Predator and Deflection

B

Bellhemen

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I'm not sure this is the right forum but here goes. I recently bought Joe Tuckers Advanced Pocket Billiards Guaranteed Improvement. Paging through it, hes' got a page dedicated to Predator Cues and how it can take years off a learning process due to deflection.

Are Predator Cues really all that? For 250 bucks I can screw on a Predator shaft. I remember seeing the CueTec commercials advertising a graphite core to reduce deflection. Don't most cues have some sort of deflection reduction? I'm kinda thinking Joe Tucker has a financial reason for dedicating one whole page out of 79 pages to Predator.

I have the impression that if you spend a few hundred bucks on almost any name brand cue you'll get a good one, whether thats a Viking, Lucasi, McDermott, Cuetec, Predator, or something else. So whats the verdict with Predator? Is it as good as any other cue or do they have something that makes them better than the rest?
 
www.predatorcues.com

they explain why they feel their shaft is the best. whether it is really the best is and always will be a debate. you have to play with one and decide if it suits you. there are a million threads here that you can search about deflection and cueball squirt.
 
I don't think he is being paid by Predator in any way. I just think he stongly believes in Predator Products. If you go to the following link that I post, Joe teaches people how to compensate for deflection with a predator cue. It's called backhand english and is something Tony Robles taught me. It is extremely effective and easy to apply. So yes I believe Predator does shave years off your learning curve. I'm living proof, I went from a D player to a B in 10 months after learning this. Although I did practice my ass. But backhand english definately got me there quicker.

http://joetucker.net/side_spin_workouts.htm


http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_deflection_drills.php
 
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I did play with a SW. I got a Predator Z2 shaft for one of my other playing cues and was immediately hooked. I was going to give a link to Platinum Billiards where they had deflection tests done on many shafts but the link doesn't work anymore. :(

Anyway.... many pros use the Predator and since they came out there have been several copies/pretenders. They really do work and I love the Z2... I'm sold!
 
JMS said:
I don't think he is being paid by Predator in any way. I just think he stongly believes in Predator Products. If you go to the following link that I post, Joe teaches people how to compensate for deflection with a predator cue. It's called backhand english and is something Tony Robles taught me. It is extremely effective and easy to apply. So yes I believe Predator does shave years off your learning curve. I'm living proof, I went from a D player to a B in 10 months after learning this. Although I did practice my ass. But backhand english definately got me there quicker.

http://joetucker.net/side_spin_workouts.htm


http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_deflection_drills.php
Click to expand...

I thought back hand english compensation was meant for regular deflection cues... while front hand (or a combination of front/back hand) english was meant for low deflection cues.

Low deflection shafts are not "better", just different. You have to see what you prefer; and, definitely, getting used to one single shaft can't harm your game.
 
Bellhemen,

I have the Guaranteed Improvement book, and I've also been using Predator shafts for 10 years.

I like predator shafts a ton.

HOWEVER, that page in the book is the least important page in the whole book, BY FAR. If you really do the drills in the book, record your results, not cheat, and make notes, you WILL improve immensely no matter what your cue is. That book is amazing (again, if you actually do the drills diligently)
 
All this deflection BS might as well be a big fart ... No cue performs until somebody picks it up and hits with it , and the cue is only as good as the terd playing with it ...People will say and do anything for money ... Think about it ...Some people make products to sell and others make them for the love of the game ... There is no magic in any wood or construction technique , the secret is hard work , just like life ...:cool:
 
Bellhemen said:
Are Predator Cues really all that? For 250 bucks I can screw on a Predator shaft. I remember seeing the CueTec commercials advertising a graphite core to reduce deflection. Don't most cues have some sort of deflection reduction? I'm kinda thinking Joe Tucker has a financial reason for dedicating one whole page out of 79 pages to Predator.
Click to expand...

If you haven't done so already, check out the articles by Bob Jewett and Dr. Dave Alciatore on the subject of deflection/squirt and its relation to end mass. This paper is also a good reference:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/shepard_squirt.pdf

Here's a collection of articles on low-deflection shafts:
http://www.poolcuenews.com/tag/low-deflection-shaft/

Definitely try before you buy. You may or may not like the hit of a Predator with the butt of your current cue. It'd suck to spend that cash only to find this out. That one shaft's worth of cash could be spent on a dozen books, DVDs from Accu-Stats, hours of lessons from a top instructor, or (nearly) enough to buy a sneaky pete from any of several great cue makers. A local cuemaker would certainly be happy for the business.

Here's my Predator story:
I first heard about the Predator shaft when it came on the market (in the 90's, if I remember correctly). At the time a bunch of us science and engineering types laughed at the silly marketing: if Predator had a case to make about a measurable phenomenon, their marketing wasn't convincing people like us. Though I won't fault Predator for picking a simple message and driving it home, I'm reminded of what the senior brand manager is reported to have said about Grape Nuts: "It's people eating advertising."

After spending years away from the game I started playing again, and I was surprised to read how many pro players had switched to the Predator shaft. I visited a local seller to try out a 314. Though he let me hit with the 314 he wouldn't let me chalk the tip; if the tip were chalked, he said, he'd have a harder time selling the shaft as new. I hit some balls around, using a center ball hit to avoid miscuing with an unchalked tip, but shooting center ball is hardly helpful when you want to test the amount of deflection due to shooting with English. To chalk up the shaft and test it I would have to buy it. No one I knew had a 314 to test. I was in a buying mood.

After shooting drills and playing league matches with the Predator 314 for a few months I concluded that there was little noticeable difference for me in real game situations whether I played with the Predator or with the original, stiff-hitting Scruggs shaft. In addition to using a new shaft I'd made other changes--playing more frequently, tweaking my playing style, etc.--so it wasn't feasible to determine how much improvement in play, if any, was due to the equipment. Nowadays I shoot with a Schuler carom cue anyway.

Your mileage may vary. If you get a chance, set up some shots and shoot them with your current cue, a few house cues, and a cue with the Predator shaft.
 
I was going to recommend that op go to the data that was compiled by Proficient Billiards but the link is dead now. Anybody know what happened to Proficient Billiards?
www.proficientbilliards.com
 
JimS said:
I was going to recommend that op go to the data that was compiled by Proficient Billiards but the link is dead now. Anybody know what happened to Proficient Billiards?
www.proficientbilliards.com
Click to expand...

This sounds familiar. Was the page first put online in the late 90's?

Do you have the old link, or do you remember the title? If the page is no longer available on the Proficient Billiards site you might find a version that Google has cached.

I tried the Google search "deflection site:www.proficientbilliards.com" the only page that came up was for a Meucci shaft.
 
Nobody has said they're no good. For $250 if it does improve my game or shave off years its a very good investment. If it doesn't improve anything I guess I'm stuck with a damn good shaft that most pros use.
 
JimS said:
I did play with a SW. I got a Predator Z2 shaft for one of my other playing cues and was immediately hooked. I was going to give a link to Platinum Billiards where they had deflection tests done on many shafts but the link doesn't work anymore. :(
Click to expand...

Archive.org has pages billions of pages stored on their server. Just enter said link into the WaybackMachine section and it will give you list of past pages it has spidered. Here's the deflection ratings page from Platinum Billiards for August 2007:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070819062036/http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php
 
How cool is that!? Thanks. I had no idea there existed a site like that. Edit: Sorry these ratings didn't copy like they were laid out in the actual web page. Use the link provided and you'll be able to read them.

These are the deflection ratings that solved a lot of arguments a few years back.. back in the day.. as it were :groucho:

DEFLECTION RATINGS


For an explanation of cue ball deflection see about cue ball deflection
For an explanation of pivot points see about pivot points

HOW AND WHAT WE TEST
We ask the question “which shaft deflects least?” because the butt of the cue has little effect on cue ball deflection. However, shafts are generally tested on the same brand of butt and the test weight for all is kept close to 19 ounces. All shafts are tested as sold by the manufacturer including tip type and tip curvature as noted. All tests are performed using a robot which makes precisely the same stroke with each cue, and for this test the machine is set to produce cue ball speeds of around 15mph. A series of four shots is made with each cue and the resulting cue ball deflection is recorded on a target 50” away which is exactly the distance between the foot string and the head spot on a 4 ½ x 9 pool table. The four shots are 6mm (about ¼”) and 12mm left of center, and 6mm and 12mm right of center, and these offsets are measured from the center of the cue ball to the center of the shaft. The actual cue ball deflection produced by each shot is measured and the average for the series is given in the chart below in millimeters and inches. Shaft Tested Tip
Curvature Deflection
over 50"
(mm) Deflection
over 50"
(inches) Compared
to Average Pivot
Point
(inches) Deflection
Rating
Predator Z-2 dime 29.6 1.17 -28.6% 14.1 low
Predator Z dime 32.3 1.27 -22.2% 12.8 low
Predator 314-2 dime 33.0 1.30 -20.4% 12.5 low
OB-1 Shaft dime 33.4 1.32 -19.3% 12.3 low
Predator BK2 dime 34.6 1.36 -16.5% 11.9 low
Predator 314 dime 34.8 1.37 -16.1% 11.8 low
McDermott i-3 dime 36.8 1.45 -11.2% 11.1 low
Predator BK dime 37.1 1.46 -10.6% 11.0 low
Universal SmartShaft (Low Squirt) dime 37.9 1.49 -8.6% 10.7 low
McDermott i-2 dime 38.6 1.52 -6.9% 10.5 med low
Universal SmartShaft (Regular Squirt) dime 39.4 1.55 -5.0% 10.3 med low
Axiom dime 39.6 1.56 -4.4% 10.3 med low
McDermott i-1 dime 39.6 1.56 -4.4% 10.3 med low
Action dime 40.1 1.58 -3.2% 10.1 med low
Meucci Red Dot dime 40.1 1.58 -3.2% 10.1 med low
5280 dime 40.6 1.60 -2.0% 9.9 med low
Sierra dime 40.9 1.61 -1.4% 9.9 med low
Cuetec Thunderbolt dime 41.7 1.64 0.5% 9.7 medium
Viking nickel 41.7 1.64 0.5% 9.7 medium
Mezz Power Break 2 quarter 41.7 1.64 0.5% 9.7 medium
Sterling nickel 41.9 1.65 1.1% 9.6 medium
Bunjee J/B quarter 42.3 1.67 2.0% 9.5 medium
Fury JB dime 42.7 1.68 2.9% 9.4 medium
Falcon dime 42.9 1.69 3.5% 9.4 medium
McDermott dime 42.9 1.69 3.5% 9.4 medium
Mezz dime 42.9 1.69 3.5% 9.4 medium
Tiger X-shaft nickel 42.9 1.69 3.5% 9.4 medium
Players dime 43.4 1.71 4.8% 9.2 medium
Sledgehammer J/B dime 43.4 1.71 4.8% 9.2 medium
Cuetec Vortex dime 43.9 1.73 6.0% 9.1 medium
Mali dime 43.9 1.73 6.0% 9.1 medium
Pechauer nickel 43.9 1.73 6.0% 9.1 medium
Scorpion J/B quarter 43.9 1.73 6.0% 9.1 medium
Blaze dime 43.9 1.73 6.0% 9.1 medium
Joss nickel 44.2 1.74 6.6% 9.1 med high
Cuetec SST nickel 44.2 1.74 6.6% 9.0 med high
X Breaker 44.3 1.74 6.8% 9.0 med high
Meucci Black Dot dime 44.4 1.75 7.2% 9.0 med high
Fury nickel 44.7 1.76 7.8% 9.0 med high
Lucasi dime 44.7 1.76 7.8% 8.9 med high
Schon nickel 44.7 1.76 7.8% 8.9 med high
Axiom J/B dime 46.0 1.81 10.9% 8.7 med high
Bunjee Blaster nickel 46.0 1.81 10.9% 8.7 med high
Lightning Bolt 46.2 1.82 11.4% 8.6 med high
Mezz Break quarter 47.8 1.88 15.2% 8.3 high
Scorpion Break dime 51.3 2.02 23.7% 7.6 high
Bold denotes recent additions






Platinum Billiards is an independent company and has no affiliation with any billiard product manufacturer.
The performance information we provide is based on careful scientific testing and observation. We are highly experienced at testing the performance of cues and we believe that our methods are sound and accurate. However, we do not claim that our findings are absolute. We are aware that cues of a same model vary slightly and as we test more samples of each, the numbers will become more refined. If any manufacturer is unhappy with our results and/or feels that the ratings are unfair, we encourage them to contact us and we will be happy to answer questions about our methodology and/or arrange for the testing of any cues they would like to send us, and if warranted, we will adjust the numbers accordingly. We can only offer testing of cues, shafts, products that are currently on the market. We do not offer testing for prototypes or products that have yet to be made available to the general public.
 
Bellhemen said:
So whats the verdict with Predator? Is it as good as any other cue or do they have something that makes them better than the rest?
Click to expand...

It's just the shaft, and it simply all boils down to side spin.

Using English, Predators are definitely different in feel and aim adjustment from a conventional shaft. For some players, yes, it works wonders when it comes to pocketing balls with side spin, and for some players it does nothing for them or even hurts their game.

I have found that I can make less aim adjustment with a Predator shaft using side spin than with most conventional shafts. I often make difficult spin shots I wouldn't even attempt with a conventional shaft.

Predators are generally consistent from shaft to shaft. When it comes to low deflection, there are some conventional shafts that are close, but you have to look long and hard to find them.

Chris
 
I was a non-believer but that changed. I can use more english and use it with confidence and only have to adjust for deflection and squirt on the rare occasion when I hit the cue ball at warp speed and over a long distance... i.e. 6 diamonds on a 9 ft table. Under those conditions, hitting very hard and shooting a long distance with very heavy english, I have to adjust for a little squirt. With every regular shaft I have the adjustments begin with much less english applied and with the speed of the shot being much softer.

Those of you who write it all off as just so much rhetoric deisgned to sell products are wrong.
 
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I didn't get hooked on my Z2 because of hype. I used it alongside several other cues that I own and for identical shots I had to allow for much more squirt with the normal shafts. With other high tech shafts I didn't see as much difference but they too exhibited quite a bit more squirt than my Z2. Use the link to see the measured differences as performed by Platinum Billiards for August 2007:

http://web.archive.org/web/200708190...ng_deflect.php

I don't sell shafts and I have no reason to tell you other than what I've experienced first hand. The Z2 takes guess work out of a lot of shots and minimizes guess work on almost all the others. I use it with a Super Pro tip so I get the "click" I like when I strike the cb.
 
Predator Shafts / Deflection

I think that a Predator shaft's low deflection does, in fact, work as they state. But I also think that the new physics help different players in different ways. If one is a complete novice and starts using a 314 or a Z he will have to compensate less and pocket more balls. So the "learning curve" as it relates to using side spin, is shorter simply because the compensation factors are somewhat less than would be necessary with a conventional shaft with an average degree of squirt. I have been playing for many years but got pretty far away from the game and it's technological advancements for quite a while. When I returned to playing I was using my old Meucci (before their fishing pole shafts). It was a good cue and I still could play pretty well with it. Then I tried a friend's Predator 4K3 with the 1st generation 314 and after playing with it for a few days I found that while I was not a big fan of the feel of the shaft it was simply easier to pocket balls with this cue than my old Meucci. So I bought one and I saw an immediate improvement in my ability to drop shots. At this point I was not exposed to any marketing hype at all. I hadn't read any ads or technical data about deflection (what we all called "squirt", in the old days). But the longer I played it, especially after trying other player's cues, I realized that the Predator was, in fact, deflecting the CB less during a side spin shot and I adapted quickly to it....this is before I started to really get into cue technology.
Having said all of this, a very good player who has a wealth of experience and uses a conventional shaft that has an average amount of deflection may actually not play as well with 314 because he will have to endure a "reverse" learning curve as it relates to how he will have to play the game. But, as evidenced by so many pros, that will happen quickly because the guy could probably use a broom and still beat a novice.
Others may say that the laminated shaft doesn't offer them the same amount of feel or a completely different feel than a conventional shaft and that it throws off the other aspects of how this player controls the CB.
To sum it up, I believe Predator's deflection theories and while I haven't played extensively with a lot of other low deflection shafts except an OB1, I think that the 314 series is the best of the lot that I have played so far.

As an aside I just acquired a cue with the 314-2 and think that the feel is much improved over the original (which must be true for the Z shafts as well). And if you read and believe the data (both Predator's and independent) the 314-2 has even less deflection than the original (the 314-2 has almost identical deflection characteristics of the original Z). So I believe that Predator (as well as other low deflection lams) are still making progress to reach the "Holy Grail".....the shaft that feels like a fine conventional shaft with the same low squirt characteristics of the best laminated shafts. JMO.
 
I purchased a predator Z2 shaft and I went straight to the table, I hated it so much I quit playing for about 2 weeks:mad!! I decided I would give it another shot and I did from that point on I love it and wish I bought one sooner.
 
I can't really add much more to the discussion as most of the major points have already been covered already but I thought I would throw in my own personal experience with the Predator shafts.

Once I decided to try the shafts I did have a little adjustment period because of the lessened amount of deflection but once I dialed in I was extremely pleased with my game and how it had progressed and was very pleased with my ability to get that extra little bit of english on some shots that I thought needed it for position and not having to adjust my aim much/if any to get the result I wanted. I ended up playing with the Predator shafts for a full 2 seasons in leagues and finished higher in the standings and with a better overall plus/minus average in our scoring system than I had in previous years.

Then I decided to go back to using a regular shaft on a Jacoby cue just to help me get back to a more center ball controlled game. Again I had a little bit of an adjustment period but once I started mastering true BHE and stayed away from parrallel english except in certain very short distance touch shots I gained even more confidence and even better cue ball control than I ever had before. I played the next league season with regular shafts and finished even higher in the standings (4th) and with my best plus/minus average ever (3.01) and recorded more run-outs than ever before.

Did the predator shaft help improve my game? IMO ........ yes, but it also allowed me to hit further away from center of the cueball w/o as many consequences and after going back to a regular shaft again I can appreciate the more disciplined cue ball striking that it takes with a regular shaft and I think I have settled into playing with regular shafts and concentrating on more disciplined cue ball striking and stroke.

I can definitely see benefits to the LD shafts but I can also say with conviction it took me playing with an LD shaft then going back to regular shafts to get me to the point I am now which is IMO playing better than I ever have before with hopes of becoming even better with time and more practice and discipline in my game.

Trevor
 
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