Preshot routine - part II on youtube

MIKE:

Very well presented. You have the makings of a great Instructor.

IMO:

1. The three segments of your PSR are slightly overlaped and possibly incorrect.
2. The "Pause" is not done during the backsroke, but at the end of the backstroke. This is the "Transition" time. There is never one smooth motion in the entire final stroke, usually two.
3. P.E.P workshop needed.

Keep up the good work. Hope to see you soon.....SPF=randyg
 
randyg said:
MIKE:

Very well presented. You have the makings of a great Instructor.

IMO:

1. The three segments of your PSR are slightly overlaped and possibly incorrect.
2. The "Pause" is not done during the backsroke, but at the end of the backstroke. This is the "Transition" time. There is never one smooth motion in the entire final stroke, usually two.
3. P.E.P workshop needed.

Keep up the good work. Hope to see you soon.....SPF=randyg
Click to expand...


Thanks for the comments Randy.

While my views are always open to change, at this point we disagree on the second sentence of item two. I think the entire execution phase should be one smooth motion.

And I have no doubt I would benefit from any of your workshops.
 
mikepage said:
Thanks for the comments Randy.

While my views are always open to change, at this point we disagree on the second sentence of item two. I think the entire execution phase should be one smooth motion.

And I have no doubt I would benefit from any of your workshops.
Click to expand...

IMO
it's impossible to not "pause" between back swing and forward swing,
however short it may be, it must be.
-cOOp

ps. I liked the videos.
 
coopdeville said:
IMO
it's impossible to not "pause" between back swing and forward swing,
however short it may be, it must be.
-cOOp

ps. I liked the videos.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I define a pause as the speed being zero and also the acceleration being zero. So, for example, when you toss a ball into the air it does not pause when it reaches the top. Sure, it's speed goes to zero, but its velocity is changing at a constant rate.

Likewise a pendulum at its turning point goes through zero velocity, but it does not pause.
 
I'm really enjoying your series, Mike - I'm even incorporating some of your points into some coaching I'm doing now.

Hope you don't mind a couple of constructive comments:

1. The red bullet points in the Planning Stage part of your first graphic are too blurry for me to read at YouTube size. The other colors are OK.

2. The graphs of stroke speed don't really communicate effectively to me. I'd rather see an actual stroke with your voiceover narrative. Maybe this takes more video editing than you're able to do?

3. You say you recommend never going back to the Planning Phase after entering the Setup Phase "for the same reason [you] recommend never negotiating with terrorists". That's a little obscure for me. Is it because it encourages being sloppy in completing the Planning Phase?

Nice stuff. Keep it up!

pj
chgo
 
mikepage said:
Thanks.

I define a pause as the speed being zero and also the acceleration being zero. So, for example, when you toss a ball into the air it does not pause when it reaches the top. Sure, it's speed goes to zero, but its velocity is changing at a constant rate.

Likewise a pendulum at its turning point goes through zero velocity, but it does not pause.
Click to expand...

If "pause" is a speed (or lack of it) then you might be right on. But if "pause" were also a transition, then it would have a value.

"All players have to pause, the good ones do it with purpose".....randyg
 
Patrick Johnson said:
2. The graphs of stroke speed don't really communicate effectively to me. I'd rather see an actual stroke with your voiceover narrative. Maybe this takes more video editing than you're able to do?
Click to expand...

I thought the same thing, it wasn't clear what the movements in that graph represent. Unless it is already showing it and I didn't realize it, you could convey the same information and also show the actual path of the tip. You could do it with a drawing instead of video.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
[...]

3. You say you recommend never going back to the Planning Phase after entering the Setup Phase "for the same reason [you] recommend never negotiating with terrorists". That's a little obscure for me. Is it because it encourages being sloppy in completing the Planning Phase?

Nice stuff. Keep it up!
Click to expand...

Thanks Pat.

Yes, I think it encourages being sloppy in completing the planning phase. And I think that has consequences for the setup phase.

For instance, if every now and then while down on the three-ball shot you notice out of the corner or your eye that the four ball (your next ball) doesn't pass into the corner pocket as you assumed it did. (i.e., poor planning), and you get up to reevaaluate your plan, then you not only enable the poor planner in you but you also reward the part of you that's looking out ot the corner of your eye in the setup phase.

I say punish the poor planner and don't reward the unfocussed setup.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
[...]
2. The graphs of stroke speed don't really communicate effectively to me. I'd rather see an actual stroke with your voiceover narrative. [...]
Click to expand...

Watch this short video with your head turned sideways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeYRkW8V7Vg

Imagine the mass on the spring is the tip going forward and back rythmically. The top curve is the position of the tip as a function of time. That is what I was plotting. A mass on a spring and a simple pendulum have mathematically the exact same position versus time curve as long as the amplitudes are small.

I fear the continuous motion I recommend on the last stroke is not easily distinguishable from a short pause after the backstroke just by watching the stroke itself. So I wanted to show the idea graphically.
 
Mike...Very informative and well thought out presentation. However, you're playing semantics about the pause at the end of the backswing. One of the major issues that your presentation fails to adequately address (imo), is how the transition happens. This is a critical stage in whether or not there will be a smooth changeover from the backswing to the forward stroke. One of the reasons for the pause, however slight or accented, is the transition from the tricep (which PULLS the cue backwards) to the bicep (which PULLS the cue forward). For a smooth transition, you must have a relaxed bicep, which the stop at the end of the backswing enables (even if it is VERY short). The pause is ALWAYS there, because the cue must change direction, and accelerate to the end of the natural finish, from zero velocity to whatever speed you're stroking with (with no elbow drop).

Again, words like 'soft', 'medium', and 'hard' (or slow, medium, fast) are subjective to the individual. It's necessary to quantify speed in a different way...which is why we use numbers. Our brains are already used to assimilating numerical scales and systems, on a daily basis, in our everyday behavior. They are also the same for everyone, regardless of ability. Even if the pause at the backswing is only a millisecond, it is still there. You simply cannot go backwards and forwards at the same time...it's opposite motion. Other than than that, an excellent sysnopsis. I agree with Randyg that you have the makings of a fine instructor. A P.E.P. workshop is hopefully in your future (which will also give you another reason why the pause is there, however short or long)!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Mike...Very informative and well thought out presentation. However, you're playing semantics about the pause at the end of the backswing. One of the major issues that your presentation fails to adequately address (imo), is how the transition happens. This is a critical stage in whether or not there will be a smooth changeover from the backswing to the forward stroke. One of the reasons for the pause, however slight or accented, is the transition from the tricep (which PULLS the cue backwards) to the bicep (which PULLS the cue forward). For a smooth transition, you must have a relaxed bicep, which the stop at the end of the backswing enables (even if it is VERY short). The pause is ALWAYS there, because the cue must change direction, and accelerate to the end of the natural finish, from zero velocity to whatever speed you're stroking with (with no elbow drop).
Click to expand...

Thanks Scott.

I view the slow backstroke as a segment of a continuous slow back and forth pendulum stroke. If you were not merely using this as a backstroke but instead were going back and forth (with this same slow stroke speed and with the cueball not there), then every time approaching the turning points at the back and the front you would be making the muscle transitions you describe. You would never have a pause. Sure the speed would go to zero at every turn, but the speed is constantly changing. So you are not actually still for any finite length of time.

A child on a swing may appear to pause at the turning points, but he or she doesn't actually pause. A pause would require extra forces that fight gravity.

The point I am trying to make is your turning point muscle transitions at the apex of the backswing should be the natural and consistent ones characteristic of the slow backstroke, not the variable ones characteristic of the variable speed forward stroke.


[...] Even if the pause at the backswing is only a millisecond, it is still there. You simply cannot go backwards and forwards at the same time...it's opposite motion.
Click to expand...

If you plot the position of the tip as a function of time, the difference between a short pause and no pause is hard to detect. But if you plot the velocity of the tip as a function of time the difference becomes apparent. It may seem like a semantic distinction, but I believe it's not.
 
I believe that my pause at the end of my back swing gives me a moment to employ conscious effort in the forward movement of shooting the shot. I like that and it makes the shot a more precise movement for me.
 
coopdeville said:
mike,
what do you propose the benefit is to not pausing
for a finite length of time?
-cOOp
sorry if I missed it
Click to expand...

I suggested four reasons on the video.

1. A pause requires two transitions to/from simple motions instead of one.

2. indeterminate length of time requires another decision on the part of the shooter--exactly when to pull the trigger

3. Going from the paused position to a forward motion compells some players to start with an ever-so-short back segment aka a hitch in the stroke.

4. a pause can mask a problematically quick backstroke

Again, I understand some players need some time in the vicinity of the back of the backstroke to change focus or whatever. I'm saying you can get that without the pause. Essentially you need to "turn the corner" ON your rythmic backstroke motion. You actually spend a fair amount of time in the vicinity of the all-the-way-back position.

If this is not enough time for you, try a slower basckstroke motion. This will give you more time.

I know there are many very successful players that have incorporated real pauses. I'm not suggesting anybody change what works. But what I'm suggesting is, I believe, the best way to teach a good stroke.
 
Nice video... you should invest in a pop-filter (or make one of your own)
 
I'm with you, Mike. No pause. Has Efren ever paused on his backstroke? I also train not to change my mind or even hesitate once I get down over the shot. Glad to see I am not totally alone.

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
I'm with you, Mike. No pause. Has Efren ever paused on his backstroke? I also train not to change my mind or even hesitate once I get down over the shot. Glad to see I am not totally alone.

unknownpro
Click to expand...


YES!....SPF=randyg
 
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