Predator - Pay More, Get Less?

you are right

etimmons said:
The supreme court just ruled in a similar case and said what predator is doing is legal. I think the case had to do with hand bags.
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I read about a ruling saying price fixing by the manufacturer was legal too. Of course the government isn't doing anything else to protect the consumer in the marketplace it would be silly to expect them to act here.

Bottom line, all retail is getting into fewer and fewer hands. All of the gas company and car company mergings should have been shut down and how ridiculous is letting ATT and South Central Bell reunite? Letting Wal-Mart expand in all directions?

The consumer is bottom man on the totem pole and as long as the big companies can buy our politicians nothing is going to change. Predator isn't that big but they are riding on the coattails of rulings favoring bigger operators.

Hu
 
i think people need to seperate the legal aspect of this issue from the moral aspect and their dislike of predator
 
The thing I find funny i guess, is that if you find yourself complaining about the price of a predator, go look up the price of a 4 Point Scruggs, Bludworth, Diekman, Wayne, or a nice Gilbert. And then try to haggle with them about thier pricing.

Also, if you dont like the pricing of a Predator, dont buy the damn cue! buy something else that you feel is more in line with what you want, Or feel gives you the best bang for your buck.
 
Ok, I gave the example of PING, and their pricing polocies, but I've got something much worse than what Predator and PING are doing....

Example - Guitar Center....they come into a town, sell guitars FAR under what any other retailer can (or give perks with purchases that are unbeatable if say Gibson or Fender has a "fixed" price - such as a free case, practice amp, etc. worth in excess of a couple hundred bucks). Guitar Center is willing to LOSE money for the first couple of years at a location so that competitors can't keep up, and have to close their doors....then GC can raise the prices to where they should be, and have no competition. Now, that is what is wrong with BIG RETAIL....LOSE money, gain customers, shut down competitors, and then raise the prices; good plan if you have a zillion stores....bye bye mom & pop!!!
 
I appreciate your concern toward the "open market" theory and the benefits that they provide to the consumer. But we must keep in mind the minimum pricing is alive an well in many markets. Guns, milk, real estate commissions, etc.

Predator, in my opinion, is doing a good thing. It keeps prices in line throughout the dealers. Having a 20% discount off the retail price works for all of the dealers. Some may choose to discount only 10% some 15%, it depends on the market in the dealers area. Others will have to discount the full 20%. This way most people will not feel cheated in the particular dealer areas.
 
In my business most higher end manufacturers use map pricing. It is meant to help both specialized retailers as well as as being a tool not to devalue the product. Policy like this has been around forever to protect small specialists against the big box stores. Since the Internet, enforcing it has become near impossible. Sore subject to most of us self employed retailers.

SoundWaves>>Self employed MAP pricing Predator owner
 
BarringerCues said:
However, should industry leaders cower in light of Predator's, what I like to term as illegal price fixing, then the consumers should vote with their pocket-books and boycott Predator products until such time as to break the back of Predator to remove price fixing tactics from their distributors. In addition, Brunswick, McDermott, Viking and Pechauer are also 'price fixing' to their distributors with the same maximum 20% discount to consumers on advertised pricing (Pechauer 10%). Where will it end?

Where does the problem really begin. I don't think one can fault Predator itself but one needs to look into the background and recent history of the company and its management. This writer believes Predator has lost sight of itself being an American Company. At one time Predator manufactured all its products right here in sunny Jacksonville, Florida. However, to increase profits and produce more product for less money, Predator abandoned American workers and went over seas to Communist China. In dealing with the Communists, perhaps now one can understand Predator's way of thinking and their stance on price fixing as a way of life. Predator needs to wake up and realize that this is the USA and we?re not Communists ruled by a dictator. And, Predator cannot dictate to its distributors at what price they can or cannot sell their products. We have freedom of speech and freedom of choice and freedom to compete without restraint.

Predator Products anyone?
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This has NOTHING to do with where Predator or any company manufactures their goods.

Price Fixing is illegal and primarily refers to the collusion among suppliers.

For example: if Predator were to get with Royce Bunnel and Tiger and they all agreed to set a price for laminated shafts then that would be price fixing.

If Barringer and Seyberts were to collude and decide to set a price for a product then that would be price fixing.

Predator can request to a downline dealer that the price for an item not be advertised at lower than 20%. They can request that certain guidelines are adhered to. Some of their requests are within the law and some are probably against the law or ripe for challenge.

Predator cannot force a dealer to actually "sell" a product to a consumer for a set amount though. Not officially. The transaction itself for goods wholly owned by the dealer is between the dealer and his customer.

None of this pertains to WHERE a product is made though. You really need to stick to the issues at hand. Predator is 100% to blame for any foibles it's makes in regard to setting prices and being heavy handed with dealers.

If they are in the right then you have to live with it. If they are wrong then you either live with it or fight it. If Predator's policies are adversely affecting your business then you may have grounds to sue them.

If you don't have grounds though and you try to win in the court of public opinion then you are making your legal position worse in my opinion.
 
Havent read all of the posts but Meucci has been doing this for ages. Some websites will discount more but they do it in the shopping cart section or you have to contact them directly.
 
Fatboy said:
i read most of that quickly and it looks like a Sherman Anti-trust case to me in the real world however they are a small fish in the business world and whos gonna bring the case foward, its too small in the grand scheme of things and their cues suck anyways.
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Nope, a Trust refers to a collusion between suppliers to control prices and eliminate competition that does not adhere to the Trust's policies.

If Predator were in a Trust with all the other manufacturers of cue to control pricing then the distributers would really be hurting because they would have no choice but to obey.

As it stands a dealer/distributer can move their purchasing to another supplier easily. They can sell Tiger shafts, OB1, Meucci, and whatever else is out there (or whatever else is likely to come around in the near future, wink wink.)

Were this a trust case then the dealer and by extension the consumer would have no choice on price and limited choice on selection.

That is not the case. Whether Predator can legally "cut off" a dealer is another issue. There is something called restraint of trade which comes into play. Distributers rarely cut someone off - they just tell the dealer that they are "out of stock" or "backordered".
 
John,

As you know, Predator has had an MAP for a while now. The new policy is an MSP (minimum selling price) They are saying to their dealers that they can't SELL their product to the end user for a price that is less than 20% off the MSRP.

Just wanted to make sure this was clear.
 
PoolSponge said:
What would Predator tell is dealers not to sell below a margin? It keeps dealers fair. Less price slashing and wars that would inevitably destroy the brand credentials and eventually find dealers selling at nearly a loss.
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This is very true, and I've seen it happen in my industry where price competition is so fierce that people are making very little money. In turn, people have very little incentive promote the product.
 
Perhaps there is one more thing behind this MSP policy and that would be keeping the resale value of their cues higher, ot at least preventing it to go way too down. I suppose that this is not the first, nor the second cause/reason for making this policy but this might be a small part of the story too.
What is more is that poolsponge was very right indeed.
 
shanesinnott said:
John,

As you know, Predator has had an MAP for a while now. The new policy is an MSP (minimum selling price) They are saying to their dealers that they can't SELL their product to the end user for a price that is less than 20% off the MSRP.

Just wanted to make sure this was clear.
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I didn't know. We stopped selling Predators a year or so ago.

Good luck with dictating the retail price to individuals. I was under the impression that once I purchase a product that it is my property to do with what I will. If I want to sell a Predator cue for 50% I can. Or if I want to give it away then I can do that as well.

Predator is not a shareholder in my business they have no right to dictate to me what price I negotiate with my customers.

They can cut me off if they choose to I suppose but I am not sure that they are operating within the law.

I don't care though. We replaced Predator with Tiger shafts and we sell plenty of those. And we are gong to come out with our own laminated shaft soon that is the nuts. And we have the marketing money to go head to head with Predator.

Our data will be published for scrutiny. Not marketing hype but real hard data so anyone can duplicate the tests and get the same results.

So, sorry for all the Predator sellers and customers. We don't have that problem.
 
Going into this reply I will state for the record.

I do NOT have a Predator shaft.

That being said, I do not think what they are doing is illegal they just want to guarentee what there cues and shafts sell for retail.

However it would be illegal if they were doing this because they had gotten together with OB1 and whoever else make laminated shaft and said lets set this minimum price then that would be price fixing.

The law is to keep the various companies from working together to set prices and "shaft the buyer" so to say. :)

All it look like is that Predator wants to keep their prices up there which adds percieved value to the line. It is also to protect the other retailers selling the same line.

If I was a retailer and I priced my high end laminated shafts for MSRP out of my my 3000-5000 dollar per month retail suite along with whatever other overpriced items I was selling then I would be upset if I saw a place selling the same items online for 40% off list.

This brand pricing is true for many items, if the retailers sell for to large of a discount then they get the dealership pulled. I do not think this is only for Loius Vitton or those type of items.

I think high end production cues are a market segment that the producers want to protect the price point at least on the retail level. You want to sell their shafts but want to be able to charge whatever you want to sell them for, I applaud that, please sell the ones you have for any price you like.

I also agree with them if you want to sell them for less than we suggest then you do not want to be on the Predator team so we will not sell to you anymore.

As for talking about pool sponsorship etc who cares, it is obvious to me that pool companies are not getting super rich like buy a small island and retire. If they think they will sell more shafts by sponsoring someone then they will and if they pull the sponsorships and see no difference in sales then what good were the sponsorships doing for the company anyway. If a player is to be sponsored then the company should see a return for the outlay on their part. If the sponsorship does not return a sales increase then it is just welfare for the player.

I cannot tell you when I purchased an item because a big name person said they used the product. I buy stuff I like. I like quality and will pay what it costs. A higher price does not mean an item is of higher quality.

Just my 5 cents worth.
 
The consumer has the power

I am not a regular poster to this former, however I am a regular reader, and this post has inspired me to to respond.

The Supreme Court recently overturned lower court rulings regarding "price fixing" in the manner that is being discussed. While a jury and lower appeals courts ruled that vertical pricing structures were illegal, the supreme court overturned these rulings. In a nutshell, the defendant argued that they wanted their brand promoted in a certain way, and discounting allowed too much variation in how their brand was represented and could have potentially detrimental effects regarding the brand's value. Essentially the distributor wanted to give mom and pop stores the same ability (if not greater due to their level of personal customer service and sales support) to compete as a large retail or discount chain. This seems to me to be a reasonable attitude. I can not speak for Predator's motivations as I do not work for them, but I think they are within their rights to dictate to their customers, and therefore to to end consumer, how their product is represented.

The difference that can be made is by the retailers and the consumers. There is no doubt in my mind that while Predator's pricing policy may indeed serve to maintain a percieved value in their product, it could stand to have detrimental effects on their retailers who rely on those products for their profits by forcing consumers into a price point they simply can not afford, or will not pay.

This is where the free market system works best!

Something that should happen is that someone should build a better mousetrap cheaper. I think this is already the case in a very crowded cue market.

Something else that is eqally important is that a retailer has the ability to re-educate his consumer. If the retailer sees that this pricing policy is adversly affecting his overall sales, he has the option of buying different brands. That may mean a little more work on the retailers part though, as now he must re-educate his consumers on the product he is selling. Manufacturer and Distributor reps work all the time in other industries to educate their customers on the benefits of their product.

If you sell widget A and widget B, and widget A is advertised much more heavily and therefore asked for a great deal more, you will have to work harder to sell a customer widget B. If you do not fully understand why widget B provides greater value to your customer this is going to be a hard sell. If the widget B representative provides you with training regarding the the value of widget B, or if you are a knowledge consumer yourself and have made your decisions about the products you offer based on the overall value you personally recognize, then the sell becomes much easier. If widget A manufacturer decides that you can not sell his product for anything less then X amount, and this amount stands to hurt your overall income due to a decrease in sales, you might want to drop widget A altogether and extoll the virtues of widget B to your customer while adding widget C to your product line to offer alternatives. You might also want to keep widget A just to get the customers in the door where you can then win their business by earning their trust. Most customers appreciate not getting jerked around, and if you think widget A is overpriced and can explain to your customer why widget B has better overall value at a lesser price, then you have probably saved that customer a few bucks and earned his business on a residual basis.

It all comes down to this - Predator is whithin the law to maintain pricing and perceived value at the wholesale and retail level. If a wholesale customer of theirs is not happy about, they have two options - continue to carry the product and adhere to the guidelines set forth by Predator or drop the product line and re-educate their customers. The second option is the harder in my opinion, but as Robert Frost said

" Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. "
 
Another angle

perhaps we need to look at this from the viewpoint of having a 'profit law'.
Boy, wouldn't that set the Pharmaceutical world on fire????
 
John Barton said:
Good luck with dictating the retail price to individuals. I was under the impression that once I purchase a product that it is my property to do with what I will. If I want to sell a Predator cue for 50% I can. Or if I want to give it away then I can do that as well.
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Unfortunately, that's not correct. The manufacturer may choose something called unilateral pricing whereby every retailer selling the product must sell it for the price set by the manufacturer. Choosing to do so, and getting caught, violates the retailer agreement and loses the retailer the ability to purchase the vendor's product. Bose Corporation has done it for years, very successfully. None of their products are discounted anywhere. (Actually, if you see them discounted it's typically someone who acquired them through nefarious means, not a legit retailer, and you'll never be able to make a warranty claim.)

And it's perfectly legal so long as the manufacturer doesn't hold an overly abundant share of the market, typically >35%.

Brian in VA
 
trustyrusty said:
Example - Guitar Center....they come into a town, sell guitars FAR under what any other retailer can (or give perks with purchases that are unbeatable if say Gibson or Fender has a "fixed" price - such as a free case, practice amp, etc. worth in excess of a couple hundred bucks). Guitar Center is willing to LOSE money for the first couple of years at a location so that competitors can't keep up, and have to close their doors....then GC can raise the prices to where they should be, and have no competition. Now, that is what is wrong with BIG RETAIL....LOSE money, gain customers, shut down competitors, and then raise the prices; good plan if you have a zillion stores....bye bye mom & pop!!!
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Gibson and Fender have MAP pricing but the retailer can often get around these by offering "packages" with additional products. Electronics is famous for this.

I have to disagree that they are selling them for less than they purchased them. They are a publicly traded company, at least for now, and no retailer can get away with what you're describing. Are they getting them for less than the mom and pop places? Sure, it's a lot easier when you're buying for 200 stores instead of 1 or 2. Do they drive down costs by having more stores, less overhead, etc. Yep! That's retail. Unfortunately, the customers vote with their feet. And if they buy there instead of mom and pop, that's the breaks.

Americans can complain all they want about the Walmarts of the world, but it's our own dam fault for continuing to shop there.

Brian in VA
 
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