Pro One vs TOI

It is a parallel shift and not a lateral/to the side movement to effect TOI.
CJ said to move the butt bit and then move the tip a bit to TOI.
If the center axis butt moves exactly the bit as the center axis of the tip...then it is exactly parallel. Anything else would not be parallel and can be considered a lateral shift.

That said, a parallel shift is very difficult. There are other aiming methods that require a parallel shift like if the cue is aimed from the CP on the CB to the CP on the OB and then the cue is shifted parallel to that line to the center of the CB. Then that would be geometrically correct and the will be made.

If one keeps the butt hand stationary and the tip alone is shifted/pivoted to TOI, there will be a ~2 degree error...this may be in the noise of the stroke, and if one is consistent it could be a useful way to effect TOI.

:thumbup:
 
Damm I was shifting the en of the cue to the outside (like a BHE), well I will try that tomorrow and see how it works, thanks again English.

Eduardo
 
It is a parallel shift and not a lateral/to the side movement to effect TOI.
CJ said to move the butt bit and then move the tip a bit to TOI.
If the center axis butt moves exactly the bit as the center axis of the tip...then it is exactly parallel. Anything else would not be parallel and can be considered a lateral shift.

That said, a parallel shift is very difficult. There are other aiming methods that require a parallel shift like if the cue is aimed from the CP on the CB to the CP on the OB and then the cue is shifted parallel to that line to the center of the CB. Then that would be geometrically correct and the will be made.

If one keeps the butt hand stationary and the tip alone is shifted/pivoted to TOI, there will be a ~2 degree error...this may be in the noise of the stroke, and if one is consistent it could be a useful way to effect TOI.

:thumbup:

Thanks LAMas I will consider that.
 
It is a parallel shift and not a lateral/to the side movement to effect TOI.
CJ said to move the butt bit and then move the tip a bit to TOI.
If the center axis butt moves exactly the bit as the center axis of the tip...then it is exactly parallel. Anything else would not be parallel and can be considered a lateral shift.

That said, a parallel shift is very difficult. There are other aiming methods that require a parallel shift like if the cue is aimed from the CP on the CB to the CP on the OB and then the cue is shifted parallel to that line to the center of the CB. Then that would be geometrically correct and the will be made.

If one keeps the butt hand stationary and the tip alone is shifted/pivoted to TOI, there will be a ~2 degree error...this may be in the noise of the stroke, and if one is consistent it could be a useful way to effect TOI.

:thumbup:

Mas & bear7,

When I brought up 'lateral', I was referring to when CJ was trying to fix what he thought was my problem.

He said to pivot outside first & then move 'parallel' to the inside. He was trying to fix what he thought was me doing a pivot to the inside. I tried that suggestion but got the same inconsistent results because I was moving back to what I perceived & believe was parallel inside.

To correct what he perceived to be a pivot to the inside he wanted a minute pivot to the outside & I think a 'lateral' movement of that alignment to the inside but he said to move 'parallel' to the inside.

If the cue is aligned straight down the middle of the CB & then a lateral move to the inside is made the cue would be parallel to the straight down the middle alignment.

With a true 'parallel' inside placement one can not stroke straight through center as CJ has said several times but if the cue has a slight angle from the inside butt to the inside tip one can stroke through the 'center' of the ball.

Anyway it is this 'picture' for me that had me consistently pocketing balls & with much better cue ball position & the slight pivot to the outside just past center connects well & works fine for outside english.

The 'picture' is that the line of the cue nearest the center of the CB is 'parallel' but the line of the cue farthest from the center is angled in toward the center & the center line of the cue is in between the two(2).

Just my take.
 
If a TOI to the left of the CB causes the CB to deflect/squirt at a tiny angle to the right, then if the cue is aimed at the same point/distance to the left of the center of the OB...the OB can go straight or a bit to the right...this isn't desirable, but can be useful.

If a TOI to the left of the CB is aimed at the center of the OB, then the CB will squirt to the right of the center of the OB sending it a bit to the left...this is desirable and intended.

:thumbup:
 
If a TOI to the left of the CB is aimed at the center of the OB, then the CB will squirt to the right of the center of the OB sending it a bit to the left...this is desirable and intended.

:thumbup:

This is where I am more accurate but I don´t Know if it is right.
 
Mr Wiley told me that the alignment is doing above (before you down to the shot) and when you go down to the shot shift parallel from that position to the inside, but when I try this I never pointig the cue to OBC or OBE.
 
Mr Wiley told me that the alignment is doing above (before you down to the shot) and when you go down to the shot shift parallel from that position to the inside, but when I try this I never pointig the cue to OBC or OBE.

CJ says that TOI isn't an aiming system but a way to shoot more accurately. TOI means that you will never hit the CB past center to the outside (TOO).

With the variables like the shooter using a low or high deflection cue shaft, nickel or dime shaped tip and firmness of the stroke before applying TOI...one must find where to aim for himself.

To get close to the proper stance for the shot at hand, one may start at center to center for thick cuts, and for thin cuts on may start at center to edge.

One can alter the resulting cut angle by increasing the TOI that will increase the squirt that will increase the CB's angle/path to the OB and increasing the cut angle. Also one may have to aim at fractions of the OB to start instead of CTC or CTE and apply different "touch" distances away from the center of the CB to achieve different cut angles...all of the results must be memorized in order to recall what worked for a given shot..."I remember that visual/angle and this is what I did before that worked.

:thumbup:
 
Mr Wiley told me that the alignment is doing above (before you down to the shot) and when you go down to the shot shift parallel from that position to the inside, but when I try this I never pointig the cue to OBC or OBE.

It's very difficult to see the angle properly when you're already down on the shot...your depth perception can lie to you. Looking at the angle while standing erect over the shot is better.

The challenge one has with describing aiming, adjustment and alignment to someone on a forum is that it's unknown what level that person plays and how much they know/feel in their address of the CB...that's why CJ stresses that this system is mainly aimed at intermediate to advanced players--players that already know how to adjust for throw and squirt off their own established aiming method/site picture. If you're a beginner or have little experience and you have problems adjusting for various elements, then limiting those variables with TOI can be tough to explain or understand. There's a BIG difference between "aligning" CTE or CTC on the OB and "aiming" CTE/CTC. Not the same thing at all, and some people are getting confused between the two.

Most people tend to spin (TOO) shots, adjusting their aim to account for swerve away from the OB (and deflection toward the OB)...they get a touch for it, tending to aim thin, since the OB tends to throw thick into the rail...that's why missing thin (past the pocket) instead of thick (into the rail short of the pocket) is called the "pro side"...since pros, being better players, are less likely to be fooled by deflection into the OB (thick side) than amateurs.

Aiming and addressing the CB in conventional ways is heavily dependant upon the table conditions...dirty balls, wet conditions, worn cloth, etc. has an immediate effect, and regardless of your method, you have to adjust to the conditions. TOI anchors everything in one direction, so it's easier to adjust quickly, whereas you could spend an hour trying to figure out a table using the whole CB. An advance player that is used to spinning the CB can adjust quickly, if they shoot 6 hours per day...for most of us mortals that can't get on the green more than once/twice per week, it can be a challenge if not impossible.

If shifting parallel to the TOI after getting down on the shot is confusing you, take a step back and try this...just aim "thick" on the OB like you're trying to "slip it into" the near side of the pocket...then when you go down on the shot aim it with TOI (quarter tip or so)...DON'T use back hand english, your whole stick is shifted that quarter tip to the inside. Follow straight through on the shot with medium to quick speed (accelerating stroke, follow through should be about the same distance as your pull back). Regardless of your experience level, you will have a tendancy to want to steer or correct what you're doing, because it may look wrong to you, which can make this tough.

For most folks, it's easier to put just a little (half tip) of draw...so it's really quarter tip inside, half tip draw. Draw, follow or equator of CB isn't that relevant to making the shot, but it makes a huge difference in leave on the CB...but keeping it consistent while seeing how it fits your aiming system may help you. If you dive into the rail short, add another quarter tip of inside. Keep everything else the same. Once you hit the sweet spot (OB dead center pocket "thwock" sound and the CB isn't spinning after contact or especially after it hits a rail), you're in business. Start adusting with follow or draw and speed to see how you can control the CB. Shoot shots with greater distance between the CB and OB to see how much you might need to adjust your TOI to keep the OB in the center of the pocket (for me, this adjustment is so slight it's hard to describe; it's really a feel thing that the next three weeks of shooting with it will fix for you). The half ball hit angle is probably the easiest to learn off of, since you'll most easily see the affect of english on the shot...and it's repeatable to set up and try again.
 
If a TOI to the left of the CB causes the CB to deflect/squirt at a tiny angle to the right, then if the cue is aimed at the same point/distance to the left of the center of the OB...the OB can go straight or a bit to the right...this isn't desirable, but can be useful.

If a TOI to the left of the CB is aimed at the center of the OB, then the CB will squirt to the right of the center of the OB sending it a bit to the left...this is desirable and intended.

:thumbup:

It's all about getting what is intended.:thumbup:

Regards,
 
Mr Wiley told me that the alignment is doing above (before you down to the shot) and when you go down to the shot shift parallel from that position to the inside, but when I try this I never pointig the cue to OBC or OBE.

A true lateral, side ways shift to the inside will not result in the cue pointing to the alignment spots, center or edge, on the object ball. Remember it is less about 'aiming' & more about creating the connection of the two(2) balls that results in the correct angle to send the ball into the pocket.

CJ was concerned that I, as have others was not making a true paralell shift but pivoting instead. 'TOI' worked very well for me with what I perceived & believe was a true parallel shift of the cue to the 'touch' in side when I was using MY 'aim' to the full hit side of the pocket. The only thing that I was not fully happy with was the cue ball controll.

When I did the exact same thing but aligning just to the CTC & CTE lines My consistency of pocketing balls went way down.

That changed the other day with CJ's last suggestion that I move the butt to the inside first & then follow that by moving the tip to the inside. Doing it this way resulted in my pocketing consistency getting back to where it was & with much better CB control & the pivot back for outside english worked better as well.

We'll need to find that little thing that works for you.

Good Luck & don't give up. I know you know that it works.

Regards,
 
Last edited:
It's very difficult to see the angle properly when you're already down on the shot...your depth perception can lie to you. Looking at the angle while standing erect over the shot is better.

The challenge one has with describing aiming, adjustment and alignment to someone on a forum is that it's unknown what level that person plays and how much they know/feel in their address of the CB...that's why CJ stresses that this system is mainly aimed at intermediate to advanced players--players that already know how to adjust for throw and squirt off their own established aiming method/site picture. If you're a beginner or have little experience and you have problems adjusting for various elements, then limiting those variables with TOI can be tough to explain or understand. There's a BIG difference between "aligning" CTE or CTC on the OB and "aiming" CTE/CTC. Not the same thing at all, and some people are getting confused between the two.

Most people tend to spin (TOO) shots, adjusting their aim to account for swerve away from the OB (and deflection toward the OB)...they get a touch for it, tending to aim thin, since the OB tends to throw thick into the rail...that's why missing thin (past the pocket) instead of thick (into the rail short of the pocket) is called the "pro side"...since pros, being better players, are less likely to be fooled by deflection into the OB (thick side) than amateurs.

Aiming and addressing the CB in conventional ways is heavily dependant upon the table conditions...dirty balls, wet conditions, worn cloth, etc. has an immediate effect, and regardless of your method, you have to adjust to the conditions. TOI anchors everything in one direction, so it's easier to adjust quickly, whereas you could spend an hour trying to figure out a table using the whole CB. An advance player that is used to spinning the CB can adjust quickly, if they shoot 6 hours per day...for most of us mortals that can't get on the green more than once/twice per week, it can be a challenge if not impossible.

If shifting parallel to the TOI after getting down on the shot is confusing you, take a step back and try this...just aim "thick" on the OB like you're trying to "slip it into" the near side of the pocket...then when you go down on the shot aim it with TOI (quarter tip or so)...DON'T use back hand english, your whole stick is shifted that quarter tip to the inside. Follow straight through on the shot with medium to quick speed (accelerating stroke, follow through should be about the same distance as your pull back). Regardless of your experience level, you will have a tendancy to want to steer or correct what you're doing, because it may look wrong to you, which can make this tough.

For most folks, it's easier to put just a little (half tip) of draw...so it's really quarter tip inside, half tip draw. Draw, follow or equator of CB isn't that relevant to making the shot, but it makes a huge difference in leave on the CB...but keeping it consistent while seeing how it fits your aiming system may help you. If you dive into the rail short, add another quarter tip of inside. Keep everything else the same. Once you hit the sweet spot (OB dead center pocket "thwock" sound and the CB isn't spinning after contact or especially after it hits a rail), you're in business. Start adusting with follow or draw and speed to see how you can control the CB. Shoot shots with greater distance between the CB and OB to see how much you might need to adjust your TOI to keep the OB in the center of the pocket (for me, this adjustment is so slight it's hard to describe; it's really a feel thing that the next three weeks of shooting with it will fix for you). The half ball hit angle is probably the easiest to learn off of, since you'll most easily see the affect of english on the shot...and it's repeatable to set up and try again.

Mr west point you are right, I am not very experienced player, I have play the game about four or five years ago and I think I have a little experience with some adjustment, I really appreciate your thoughts and help I will keep practicing and posting my results.

Thanks again
Eduardo.
 
A true lateral, side ways shift to the inside will not result in the cue pointing to the alignment spots, center or edge, on the object ball. Remember it is less about 'aiming' & more about creating the connection of the two(2) balls that results in the coreect angle to send the ball into the pocket.

CJ was concerned that I, as have others was not making a true paralell shift but pivoting instead. 'TOI' worked very well for me with what I perceived & believe was a true parallel shift of the cue to the 'touch' in side when I was using MY 'aim' to the full hit side of the pocket. The only thing that I was not fully happy with was the cue ball controll.

When I did the exact same thing but aligning just to the CTC & CTE lines My consistency of posketing balls went way down.

That changed the other day with CJ's last suggestion that I move the butt the the inside first & then follow that by moving the tip to the inside. Doing it this way resulted in my pocketing consistency getting back to where it was & with much better CB control & the pivot back for outside english worked better as well.

We'll need to find that little thig that works for you.

Good Luck & don't give up. I know you know that it works.

Regards,

:thumbup: Thank you English we will find that thing for sure. Just don´t give up. :grin:
 
Here is something simple for you TOI guys to try. Use the center to edge alignment for any and all shots and forget about the center to center alignment and you will be GTG! Dont get caught up in whether there is aiming or not with TOI because it is impossible to not aim using just one line as described by cj.
 
Here is something simple for you TOI guys to try. Use the center to edge alignment for any and all shots and forget about the center to center alignment and you will be GTG! Dont get caught up in whether there is aiming or not with TOI because it is impossible to not aim using just one line as described by cj.

Would you care to rephrase that or elaborate?
 
Today a I traded my Predator low deflection shaft 314/2 (12.75 mm) to a Z2 shaft (11.75). I saw that CJ recommends a smaller diameter tip, he is playing with a 11.4 mm tip if I remember correctly.

My question is:
Could the TOI be effective with a low deflection shaft, considering that TOI is using the deflection to send cueball into object ball and throw it in pocket? Did I made a mistake to switch to a shaft with smaller diameter,and a lower deflection, considering that I want to master the TOI?

Thank you.
 
....with what i am reading about the aiming systems and if i have to acquire one in the future....i will probably go with TOI...i think its more of a feel thing...nothing like ABC to keep an eye on...it maybe as close to natural if i am right about it....more reading about them anyways....





//
 
make it apparent that you are creating more angle.

Today a I traded my Predator low deflection shaft 314/2 (12.75 mm) to a Z2 shaft (11.75). I saw that CJ recommends a smaller diameter tip, he is playing with a 11.4 mm tip if I remember correctly.

My question is:
Could the TOI be effective with a low deflection shaft, considering that TOI is using the deflection to send cueball into object ball and throw it in pocket? Did I made a mistake to switch to a shaft with smaller diameter,and a lower deflection, considering that I want to master the TOI?

Thank you.

I think you'll be fine. Remember when you cue the ball to the TOI position it also created s visual angle as well. I've mentioned this a time or two and it seems to go unnoticed. It's not "all" deflection and you should clearly "real eyes" that if you set up some shots and cue it to the inside. It will shift your visual sight line over which will make it apparent that you are creating more angle.

I have a Bludworth cue that deflects very, very little and I play flawlessly with it, I just rarely used it these days because I've wore the shaft down so far (10.5mm).

Play Well.
 
Just my 2 cents worth. If you are playing an intentional deflection, then I would think that a low deflection shaft would be more accurate.
 
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