Predator news...

[shanesinnott]

Corey,

Interesting post!

You made some statements that I would like to address:

"The Tiger "X" Laminated Shaft achieves lesser cue ball deflection that a standard maple cue shaft with the tip / ferrule combo reducing weight induced tip-end deflection."
I am not sure if I understand this claim and I am also curious as to how you know this as fact

"We don't use robots to test these types of things."
I think this is a mistake, I believe Tiger Products could learn a lot from a Robot/stroke machine

We have strictly gone by R & D with some of the top players in the game (Shawn Putnam., Troy Frank., George “Ginky” SanSouci, Stefano Pelinga, and myself to name a few. Want more, go here to see who uses our product http://www.tigerproducts.com/proplayers.htm#ProPlayers ).
I would have thought that 'strictly going by R&D' would involve something less subjective than opinions from players

Speaking of Platinum Billiards Test results, in the past we have requested that remove their testing of our product
Yes you have and we will not

There is no validity to this testing.
What kind of validity would you expect or like?

We never provided any product to them for testing
This is true and neither did any of the other manufacturers. I personally bought the products from distributors so that we could do our testing. When I first started Platinum I had no product to test and decided it would be quicker and fairer to just buy the product than to spend time trying to convince each and every manufacturer that we wanted them to send us cues and shafts for free so we could test them and publish the results for all the world to see

We have no idea what kind of set up was involved with said testing.
This is true and if you had asked I would have and can explain our 'set up' One thing we are not going to do is teach other companies how to do what we do as the test results are a big part of who we are and how we have grown so quickly. I feel it would be foolish to publish pictures and video and diagrams on 'How to setup your own pool cue testing facility'

There has never been any evidence provided to us of that this testing even took place.
Are you questioning my integrity Corey? This statement doesn't even deserve a response and frankly surprises me

In the last 3 years, the "X" Laminated Shafts has undergone a great deal of development in manufacturing technique, materials, taper and finish. The supposed results shown by Platinum’s tests are several years old.
We tested the X shaft. Yes, the test was done over 2 years ago as was the test on many other products. As manufacturers have released new and improved versions of products we have tested those and updated the results. If the X shaft has undergone improvements to its performance, send us 4 and we will test them and gladly publish the results and return the product to you after it has been tested

This whole testing affair is quite subjective considering that Platinum Billiards is not an independent testing facility; they are one of the largest Predator Dealers out there (the owner once worked for Predator).
You are correct that Platinum Billiards Inc. Is among other things, one of the largest Predator Dealers in the world. We also own pool player websites that we created for players free of charge, we have a website www.platinumbilliards.com that sells over 1600 products (your companies included) We do live tournament coverage, we sponsor pool players and pool tours and we also have a testing facility in Daytona, Florida that we have pool cues tested at. I would agree that if we were a manufacturer, our testing could not be considered independent, but we are not a manufacturer and we do have an independent testing facility that we use to test cues.

Platinum has refused to remove these supposed testing results.
Yes we have. Pool players want to know how products perform and they want to hear how a Tiger shaft performs from someone other than Tiger and 'Tiger Players' We apparently are the only non-manufacturer of pool cues that I know of that has gone to significant expense to set up a testing facility to test pool cues and to publish these results. We are not going to remove test results because a manufacturer is unhappy, we would hope that the manufacturer will improve their product and send us the new and improved version for testing

We at Tiger Products welcome an open testing competition of Laminated Cue Shaft and the completed cues that are from the same manufacturer by an independent testing firm. Let's really see!
What is an independent testing firm?

I have personally contacted all three of the major billiards magazines about this issue and none will touch the issue as they are concerned about alienating one or all of their cue/shaft advertisers.
I am not surprised

Ideally, the customer(s) should decide what they want from a high-performance cue/shaft combo, and an independent make an objective comparison.
They do and we are

All of our competition makes a fine product, but you should be the judge of what works best for you!

We gladly challenge the following:

Predator
Universal Smart Shaft / Lucasi
McDermott ICE Shafts / Cues
Meucci Black, Red or whatever color dot they have
OB-1 shafts / Cues

And whoever else wants in. Let’s limit it to 7 (just a nice number).

We are happy to share the costs involved with each of the participants.

The gauntlet has been thrown
I think this is a great Idea and wish you the best of luck with it


We will continue to sell Tiger Products as I believe you make a good product. But I can't say the same for this last post, I guess we all have bad days!

In closing, as I said before, send us product for Testing if you would like to have the test results updated with the new and improved Tiger X Shaft and Tiger Cues.

You mentioned that "In the last 3 years, the "X" Laminated Shafts has undergone a great deal of development in manufacturing technique, materials, taper and finish." Does this mean that all of this has changed in some way in the last 3 years? If that is the case, you may want to let your customers and the pool playing public know that they can now buy the new and improved X shaft as their old one may not be as good. We now know this which is why we are anxious to test the 'new' X shaft.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

CrownCityCorey,
Surely you aren't saying that you think the X shaft creates less cue ball squirt than those others?

No one said this.

 

[DoomCue]

This entire thread is nothing more than anti-foreign bias. The media, whose main focus is exploiting your fears, has done a wonderful job with the American perception of outsourcing. Most Americans believe that outsourcing is the great scourge of American business. This is a myth, people, just as the belief that George Washington was the first President of the US is (he was actually the EIGHTH!).

Fact: over 1.5 million jobs were lost in 2004 due to mass layoffs (more than 50 people at a time) - recent stats are hard to find
Fact: less than ONE PERCENT of those jobs lost were due to foreign relocation (aka "outsourcing")

There are very few things in this country that are wholly American - that's why the slogan is "Buy American-Made." There's a big difference between "buying American" (virtually impossible) and "buying American-made."

It's funny to me that a country founded by immigrants for immigrants is so biased against foreigners. This country wouldn't be where it is without foreigners or foreign products.

"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides when a colourful flag is unfurled"

-djb <-- thinks ignorance is NOT bliss

 

[Fuji-whopper]

That's really good/interesting information, thank you DoomCue.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

What is an independent testing firm?

This would be an organization or person that has no financial or otherwise interest in the final results of said test.

Also, such a thing should be done on multiple criteria. I have played with many a cue & shaft combo. There is nothing wrong persay with any of them.

Like I said, all of our competitors make a fine product and most also meet their claims, however not all that they claim is a benefit.

 

[Craig Fales]

Here is the thing.

A cue, shaft, joint, etc, made for Predator, Adams, whomever, is engineered to meet certain "specs" when manufactured in bulk. I'm no engineer so I can't relay the technical terms, but here is my point. If the product (for example a Predator 314 shaft or a Varney Break/Jump, whatever...) is being made to the exact same specs/standards, whether being done by one person in a custom shop, or 25 factory workers in China, then essentially the outcome is the same.

Except that's not what usually happens....

We shouldn't be so blind to believe that just because a product comes from an overseas market and not "made in America", that it will be inferior. I've ready in particular about the exacting standards, and superb work ethic of the Japanese workforce. This is why all of their companies, products, etc have been such a success in America. Superb quality for superb prices.

That wasn't always the case with Japan...and with China perhaps in 20 ~ 25 years they will consistently put out a quality product...it doesn't seem to matter what company moves production to China the quality goes down....coincidence? I don't think so....
________

 

[cigardave]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with China's manufacturing capabilities. You might be surprised to find out that the tail of the airplane that you're flying from LA to NYC was manufactured in China.

I have no doubt that the Chinese are just as capable as Americans at gluing together ten pieces of wood.

 

[X Breaker]

Corey,

I remember talking to Tony years ago in the BCA expo in Vegas when the X shaft was just out, and he told me he did not want his X shaft to be like the 314. I think it makes a lot of sense.

In my opinion, there are a lot more to a good shaft than deflection alone.

Are these tests done independently at Platinum? With all due respect, since nothing has been disclosed, how can we know? Also, it depends on their definition of "independent."

I do know from talking to a Predator employee (Neil F) in Valley that Predator had access to such testing robot at Platinum as he knew exactly how the test was conducted.

Are these tests biased? Well, if I have access to a testing facility and I know the person doing the test while my competitors do not, will I have an advantage over others in designing a product to perform really well in these tests?

Also, just because such tests were passed based on criteria set out by one company, which marketing claim was to build shafts and cues to satisfy these criteria to begin with, does that mean the cues build by this company is really the "best" in terms of "performance" when they are used in a real game by real players?

If certain company can have access to this facility and others don't, is this test really aimed at offering a 100% fair result. Especially when this said company happens to be the manufacturer of which the tester is the biggest dealer of, and also was his ex employee, with all due respect, I can really see why Corey is concerned about the validity and motive of the test.

Shane, I am sorry if this offends you. I am just stating a logical deduction I draw from the facts I have gathered. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not questioning your integrity here.

Besides, human and robots are just too different. For example, we hold our cues with human flesh, some hold it loose, some hold it tight. We will have problem swinging a 50oz cue. There are all kinds of aiming systems and methods to apply english such as twisting ones wrist, swinging ones forearm, dropping one's elbow...

I happen to think that feedback is much more important than a percentage of deflection when I try out a shaft. I need to try the shaft myself. That data does not really tell me anything.

Corey, I am glad you are seeking professional opinion in researching your product. I know a lot of players chose to play with your shaft even though they could get a 314 or other shafts for free.

One very important thing about a shaft is the taper. I do not know why anyone would believe one taper will fit all players and offers the best performance. A taper of a shaft has everything to do with "performance."

To advertise a single taper would offer the best "performance" is like saying one type of girl with a certain figure is the best for all men.

Isn't using the "deflection" percentage to "educate" the public on what the best shaft is is almost like using the breast size of a women to define if she is perfect to be your wife or not. So, is a bigger number better for everyone?

I have always asked myself this question: if a shaft does not react the same way everytime, what is so meaningful about a low deflection number?

If a shaft cannot produce a consistent result, how do you expect to control your cue ball with this shaft?

Isn't it more important to test the consistency of cue ball positioning and feel of the shot with a shaft? After all, cue ball control is everything in wining a game. I am talking about the consistency in "deflection." If 314 is really that consistency, why do they hit differently from one shaft to another. What is the meaning of this test showing this "deflection" number, which varies from one shaft to another?

What is their sample size in these tests?

Shane said he wanted 4 shafts, so are 4 shafts all they have tested to come up with their data?

To use a sample size of 4 seems a bit too low and inaccurate to me. So, 4 shaft is like may be 0.0001 % or less of the shafts Predator builds in a year?

I have to say if only a sample size of about 0.0001% was used to come up with these data, then the result really serves no purpose nor meaning in providing customers with any accurate representation.

Shane also said he would buy the shafts or cues himself, so do they buy only 1, or 4, or how many do they buy? These are very important information that are left out in their test reports.

Anyone with any scientific background would tell you in order to obtain a set of meaningful data, they need to have a much bigger sample size. If you think about how many shafts are produced in China for Predator now, you have to agree that the sample has to be at least in the hundreds in order for the tests to have any meaning.

If providing a fair and meaningful test result is all why Platinum is doing their tests, then I would have to say they should also update their result and provide data to the customers as to when their testing samples were obtained. Without such, the test results are misleading to say the least.

To list testing result of a product that is no longer available on the market along with other products that are avaliable, without disclosing such, is also misleading.

A customer who reads the data of the X shaft will not know that this data were obtained 2 years or so ago, from an unknown source, in an unknown condition(it could have been warpped and really beat up for agrument's sake).

Most importantly, this shaft is not the same as what is offered by Tiger today and is no longer being sold on the market place; therefore, it is misleading to the customers and is an inaccurate representation of the product.

I also remember reading on the Platinum site that they will only list products that are currently being sold to the public, I am not sure why was an old X shaft listed?

Once again, Shane, I am expressing my opinion on the test, and it is not personal. I apologize if any of what I said offends you. They were not meant to be. I am expressing my opinion about the tests and the X shaft issue, not you personally.

Having said that, I would appreciate an answer to my concerns. You have asked us to send you our cues a few times. If I am satisfied that your test is done accurately and is truly unbiased, I may consider doing it in the future.

Shane, you asked what is an unbiased source, I would think a company which specializes in consumer reports, without any direct involvement in the billiard industry, to be unbiased. It all depends on the motive in my opinion.

You see companies like that with eletronic products. They are running tests to help consumers to have an understanding of new products and the pros and cons of products. The tests were not done to generate web traffic in order to try sell more cues.

Corey, I wish you would continue to offer some shafts with outstanding quality to players who are looking for a great hitting shafts. A lot of knowledgable players are very sensitive to the way a shaft plays, and they are not looking for the shaft with the least squirt.

A lot of players are looking for a shaft with a consistent feedback and hit, in order to control their cue ball consistently.

I am sure there is a market out there, especially with the more advanced players.

Best wishes,

Richard

 

[Nostroke]

We never provided any product to them for testing
This is true and neither did any of the other manufacturers. I personally bought the products from distributors so that we could do our testing. When I first started Platinum I had no product to test and decided it would be quicker and fairer to just buy the product than to spend time trying to convince each and every manufacturer that we wanted them to send us cues and shafts for free so we could test them and publish the results for all the world to see

[/B]

Any products tested should always be procured on the open market. To do otherwise is just begging for a ringer product.

 

[Nostroke]

This entire thread is nothing more than anti-foreign bias. The media, whose main focus is exploiting your fears, has done a wonderful job with the American perception of outsourcing. Most Americans believe that outsourcing is the great scourge of American business. This is a myth, people, just as the belief that George Washington was the first President of the US is (he was actually the EIGHTH!)

http://66.165.133.65/history/american/hanson.htm

 

[Irish634]

This entire thread is nothing more than anti-foreign bias. The media, whose main focus is exploiting your fears, has done a wonderful job with the American perception of outsourcing. Most Americans believe that outsourcing is the great scourge of American business. This is a myth, people, just as the belief that George Washington was the first President of the US is (he was actually the EIGHTH!).

Fact: over 1.5 million jobs were lost in 2004 due to mass layoffs (more than 50 people at a time) - recent stats are hard to find
Fact: less than ONE PERCENT of those jobs lost were due to foreign relocation (aka "outsourcing")

There are very few things in this country that are wholly American - that's why the slogan is "Buy American-Made." There's a big difference between "buying American" (virtually impossible) and "buying American-made."

It's funny to me that a country founded by immigrants for immigrants is so biased against foreigners. This country wouldn't be where it is without foreigners or foreign products.



-djb <-- thinks ignorance is NOT bliss

Well I am not saying you are wrong, but I am simply stating my opinion, because my company cut 35% of it's WORLD WIDE work force to move to the competitive markets in China and Malaysia. Roughly 10,000 or so jobs were lost in the US because the billion dollar company wanted to increase its profit margin and give the CEO 14 million in performance bonuses when the stock had lost 70%.... (I have the article of his salary if you'd like to see it). Many Americans, Mexicans, and other immigrants DID lose their jobs to overseas competition, at least from our company. I do believe that these people that lost their jobs were offered re-training and college as part of the unemployment package (I think that is a law). Did they accept? I don't know. As far as foreign capabilities... I speak from first hand in the printed circuit board industry, that the Asian market DOES NOT and CAN NOT build the level of technology in circuit boards that we do. Are they far behind? Absolutely not. But the technology orders keeps coming back.

Yes this country was founded on immigration, my great grandparents to be specific were immigrants. But when they came here there were not the laws we have today. Maybe we should use the term "undocumented" instead of "illegal" --- But that is a topic for another thread and not to be confused with this topic.

Another part of this thread discusses the "testing" of shafts and cues. I do not work for Platinum Billiards, don't know anyone there, and have never purchased anything from them. But, as a "data driven" electrical engineer, if someone can show me the data, I am more apt to rely on statistics. However, one has to have enough data to make the testing worthwhile and also. Personal opinion can be a very powerful tool, but one has to weigh how much of it is actually unbiased. Not to plug the cue or shaft I use, but what I use feels good to ME and unless I actually compare for myself I am probably not going to change. So am I biased? Sure. But what I play with, may not suit the next 100 people that walk in the door. Richard... I agree with your post. When it comes to cues there has to be the individual's personal feel to account for.

I would also consider Platinum Billiards to be "independent" as they are not a cue maker. Are there are higher profits for one cue over another? I am sure there are, but I don't know of one company (public or private) that would disclose that information.



My apologies if I have offended anyone. It was not my intention. Just my 2 and a half cents.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Any products tested should always be procured on the open market. To do otherwise is just begging for a ringer product.

I wonder if "Car & Driver", "Road & Track" or "Consumer Reports" purchases the vehicles they have for comparisons?

 

[onepocketchump]

Your statement about seeing cues made in the far east built as good and or better than S/W cues is mighty hard to believe. How many of them have you been using for the last 10 to 15 years to have the knowledge of this being a fact and not just an opinion? I've worked on many thousands of cues and as far as I'm concerned, none are built as good as a S/W cue. I can put a butt to a 10 year old S/W cue in my lathe, screw on the shaft and start the lathe with no fear of the shaft occilating at all. It will run just as true as the day it was made. I would not do that with any other cue made in the world.

Dick

Dick, you know me and you know how much experience I have with cues. Now, I can't sit here and tell you with absolute certainty that the cues I am talking about will hold up as well as a SouthWest or be as true as a SouthWest in five or ten years. I am telling you that the cues hit like a SouthWest, felt like a Southwest, had no obvious quality issues and were technically perfect in fit and finish.

I have in my warehouse right now a batch of Lishan cues with spliced infinite points. These cues are approximately 10+ years old. Most of them are warped. Some of them however, are dead straight, and I mean DEAD NUTS STRAIGHT. Now, if a factory can produce cues that remain straight by accident they they can darn sure do it on purpose.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Hey John, when the name calling begins, the communication has been lost. Don't get your pantys in a wad because I expressed your business policy. I know a hell of a lot more than you think I do. You also seem to use the word "WE" a lot in your responce. Who is WE John?
I do not buy chep inferior products, so we won't be doing much business together buddy. I wish you all the success that you deserve.
Purdman

I used "we" once and it means I speak for all of those who actually have experience in the field we are discussing here. We would like to know what YOUR level of expertise is in order to make the statements you make. Yeah, you're right, when the name calling starts, as in when you called me a liar, or just what did you mean by calling my statements bullshit?

You know nothing about my business policy. If you did then you would know that I have consistently provided those in the billiard industry with good products at fair prices. You are the one who has the agenda here not me. You want to promote yourself as some sort of expert although you have nearly zero credentials.

I am in this discussion because I know more than you do about it. Your ignorant statements and name calling do nothing to add to the discussion. All you are doing is increasing my ire. Which is something you do know a little about. I'll tell you what, start a discussion on the heating and air business and I will make some ignorant uninformed and uneducated personal slurs about you and your business. Then we'll see how well you respond.

John

 

[Nostroke]

I wonder if "Car & Driver", "Road & Track" or "Consumer Reports" purchases the vehicles they have for comparisons?

Well if they dont, they have a method of selecting a random product. I mean if they just call up and say deliver a Hyundai X10 to Consumer Reports for testing, do you think they wind up with a typical product that you and i might buy or one that has been given some extra care, triple checked, screws tightened etc?

Edit-From the Consumer Reports web site:



How we test

Test

Our National Testing and Research Center, in Yonkers, N.Y., is the largest nonprofit educational and consumer product testing center in the world. Research and testing are pivotal components of the work of Consumer Reports.

Before a product even enters one of the dozens of labs at our Yonkers headquarters, it has been subjected to considerable research. We gather data about products and services, about consumer demand in the marketplace, and about what our subscribers plan to purchase. Editorial, technical, and research staff then scrutinize that material, along with suggestions from our subscribers, to develop our testing schedule.

After additional research to define a project's scope, staff shoppers--assisted by a network of shoppers in 65 U.S. cities--buy the products we use as test samples.

To supplement laboratory testing, the survey research department gathers the experiences that hundreds of thousands of our subscribers have had with products and services through an annual questionnaire. Those results are the basis of our well-known auto Frequency-of-Repair index and other product'
End Quote

Car and Driver on the other hand may not do true testing-they may just do information gathering/feature appraisal type of thing wherein they would borrow a vehicle.

 

[onepocketchump]

I guess you missed the whole exploiting cheap labor at the expense of domestic labor thing. If everything is manufactured overseas people in north america won't have the money to buy all these products. Economics 202.

Um, I guess you didn't finish econ 202. First, in a country the size of the USA there will always be large manufacturing base. We cannot import everything it is not physically possible or fiscally feasible. Secondly, tariffs, transport costs, mergers, language barriers and a host of other criteria drive foreign compamies to set up production in America. Thirdly, when America moves away from the production of cheap consumables it focuses more on hard-to-produce items requiring substantial research, development and oversight. And lastly, we aren't discussing the exploitation of cheap labor - that's what you do when you have anyone do a black market job for far less than the going rate and don't pay any taxes on it.

We are discussing production in places where the cost of living is far less and so consequently the average wages are also far less. Sure people are exploited in sweatshops. The majority of factories in China and Taiwan are not sweatshops however and the workers are treated with dignity and respect and receive fair wages for thier economy.

In places like Saipan however the workers are rountinely abused. If you want to make an issue of exploitation then do your research and become an activist. Don't just assume that every worker in the world is underpaid and exploited. For that matter you can look at the sweatshops in NYC and LA to find the jobs you so desire.

John