your stance is off somehow. Maybe your feet aren't in the right position to allow your natural alignment to fall into place. Most likely you're not paying enough attention to repeating the same setup motions each time.

A skilled instructor can see things you can't, identify where your stroke is going off the tracks and suggest specific changes in arm position, head position, etc. But only you can find your own "natural" stance so that all these things fit together comfortably and allow your stroke to be effortlessly straight.

Try stroking the cue without a cue ball, just watching to see how straight your stick moves as you try different elbow, head, shoulder, hip, feet positions, etc. Try to find out how your body best fits these things together for you so your stroke is free swinging and not steered by your arm muscles - let gravity do the work. It's an individual thing, but also pay attention to how close you are to the "classic" stance - you don't want to be too far from that if possible.

Then, when you find a stance that works best for your body, notice how your feet, hips, shoulders, head, etc. are aligned with the stick and figure out a simple pre-shot routine (how you approach each shot) that aligns that natural stance with the cue ball and the shot line every time. Use that routine for every shot.

Go back periodically and do the whole thing over again to be sure you don't slip into laziness or forget things. Fundamentals are a lifelong learning and maintenance process. Even the pros work on them.


pj
chgo
 
Consider spending time with a good instructor is probably the best advice you could get. But of course many players have that stubborn streak of wanting to do it on their own (sorta kinda).

I say "sorta kinda" because can't really be doing it on our own once we've sought outside advice... ;)

You may be setting some higher standards. Sometimes this sets ourselves up for failure. For example, if my standard is to be a World beater player ranked #1 in the world. Then every day from now until I meet that goal (if ever - thus until I die) would be failure. So you could try the same diagonal drill that you're talkin about, but use shorter distances (i.e. 2 diamonds from pocket, and 2 diamonds back). Do this successfully and then increase your distance (i.e. another diamond on each). When you find a fail point decrease your distance (a diamond or half a diamond...). You might want to consider practicing at a point where you reach about 80% success.

This has a few added benefits.
1. Instead of telling us about something you're failing at. You can then tell us, you feel successful at X distance and are trying to extend that further.
2. Knowing your successful/fail distances can be quite useful for when you're playing competitively. When you see those shots come up, you can quickly assess your chances of success.
3. You can find the distance where you are practicing the stroke successfully. Since you say that you are over-gripping the stick, continuing to practice the way you are, is in-graining in your mind this over-gripping motion. Kinda reminds ya of that old stupid joke... Dr. my arm hurts every time I move it this way. Reply: well stop moving it like that.
Finding that point where you are challenged to practice it successfully, will help ingrain the proper stroke.


But, overall, stepping back, if you can't get the stripe to roll properly as you've mentioned. That's the first place to put focus. As a player, you should be able to do that nearly 100% of the time. One short tip, is to put a little top english (i.e. 1 to 1/2 tip). If it still doesn't roll like a tire, then seek a personal trainer.

This is an example, where it would be most advisable to get a good instructor. Someone else (or even you yourself) may show you how to get that stripe to roll right, or help you to do that drill. But, if create success, on top of a base flaw in your stroke, then you'll be still ingraining that flaw. You may have to live with those consequences for the rest of your life, or else be very committed to changing it, which could mean a big step back. Whereas, using a good instructor to ensure you are doing it the proper way, can go a long way to your success in the future.
 
pooltchr said:
You might want to consider spending some time with a good instructor. There are several who post on here who are trained to help you develop that consistant, repeatable stroke you are looking for.
You might save yourself a lot of time and agrivation to have someone help you get it right. If you are doing something wrong, and continue practicing that way, you are just ingraining bad habits into your game.
Steve
Click to expand...


I had the same problem with the same shot until I took the lessons from a BCA instructor that teaches the course set up by the BCA. Money well spent.
 
Do you consciously try to maintain the straight delivery during your final stroke? Or you rely on the warm-up strokes to "lock" your swing into position, then not looking back, and just trust what you have aligned?

Regarding shooting a ball up table and back down to your cue tip, how often can a good player do it? All the time? Should I be able to do it at least 9 out of 10 times before going back to shooting straight-in shots? What is a realistic goal before I should move on?
Click to expand...
You should never stop practicing fundamentals. You can work on certain shots (like the diagonal shot), but not shooting/practicing other shots until you are 90% on this shot might not be the best for your game. It is a good benchmark - which should probably be used to determine if you are actually getting better. That is, practice various parts of your game and once a week shoot the diagonal shot 10 times. Keep track of your score. Then practice some more, and shoot the diagonal shot 10 more times (keeping track of your score).

Soon you will have one point of reference for your improvement.

A good tool to keep track of your progress (and to identify weaknesses) is the Pro Book series (the Pro Book and Advanced Pro Book).

-td
 
Neil said:
If you find your alignement is off. First try shifting your rear foot around. Usually that can straighten you out.
Click to expand...

From another novice's perspective, realizing the above made a big difference for me.

I have the same problem and assumed that it was a stance alignment issue. I experimented around with different pre-shot preparation and found the following to make a huge improvement.

1. I stand comfortably a few feet back from the table with my eyes centered on the shot line (direction I want the cueball to go) and my feet side by side.
2. Without moving to either side I step into my stance with my forward foot and lean down to aim the shot. If I don't like where I am, I stand up and start over because I did something wrong.

As I've gotten better at it, I rarely have to readjust or stand up and start over. It's amazing how well this works especially for the long shots. Sometimes after doing this I can even make the shot with my eyes closed. That tells me something is working right.

Experts and instructors may say this is way off base, and I'll listen to them, but I suspect I'm on the right track and this may help you too.

Tom
 
NervousNovice said:
During my warm-up stroke, when I swing slowly and focus on the cue ball, I am able to move my shaft straight along the intended line, like worriedbeef said about stroking over the seam. However, during my final stroke, I am not able to repeat that.

I try to maintain a loose grip, just hold it enough so it won't fly out during the follow through, and rely on my forearm to provide the forward motion.

I will try the "chalk on cue ball" diagnosis next time.



I can shoot the diagonal straight-in shot and stop the cue ball dead with a soft low ball 90% of the time. It is slow so less things can go wrong, and I have enough time to conciously telling my arm to maintain that straight delivery. However, when I shoot harder and faster, at a blink, no time to think, things go wrong.
Click to expand...

To increase your accuracy of stroke, on your final stroke, PULL THE CUE BACK SLOWLY, making a smooth transition to the final forward motion. Yes, it is OK to pause on the final stroke but it may take time to work that into your pre-shot routine.

When you shoot hard, you probably are pulling your stroke alignment off and hitting the cue ball at a spot you didn't intend to hit.

Also, during your warm up strokes you can move the cue very quickly but smoothly, then slow your final stroke down. Some players even take short warm up strokes, then one long, slow, final back-stroke to shoot the shot and whatever final forward stroke speed is necessary to make the shot and get shape. It's not the warm up strokes as much as it is the final stroke.

It is not easy to hit the cue ball hard and straight. :)

JoeyA (still trying)
 
When I shoot hard I jerk the cue. UNLESS... unless I pause at the back of the stroke. IF I pause at the back of the stroke I can then shoot a control power shot.

Use a stripe as the cue ball and shoot cross table and make the cb come back and hit the cue tip. Try it shooting the length of the table. Stripe as a cb on the head spot, shoot to the bottom rail w/the cb traveling over the center and bottom spots to the end rail and back over all the spots to hit the cue tip. Using the stripe as a cb you'll see the english you are putting on the ball.

Get help when you see that you are hitting the cb w/unwanted english.

If you'll put your location in your personal profile somebody close to you will recommend a teacher.
 
small steps

As others have mentioned you need to start with the balls close and increase distance until it first starts to be challenging, maybe a seventy-five percent shot that you pocket the ball and control the cue ball and start working from there.

One thing I am not clear about reading this thread is if you are gradually increasing the force you shoot with also. Shoot the shot hard enough to get the results you want. If you can stun the cue ball with a light-medium hit, why hammer it? Work up your speed gradually just like your distance until you can hit the ball at any distance and get the results you want. The key is to not make any large jumps though. Don't make large jumps in difficulty, don't make large jumps in speed. You shoot fine slow, you have trouble shooting hard and straight, but at what speed does the problem start?

Set up at least a full step behind where you are going to shoot from and step straight into your stance aligned with the shot, don't come at it from the side. Due to binocular vision we always have parallax when we look at things at a different distance if we use both eyes. What that means is that the shot won't look exactly the same looking at the cue ball and looking at the object ball. This isn't an issue. Trust that you will hit the cue ball where you aimed.

Finally, don't make yourself crazy with drills and drudge work. Spend time on the table just having fun. Sometimes this is when major breakthroughs take place, when you aren't trying to force anything.

Hu
 
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