Predator "black shafts?"

[Fuji-whopper]

Carbon fiber is not in itself very good at taking sharp blows from a direction other than the one that they were designed for.

From what I remember the originals weren't made of carbon fiber but coated in a carbon layer, so that there was no directionality. But my memory might be a little fuzzy from this being over a decade ago that we had a chance to toy with the shaft.


Neil

 

[erriep]

there is a curious fact : when Predator works on a composite shaft, at the same time Longoni stops to product their composite shafts... Longoni is the leader of the carom market, and you have an idea of the weight of Predator in the pool market.
IMHO we can't exclude that it could be voluntary, because some links between both companies do exist (a strong evidence to me) . see "Molinari cues" .... swap of "know-how" against part of markets ? imho could be , they have mutual interests to protect.

Composite shafts aren't always carbon based, even they "look like" carbon... more often an composite glass and/or aramid , with epoxy resin. Carbon "sells" more, but aramid & glass do add very interesting properties in composites (as for example, glass add weight and strenght, aramid add huge strenght and resistance to friction ...)

The longoni composite carom shafts were/are excellent. really.Well known by the artistic players , especially for the composite masse shafts which are much more performant than wood for many masse shots of the artistic program ( ask to Florian Kohler if/when you meet him, he will tell you more ) ....The 5 pins/ 5 birrilli players do often use composite shafts too. Many high end 5 pins cues are in composite material , for a while. A serious game it is, when you see the €€/$$ won by the 5 pins pro in Italy ...

Could be the next sardo , that's right. But could be innovative too , we shouldn't exclude that, because there are so many possibilities offered by the composites ... patience, time will tell.
IMHO, the future is in the composites ... Who fishs with bamboo or wood today ?

 

[SamLambert]

Hi Guys,

I have spoken with Predator directly today so that you receive accurate information regarding the new black shaft.
The Predator black shaft prototype was produced and released to a select few pro players for testing and feedback.
The material used on the black shaft is composite carbon fibre.
Predator is not releasing any further details on the construction on the shaft at this time.
A retail release date has also not been announced.

Darren said they would be out this month? Seems like we're gonna have to wait a little longer.

 

[SamLambert]

They aren't going to sell the shaft separately

Hum, that surprises me.

 

[rookiepsu]

IMHO, the future is in the composites ... Who fishs with bamboo or wood today ?

A whole lot of fly fishermen do. Most of the high end fly rods are bamboo. Orvis's original line of fly rods was all bamboo. After the introduction of composites into the market, they tried to mimic the feel and action of their bamboo line by releasing a composite version of each, and they come close but don't quite achieve the performance of the bamboos.

 

[Drop The Rock]

A whole lot of fly fishermen do. Most of the high end fly rods are bamboo. Orvis's original line of fly rods was all bamboo. After the introduction of composites into the market, they tried to mimic the feel and action of their bamboo line by releasing a composite version of each, and they come close but don't quite achieve the performance of the bamboos.

MOST fly fisherman use composite rods. Spey casters do the same.

 

[rookiepsu]

MOST fly fisherman use composite rods. Spey casters do the same.

Yes, because (aside from a few of the more pricey brands like Sage), they are much more reasonably priced. Not because they perform better. These shafts appear to be going in the opposite direction. They are slated to cost FAR more than their wood replacements. Whether or not they'll perform better is yet to be seen.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Yes, because (aside from a few of the more pricey brands like Sage), they are much more reasonably priced. Not because they perform better. These shafts appear to be going in the opposite direction. They are slated to cost FAR more than their wood replacements. Whether or not they'll perform better is yet to be seen.

Define "perform better"? As far as a fly rod goes strength, durability, casting distance are probably the main performance factors. The rest is preference. Composite rods are cheaper to produce while yielding consistency. Does that mean they under perform?

These shafts don't have an official released price but call up Tony at Black Boar for a ferrule less shaft and see what that's gonna cost ya. Don't get me started on the "player" you can buy from him.

My point is that the "high end" of custom cues is also guilty of charging for something that only has their name attached. I can go to a cue maker here in Houston and buy 20 yr. old shaft wood that is has dense and consistent grain for under $200, ferrule included.

Golf clubs went from wood to steel and graphite. How many golfers still use wooden shafts or club heads? Old school doesn't equate to superiority anymore than new school does.

I personally don't care for the idea of a non wooden shaft and probably won't buy one of these. However, whether they will be a viable product or not remains to be seen.

 

[rookiepsu]

Define "perform better"? As far as a fly rod goes strength, durability, casting distance are probably the main performance factors. The rest is preference. Composite rods are cheaper to produce while yielding consistency. Does that mean they under perform?

These shafts don't have an official released price but call up Tony at Black Boar for a ferrule less shaft and see what that's gonna cost ya. Don't get me started on the "player" you can buy from him.

My point is that the "high end" of custom cues is also guilty of charging for something that only has their name attached. I can go to a cue maker here in Houston and buy 20 yr. old shaft wood that is has dense and consistent grain for under $200, ferrule included.

Golf clubs went from wood to steel and graphite. How many golfers still use wooden shafts or club heads? Old school doesn't equate to superiority anymore than new school does.

I personally don't care for the idea of a non wooden shaft and probably won't buy one of these. However, whether they will be a viable product or not remains to be seen.

Are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges? A fair comparison would have to be to call up Tony at Black Boar and ask him how much a maple shaft would be vs a composite shaft, made by him. Or, since this thread is about Predator, perhaps we should be comparing predator to predator? Compare the price of their current new line of wood shafts to the price that most people are throwing out for the price of the composite of 6-800.

We weren't talking about fly rods, we were talking about cue shafts. Comparing wood vs composite fly rods to wood vs composite cue shafts is a reach, at best. I was merely pointing out that a lot of fly fishermen do, indeed, still fish with bamboo rods. They prefer the feel and action of them over the new (much cheaper) composite versions.

 

[caff3in3]

Define "perform better"? As far as a fly rod goes strength, durability, casting distance are probably the main performance factors. The rest is preference. Composite rods are cheaper to produce while yielding consistency. Does that mean they under perform?

These shafts don't have an official released price but call up Tony at Black Boar for a ferrule less shaft and see what that's gonna cost ya. Don't get me started on the "player" you can buy from him.

My point is that the "high end" of custom cues is also guilty of charging for something that only has their name attached. I can go to a cue maker here in Houston and buy 20 yr. old shaft wood that is has dense and consistent grain for under $200, ferrule included.

Golf clubs went from wood to steel and graphite. How many golfers still use wooden shafts or club heads? Old school doesn't equate to superiority anymore than new school does.

I personally don't care for the idea of a non wooden shaft and probably won't buy one of these. However, whether they will be a viable product or not remains to be seen.

Don't do it, it's a troll trap!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Shooter08]

Haven't read much of this thread, but didn't Cue-tech already do the composite shaft thing. I'll very happily buy 3 maple 13mm custom made shafts over a composite shaft for $600 because of deflection properties, you have to compensate regardless. Larry Nevel told me he doesn't like those "predator" shafts, grouping all LD shafts together, he said they won't do what he wants to do with a shaft. That is all I needed to cut through the hype, he plays damn good without LD "technology".

 

[mrinsatiable]

haters going to hate

haters going to hate....but the reality is that this shaft hasn't been on the market long enough for people to have an accurate opinion on how it really plays. If you simply group this shaft along with the old cheap Cuetec products then you really don't have the exposure necessary to compare what it really is.

Predator put in lots of research and development to produce a very high quality product that would break the mold from traditional maple shafts. I was told its been in development for over 5 years. The material itself is not carbon fiber as you know it. There is no similarity between the material they used and the carbon fiber you see in other products ie.car parts or fishing rods, tennis rackets. I looked very closely for a very long time and couldn't find a weave pattern. It seemed like it was made from a solid blackish rod not a hallow tube. But the exact science of how they made it are unknown to me as i didn't have a stake in production.

In terms of how it hits...it's not like wood...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It hits solid, it spins well and it's super accurate. They spent lots of time time to replicate the solid hit of a traditional shaft but with low deflection. Is it wood? of course not..but it could be a better alternative.

The benefit lies in the consistent shape and condition. Considering how much it takes to make a shaft buttery smooth and clean. If you're open enough to see the benefits of something that is deadly accurate and low maintenance. Then this might be for you. Logically you could leave this shaft in your car and not have to worry about it warping or bending due to heat. Not have to worry about dinging or denting the shafts from normal play. Not have to pay someone to clean,wax or polish up my shaft before a big tournament. Those are all great to me.

The people who talk negatively about this type of product are the same people who argue about the properties of low deflection cues. That was 20 years ago and it's still around today.

Simply put whether it's discussion about solid maple vs low deflection, or wood shaft vs artificial composite, the industry of Pool cues are advancing and allowing players more options than ever before. It's up to you to determine what's best for your game. I'm just thankful that the time has finally come where i can have a shaft that will last me a lifetime.

 

[SamLambert]

haters going to hate....but the reality is that this shaft hasn't been on the market long enough for people to have an accurate opinion on how it really plays. If you simply group this shaft along with the old cheap Cuetec products then you really don't have the exposure necessary to compare what it really is.

Predator put in lots of research and development to produce a very high quality product that would break the mold from traditional maple shafts. I was told its been in development for over 5 years. The material itself is not carbon fiber as you know it. There is no similarity between the material they used and the carbon fiber you see in other products ie.car parts or fishing rods, tennis rackets. I looked very closely for a very long time and couldn't find a weave pattern. It seemed like it was made from a solid blackish rod not a hallow tube. But the exact science of how they made it are unknown to me as i didn't have a stake in production.

In terms of how it hits...it's not like wood...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It hits solid, it spins well and it's super accurate. They spent lots of time time to replicate the solid hit of a traditional shaft but with low deflection. Is it wood? of course not..but it could be a better alternative.

The benefit lies in the consistent shape and condition. Considering how much it takes to make a shaft buttery smooth and clean. If you're open enough to see the benefits of something that is deadly accurate and low maintenance. Then this might be for you. Logically you could leave this shaft in your car and not have to worry about it warping or bending due to heat. Not have to worry about dinging or denting the shafts from normal play. Not have to pay someone to clean,wax or polish up my shaft before a big tournament. Those are all great to me.

The people who talk negatively about this type of product are the same people who argue about the properties of low deflection cues. That was 20 years ago and it's still around today.

Simply put whether it's discussion about solid maple vs low deflection, or wood shaft vs artificial composite, the industry of Pool cues are advancing and allowing players more options than ever before. It's up to you to determine what's best for your game. I'm just thankful that the time has finally come where i can have a shaft that will last me a lifetime.

Well said.

 

[riskytrousers]

It's funny, it hasn't been on the market at all yet some people are already slamming it for being an overpriced piece of crap. Maybe some people are afraid of change?

I'll reserve my judgement until I can get my hands on one.

Riskytrousers <----- hoping for a fun new toy but won't be surprised if it's DOA

 

[JoeyInCali]

Will it have maple tip backing?
Sorry. just couldn't resist.

 

[GB Basher]

haters going to hate....but the reality is that this shaft hasn't been on the market long enough for people to have an accurate opinion on how it really plays. If you simply group this shaft along with the old cheap Cuetec products then you really don't have the exposure necessary to compare what it really is.

Predator put in lots of research and development to produce a very high quality product that would break the mold from traditional maple shafts. I was told its been in development for over 5 years. The material itself is not carbon fiber as you know it. There is no similarity between the material they used and the carbon fiber you see in other products ie.car parts or fishing rods, tennis rackets. I looked very closely for a very long time and couldn't find a weave pattern. It seemed like it was made from a solid blackish rod not a hallow tube. But the exact science of how they made it are unknown to me as i didn't have a stake in production.

In terms of how it hits...it's not like wood...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It hits solid, it spins well and it's super accurate. They spent lots of time time to replicate the solid hit of a traditional shaft but with low deflection. Is it wood? of course not..but it could be a better alternative.

The benefit lies in the consistent shape and condition. Considering how much it takes to make a shaft buttery smooth and clean. If you're open enough to see the benefits of something that is deadly accurate and low maintenance. Then this might be for you. Logically you could leave this shaft in your car and not have to worry about it warping or bending due to heat. Not have to worry about dinging or denting the shafts from normal play. Not have to pay someone to clean,wax or polish up my shaft before a big tournament. Those are all great to me.

The people who talk negatively about this type of product are the same people who argue about the properties of low deflection cues. That was 20 years ago and it's still around today.

Simply put whether it's discussion about solid maple vs low deflection, or wood shaft vs artificial composite, the industry of Pool cues are advancing and allowing players more options than ever before. It's up to you to determine what's best for your game. I'm just thankful that the time has finally come where i can have a shaft that will last me a lifetime.

I don't think Predator are interested in selling a shaft that 'lasts a lifetime'
That does not sound like good business for them imo

 

[Hairy-Redneck]

who has one of these shafts? I want to split one of these on a band saw and reverse engineer it. I was told it's a carbon fiber tube that all they do is fill it with some type of foam (proabably the same shitty foam they've been using all these years). add a tip and joint and you have a $500-$700 product that costs about $40-$50 to make. Thanks but no thanks. Thats why probably why theyre made in America because if the Chinese saw how simple it is too make.....we all know what would happen.

 

[mrinsatiable]

Companies are always interested in increasing sales by bringing in new products to the market. This falls into that category. If it sells a few of these shafts and the profit is 2 to 3 times that of any other product they carry it could be somewhat in their interest to sell these.

But as far as longevity...i don't see any other factors that would wear down this type of shaft other than having it re-tipped.

I don't think Predator are interested in selling a shaft that 'lasts a lifetime'
That does not sound like good business for them imo

 

[mrinsatiable]

If i ever learned anything about merchandise..it's that if someone can make it....someone else can reverse engineer it and make a similar item if not the same item.

The difficulty lies in four parts:

- sourcing the raw materials
- machinery
- finding the production technique
- cost of production

anyone of those things can be a huge obstacle to overcome but once they're all in place. Bingo.

Look at fake hand bags or rolex watches...

the counterfeit industry can be so amazing at times...but for some it's never the same actual item.

who has one of these shafts? I want to split one of these on a band saw and reverse engineer it. I was told it's a carbon fiber tube that all they do is fill it with some type of foam (proabably the same shitty foam they've been using all these years). add a tip and joint and you have a $500-$700 product that costs about $40-$50 to make. Thanks but no thanks. Thats why probably why theyre made in America because if the Chinese saw how simple it is too make.....we all know what would happen.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Behind times

who has one of these shafts? I want to split one of these on a band saw and reverse engineer it. I was told it's a carbon fiber tube that all they do is fill it with some type of foam (proabably the same shitty foam they've been using all these years). add a tip and joint and you have a $500-$700 product that costs about $40-$50 to make. Thanks but no thanks. Thats why probably why theyre made in America because if the Chinese saw how simple it is too make.....we all know what would happen.

Predator moved there factory to china years ago.