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JAM said:
I "whine" about the State of American pool because I have made a huge personal investment in it, and I am not talking about money here.

You have posted on this forum about your $150,000 job while you play Internet poker at the office, trying to relay to others that your income means something. It don't mean squat in my book.

I think I probably have more gamble in my pinky that you do, Pal, but that doesn't mean I desire to gamble with the likes of you.

I will continue to express my opinions about the the state of American pool as a profession, but when a previously banned AzBilliards poster begins to stir it up with me, like you are on this thread, then my better judgment tells me to be cognizant that there are some posters on this forum who have been ignorant, are still ignorant, and will continue to be ignorant.

Now go back to your extremely informative posts such as Hubert and Karen in a bar fight. That is such a great pool-related post for us all to enjoy reading. What a contribution you have made to this forum.

JAM


I posted about my job in a previous thread specifically to refute another persons argument, nothing more nothing less. In fact, a few post laters we agreed to disagree and all was fine. You take things way too seriously and you are so one sided you fail to see anyone elses side of arguments. You also have no sense of humor whatsoever and like to belittle posts that are intended for pomp and enjoyment. I will share a PM I got from another AZ member whom I have never spoken with before, anonymously of course:

Dont you know you dont question JAM and if she doesnt like something you best not post it..You might make her mad and then she will go pout and not post for a little while.In the mean time all the JAMER supporters will be mad at you for running her off again.. She likes Burger king where she gets it her way and this place has become her Burger King. you can bet the moderator have already been whinned to about your post.

I thought they were great. Just be carefull and dont get into a pissing match with her
 
Jam, “... Nobody is talking about gambling and grinding it out. What I am speaking about is PROFESSIONAL pool as a sport. It is almost impossible to hold down a job and compete professionally.

And by the way, I will complain about tournament payouts and express my opinion, just as you do.

There are some pool players who do have talent and are very worthy professionals. The word by its very meaning -- "PROFESSION" -- is key here. It is not possible to shoot pool as a professional in today's climate...”



One definition of a professional is a person who is more interested in their chosen occupation than they are in the money they are paid. Professionals do not work a 40 hour week and they do take their work home, in fact they live their profession. Nursing comes to mind among other occupations.

If players were professional they would form an association to further pool as a sport. This association would set standards, rules, ethics, (censure members), identify major contributors to the sport. And it would not be primarily interested in how much money the members could make. See the AMA, APA, etc, etc, etc.

The interesting thing about professionals, when they organize, is that society then asks these groups to set standards, venders and promoters among others follow the recommendations of the association.

Pool players do not engage in these kinds of activities and are therefore not professionals. They are people working for a paycheck. Nothing wrong with that as a chosen life style and many prefer to work playing pool for a living.

When the players are not willing to form a professional association and control their own destiny, they get to live with the result – be controlled by those with the money.

Professionals organize themselves; they are not organized by the people with the money. Interestingly those who do form professional associations are among the highest paid members of our society.

To extend Gulfportdoc’s thinking, I think that we need some thing akin to pool clubs organized like a country club. There were some interesting ideas from a Korean fellow here a while ago on clubs in his country that seem to be strongly fostering a culture of pool that is more in line with middle class values.

There is no profession of poolplayer until the players create the profession with standards, etc. There is some interest as evidenced by the currently available tournaments.
 
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JoeW said:
Jam, “... Nobody is talking about gambling and grinding it out. What I am speaking about is PROFESSIONAL pool as a sport. It is almost impossible to hold down a job and compete professionally.

And by the way, I will complain about tournament payouts and express my opinion, just as you do.

There are some pool players who do have talent and are very worthy professionals. The word by its very meaning -- "PROFESSION" -- is key here. It is not possible to shoot pool as a professional in today's climate.

Maybe you should stick to you day job and boast a little more about how good you have it -- even though in my life's experience, those who do boast are nothing more than insecure nobodies -- and continue to spew out nasty comments about professional pool players who are struggling to keep their collective heads above water.”



One definition of a professional is a person who is more interested in their chosen occupation than they are in the money they are paid. Professionals do not work a 40 hour week and they do take their work home, in fact they live their profession. Nursing comes to mind among other occupations.

If players were professional they would form an association to further pool as a sport. This association would set standards, rules, ethics, (censure members), identify major contributors to the sport. And it would not be primarily interested in how much money the members could make. See the AMA, APA, etc, etc, etc.

The interesting thing about professionals, when they organize, is that society then asks these groups to set standards, venders and promoters among others follow the recommendations of the association.

Pool players do not engage in these kinds of activities and are therefore not professionals. They are people working for a paycheck. Nothing wrong with that as a chosen life style and many prefer to work playing pool for a living.

When the players are not willing to form a professional association and control their own destiny, they get to live with the result – be controlled by those with the money.

Professionals organize themselves; they are not organized by the people with the money. Interestingly those who do form professional associations are among the highest paid members of our society.

To extend Gulfportdoc’s thinking, I think that we need some thing akin to pool clubs organized like a country club. There were some interesting ideas from a Korean fellow here a while ago on clubs in his country that seem to be strongly fostering a culture of pool that is more in line with middle class values.

There is no profession of poolplayer until the players create the profession with standards, etc. There is some interest as evidenced by the currently available tournaments.


Excellent post Joe. I agree on all points. I too think that Professional Pool could be a lot greater if the players would do more to help themselves. My point was that either they are content or just don't care. That is why I don't feel sympathy for those that complain about the state of Professional pool and how the bigger tournaments are handled. If I ran a tournament I would want to make money for my time and effort just like Charlie, Mike Janis, or any other promoter. I think people should applaud these efforts instead of always criticizing. Either that or do something to change things.
 
corvette1340 said:
I posted about my job in a previous thread specifically to refute another persons argument, nothing more nothing less. In fact, a few post laters we agreed to disagree and all was fine. You take things way too seriously and you are so one sided you fail to see anyone elses side of arguments. You also have no sense of humor whatsoever and like to belittle posts that are intended for pomp and enjoyment.

I have a great sense of humor, but I do not find it very funny reading what you have stated about professional pool players. Granted, I have a vested interest in professional pool, and as such, I have quite an opposite opinion than you do. Opinions are fine, and everybody has one, but you have made some disparaging remarks about professional pool players, and rather than let them go by, I responded to them.

BTW, why do you continue to name pro players in your posts claiming to have gambled with them, play golf with them, and have their cell numbers in your cell phone? What does all this mean? I probably have more players' cell phones in my cell phone than you ever will, but, again, what difference does it make? Does it give credence to your opinions in some way?

corvette1340 said:
I will share a PM I got from another AZ member whom I have never spoken with before, anonymously of course:

Dont you know you dont question JAM and if she doesnt like something you best not post it..You might make her mad and then she will go pout and not post for a little while.In the mean time all the JAMER supporters will be mad at you for running her off again.. She likes Burger king where she gets it her way and this place has become her Burger King. you can bet the moderator have already been whinned to about your post.

I thought they were great. Just be carefull and dont get into a pissing match with her

Well, this PM you received is right about one thing. You don't want to get in a pissing match with me. I would dance circles around you with little effort.

FWIW, I have been warned by the AzBilliards Moderator previously on several occasions for entering into an area which might turn ugly.

When I begin to not enjoy my forum experience, I self-ban myself.

As far as you go, why not go call Shannon, Corey or Stevie and then report back here and let us read all about it.

JAM
 
corvette1340 said:
How can you continually fault people for trying to make money. America is not a Socialist or Communist country, thank god. The fact that the rich get richer is because they are smart and that is part of the reason they are rich in the first place. Ive always said and told many pool playing friends, if you dont like the way professional pool pays, then get a damn job that does. I get so tired of people complaining about not making enough money playing in pool tournaments and how they cant support themselves. Guess what, the rest of the country works jobs that can support themselves. Why should I feel sorry for someone that won't get off their ass and help themselves?
I think you're missing the boat completely with that comment...it's not about feeling sorry or getting off our asses to help ourselves, it's about trying to make a career out of playing pool and having it pay a reasonable amount for the majority of players...
 
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Craig Fales said:
I think you're missing the boat completely with that comment...it's not about feeling sorry or getting off our asses to help ourselves, it's about trying to make a career out of playing pool and having it pay a reasonable amount for the majority of players...

TAP, TAP, TAP!

Some of the colloquy in this thread reminds me of an ad slogan for The Washington Post: If you don't get it, then you don't get it. :D

JAM
 
JAM said:
I have a great sense of humor, but I do not find it very funny reading what you have stated about professional pool players. Granted, I have a vested interest in professional pool, and as such, I have quite an opposite opinion than you do. Opinions are fine, and everybody has one, but you have made some disparaging remarks about professional pool players, and rather than let them go by, I responded to them.

BTW, why do you continue to name pro players in your posts claiming to have gambled with them, play golf with them, and have their cell numbers in your cell phone? What does all this mean? I probably have more players' cell phones in my cell phone than you ever will, but, again, what difference does it make? Does it give credence to your opinions in some way?


Well, this PM you received is right about one thing. You don't want to get in a pissing match with me. I would dance circles around you with little effort.




FWIW, I have been warned by the AzBilliards Moderator previously on several occasions for entering into an area which might turn ugly.

When I begin to not enjoy my forum experience, I self-ban myself.

As far as you go, why not go call Shannon, Corey or Stevie and then report back here and let us read all about it.

JAM

When you question my authority on certain subjects, pool related, then I think that yes it does lend credence since I've been in the trenches on all counts of gambling, tournaments, and first hand knowledge.



Pissing contest are messy anyway, I'll pass.


Why don't we just agree to disagree and go on. I still don't know why, when obviously you feel so passionately about this, why you don't do something to help the players out? With Keith's connections and your passion I would think that you would be perfect to garner support and monetary efforts from sponsors or even organizing the players in some way.


This is choppy reply editing by the way, sorry.
 
Craig Fales wrote, “it's not about feeling sorry or getting off our asses to help ourselves, it's about trying to make a career out of playing pool and having it pay a reasonable amount for the majority of players...”

Good point Craig and one way to do that is to take control of your own destiney. They are many professional people associated with pool. If a few professional players were interested, I am sure that people from various professions would be more than willing to help form a real professional association. Williebetmore and Gulfportdoc come to mind I have some experience in this area as well and I would guess that there are several other people from other professions here on AZB as well. These people know how professional associations are run and would probably be pleased to help a group form (though I can’t speak for them).

I suspect that the players would be amazed at the impact such a true professional association could have in as little as five years. As few as ten professional players could get the ball rolling.
 
Craig Fales said:
I think you're missing the boat completely with that comment...it's not about feeling sorry or getting off our asses to help ourselves, it's about trying to make a career out of playing pool and having it pay a reasonable amount for the majority of players...


Craig,
I am completely in support of this. I just think that the players can do more to help themselves out in this regard. Whose responsibility is it to make the work environment better and more desirable? The worker, hence unions, organizations, etc... The professional players need to diagnose the problems, organize, and problem solve.
 
JoeW said:
Jam, “... Nobody is talking about gambling and grinding it out. What I am speaking about is PROFESSIONAL pool as a sport. It is almost impossible to hold down a job and compete professionally.

And by the way, I will complain about tournament payouts and express my opinion, just as you do.

There are some pool players who do have talent and are very worthy professionals. The word by its very meaning -- "PROFESSION" -- is key here. It is not possible to shoot pool as a professional in today's climate...”



One definition of a professional is a person who is more interested in their chosen occupation than they are in the money they are paid. Professionals do not work a 40 hour week and they do take their work home, in fact they live their profession. Nursing comes to mind among other occupations.

If players were professional they would form an association to further pool as a sport. This association would set standards, rules, ethics, (censure members), identify major contributors to the sport. And it would not be primarily interested in how much money the members could make. See the AMA, APA, etc, etc, etc.

The interesting thing about professionals, when they organize, is that society then asks these groups to set standards, venders and promoters among others follow the recommendations of the association.

Pool players do not engage in these kinds of activities and are therefore not professionals. They are people working for a paycheck. Nothing wrong with that as a chosen life style and many prefer to work playing pool for a living.

When the players are not willing to form a professional association and control their own destiny, they get to live with the result – be controlled by those with the money.

Professionals organize themselves; they are not organized by the people with the money. Interestingly those who do form professional associations are among the highest paid members of our society.

To extend Gulfportdoc’s thinking, I think that we need some thing akin to pool clubs organized like a country club. There were some interesting ideas from a Korean fellow here a while ago on clubs in his country that seem to be strongly fostering a culture of pool that is more in line with middle class values.

There is no profession of poolplayer until the players create the profession with standards, etc. There is some interest as evidenced by the currently available tournaments.
How true...I think there should be no complaints when the players do nothing about the state of the game as it is now...remember back to forming a union as a result of the IPT reaming...nothing has happened yet as far as I know...The Me Me Me mentality has to stop before anything can happen...
 
corvette1340 said:
Why don't we just agree to disagree and go on. I still don't know why, when obviously you feel so passionately about this, why you don't do something to help the players out? With Keith's connections and your passion I would think that you would be perfect to garner support and monetary efforts from sponsors or even organizing the players in some way.

Well, Corvette1340, let me spill the beans for you. I used to do quite a bit to promote pool years ago, the details of which I will spare you.

As far as doing something to help the players out, it isn't quite as easy as it looks. There are forces in this pool world which work against each other, and it is impossible to make contributions, meaningful contributions, when these forces continue to exist, thereby creating a class system in pool that does not provide a level playing field for all players. In D.C., we call it "discrimination."

I am saddened to see Keith benched in recent times because he's got a whole lot of game in him and still seems to be an attraction at any event he steps foot in. I do not know what his future holds as far as competing professionally today. What I do know is that we are happy, have a roof over our heads, and know where our next meal is coming from, and I aim to keep it that way. :)

JAM
 
Let's EAT

JAM said:
I do not know what his future holds as far as competing professionally today. What I do know is that we are happy, have a roof over our heads, and know where our next meal is coming from, and I aim to keep it that way. :)
JAM


Even KM was heard to remark, "Yes dear..... but deal me IN." :)
Doug
( I too, have the roof. It's the MEALS I'm worried about )
 
corvette1340 said:
Craig,
I am completely in support of this. I just think that the players can do more to help themselves out in this regard. Whose responsibility is it to make the work environment better and more desirable? The worker, hence unions, organizations, etc... The professional players need to diagnose the problems, organize, and problem solve.

The whole key is the ability to identify problems and come up with solutions. That is after all how most businesses stay afloat with any longevity.

This though becomes very complicated when there is no staff meeting in which to determine problems and implement solutions. There is no goveerning body. There is no organazation. There are however a bunch of independent guys running around in circles hoping that someone will take the reigns and make things better. The only problem id'ed in the last 30 years is that there is no money in pool and the blame usually is placed on the industry itself.

Their are not many solutions, if any, without organazation and someone to head that. Lets be honest, is there anyone from the players list who would be qualified to head this? Is there anyone from the same list who would spend the enrgy to head this? If not, who is the LOGICAL solution?

David Stern of the NBA doesn't exactly look like a basketball player to me. Pet Rozell of the NFL didn't exactly look like a football player either.

Let's face it, pool is in dire need of a leader. It needs to be built, or maybe rebuilt from the ground up just as soccer was not so many years ago. This might be one exception to re-inventing the wheel. Without the youth of today, will there ever be intrest n the game other than the few of us who love it now? It just doesn't seem like it to me. There is no quick fix.
 
I do not know any of these people except by reputation so I have no ax to grind. The first person who comes to my mind is Nick Varner. Others might include Johnny Archer and Alan Hopkins. I am sure there are several other good people out there I do not know. People I named appear to be ambassadors of the game and people with a head on their shoulders who might also have some altruistic motives for improving the game.

Including current and past champions who are well respected by their colleagues, the industry, and the general public would be the key.

People such as this could be aproached by their colleagues to begin the formation of an association.

Incidently, in line with the tenor of the times, women should be included. I just do not know anything about the stature of various women among their colleagues, etc.

I am aware of the WPA. People are often a member of more than one association so long as they do not conflict.

I suppose this could be considered a cheery outlook. It can also be viewed as a sincere effort to take control of one's professional life with all the ups and downs, frustrations and small gains over time. The alternative is to continue with the status quo.
 
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JAM said:
The same thing is happening today in the pool world as it was in the '70s, '80s, and '90s as far as the class structure. The BCA is not as supportive of professional pool as I would like, and the pool industry members who do invest monies into the sport can only invest so much.

JAM

I agree with you, about the state of things being the same. I totally disagree that the billiards industry can only invest 'so much'. The industry generates annual revenues of $500M-$1B. If just the top ten industry members contributed 1/10 of 1% of their gross revenue annually, we could easily fund a regular professional tour, with 10 events, each adding $80K-$100K in added money...and all expenses built in. The fact is that they CHOOSE not to donate those kinds of funds. Until/unless they change their minds, pool will continue to suffer at the professional player level. The facts are, that there is still a very high demand for pool entertainers...who are paid well, and work a lot. Most professional tournament players could suppliment their income doing this kind of work...but the common misdirected mentality, is that "those trick shot guys/instructors can't play, or they'd be here!"...speaking of playing tournaments. I've said before...there could easily be a couple of hundred people doing what I do. All it takes is a little skill, some personality, and the drive to succeed.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
I agree with you, about the state of things being the same. I totally disagree that the billiards industry can only invest 'so much'. The industry generates annual revenues of $500M-$1B. If just the top ten industry members contributed 1/10 of 1% of their gross revenue annually, we could easily fund a regular professional tour, with 10 events, each adding $80K-$100K in added money...and all expenses built in. The fact is that they CHOOSE not to donate those kinds of funds. Until/unless they change their minds, pool will continue to suffer at the professional player level. The facts are, that there is still a very high demand for pool entertainers...who are paid well, and work a lot. Most professional tournament players could suppliment their income doing this kind of work...but the common misdirected mentality, is that "those trick shot guys/instructors can't play, or they'd be here!"...speaking of playing tournaments. I've said before...there could easily be a couple of hundred people doing what I do. All it takes is a little skill, some personality, and the drive to succeed.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think the industry has turned its attention to the amateur pool arena, and here in the U.S., rightfully so. ;)

Professional pool doesn't give much in return for industry's investment, it seems to me, and that is because professional pool is not respected in America, even by MANY within the American pool culture. Who cares of Earl Strickland is playing Efren Reyes in the finals, aside from folks like us?

I understand that there is money to be made in instructional pool. However, just because a player knows how to shoot pool well does not mean the player would be a good teacher, if you will. That is a separate skills set, very different than shooting pool well, I think. By the same token, there are EXCELLENT instructors who couldn't hold their own in a pro tournament. To have both assets, though -- playing well and teaching -- that can be capitalized on, as you state. :)

I agree with the pool entertainer part of you post. Minnesota Fats didn't play as well as his peers, but he sure did make a whole lot more money than they did, and that is because he was entertaining. Everybody in America in Fats' era knew who he was. Today, we have no celebrity pool person that has reached the heights of popularity that Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., did or Willie Mosconi or Steve Mizerak. Lou Butera went the entertainment route in pool, and I think he benefited more from this, than he did from shooting pool competitively.

Pool needs a boom all right, whether it be a movie or a personality like Minnesota Fats or an unknown entity. I have come to the conclusion, though, that professional exhibitions/tournaments ain't going to put pool on the map in the Continental United States.

JAM
 
Smorgass Bored said:
LOL...Hey, YAM ( I call you YAM because you're so sweet). That's a funny video, but I posted it here in the NPR section an hour before you in the 'Worst movies' thread.
Doug
( I see that some of us are reading the same groups :) )

LOLOLOLOLOLOL! :D

JAM
 
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