I played today 5 hours with Z2 shaft and TOI system. And I want to say that I like how that shaft plays. You don't have to put much power in your stroke.
Pro One vs TOI
- Thread starter Gerry Williams
- Start date
the angle is created by more than just deflection
Your statement makes a lot of sense. The most important thing about pool is hitting the cue ball precisely, no matter what system/technique you use.
This becomes obvious when using the Touch of Inside system because you are controlling deflection and making it an advantage, rather than avoiding deflection (which is not possible) and treating it as a disadvantage (which it will be because of lack of proficiency).
The Low Deflection shafts should be very accurate when using TOI and would be a positive influence. When cuing the inside of the cue ball the angle is created by more than just deflection, it's also because of a visual shift. The more you cue inside, the more of an angle you will create, this is obvious with some experimentation and personal experience.
'The Game is the Teacher'
Your statement makes a lot of sense. The most important thing about pool is hitting the cue ball precisely, no matter what system/technique you use.
This becomes obvious when using the Touch of Inside system because you are controlling deflection and making it an advantage, rather than avoiding deflection (which is not possible) and treating it as a disadvantage (which it will be because of lack of proficiency).
The Low Deflection shafts should be very accurate when using TOI and would be a positive influence. When cuing the inside of the cue ball the angle is created by more than just deflection, it's also because of a visual shift. The more you cue inside, the more of an angle you will create, this is obvious with some experimentation and personal experience.
'The Game is the Teacher'
This may not sound like a big "tip," however for some players it makes a huge.......
Your vision, when down on the cue ball is directly aligned to the center of the tip and the spot you're hitting on the cue ball (ideally). When you shift to the inside of the cue ball {TOI} with your tip, you also allow your eyes to shift slightly as well to stay aligned to the center of the tip. Some players use the inside of the shaft to do this and it's a personal choice as far as I'm concerned. The important thing is to visually be aligned to a specific point.
I find it VERY useful to connect my eyes and tip together for an instant BEFORE getting down on the cueball/shot then you are just re establishing your eye/tip connection, rather then doing it for the first time (after you're down on the shot). This may not sound like a big "tip," however for some players it makes a huge difference. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Your vision, when down on the cue ball is directly aligned to the center of the tip and the spot you're hitting on the cue ball (ideally). When you shift to the inside of the cue ball {TOI} with your tip, you also allow your eyes to shift slightly as well to stay aligned to the center of the tip. Some players use the inside of the shaft to do this and it's a personal choice as far as I'm concerned. The important thing is to visually be aligned to a specific point.
I find it VERY useful to connect my eyes and tip together for an instant BEFORE getting down on the cueball/shot then you are just re establishing your eye/tip connection, rather then doing it for the first time (after you're down on the shot). This may not sound like a big "tip," however for some players it makes a huge difference. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Imo very important and useful "big tip"
How stan shuffett likes to say:
"Your eyes lead and the body will follow"
This is imo absolutley necessary. Will also strengthen your confidence and should be burned in into everybody s psr.
Have a smooth stroke
Ingo
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2
Well, Pro One has been working better for me, I´m not saying TOI does not work, but I think it´s more about feel and I´m not an experienced player in fact I consider my self as a rookie and perhaps that is why it is not working as I´d wish. With Pro one I feel more confidence when I go down to the shot, I am still missing shots of course but I am more consistent with it I will keep practicing and tell you my advance.
Thank you and sorry for my english.
Eduardo.
Thank you and sorry for my english.
Eduardo.
levels are broken through sometimes, by just "stirring" the fire
We're developing some effective ways to create this connection through specialized drills. I just figured out something that had been missing in my own game and I'm not sure how it happened.
I trained a player this weekend for 12 hours and went through some very specific basic training and somehow picked it up vicariously. That's how levels are broken through sometimes, by just "stirring" the fire (like in a fireplace, sometimes it blazes without adding anything but a stir). 'The Game {really is} the Teacher'
We're developing some effective ways to create this connection through specialized drills. I just figured out something that had been missing in my own game and I'm not sure how it happened.
I trained a player this weekend for 12 hours and went through some very specific basic training and somehow picked it up vicariously. That's how levels are broken through sometimes, by just "stirring" the fire (like in a fireplace, sometimes it blazes without adding anything but a stir). 'The Game {really is} the Teacher'
On that topic, I have played more pool in the past 3-4 weeks since I been in Germany than I have since last summer and just the other night did I start to hit the CB where I intended to. and SURPRISE the pockets got real big all of a sudden, the CB was going where i wanted it to, if i had a gap i needed to go between i was going right between it.
It just clicked, felt nice.
practice practice practice
hope your well buddy,
ill ring your phone in a week or so,
best
eric:smile::smile:
Under pressure it's essential to know how the cue ball is reacting
That's great, Eric, once you are hitting the cue ball precisely you can move on to any of the advanced techniques.
Until I started teaching TOI I didn't "Real Eyes" how few players are actually hitting the cue ball where they think they are. When someone is trying to hit center and not hitting it precisely they can't tell......and they will never be able to tell. The only indication is missing shots that they can't believe they miss, especially under pressure.
Under pressure it's essential to know how the cue ball is reacting and therefore it's best to favor one side of the cue ball.....or the other.
Play Well FatBoy....the game is your teacher......CJ
That's great, Eric, once you are hitting the cue ball precisely you can move on to any of the advanced techniques.
Until I started teaching TOI I didn't "Real Eyes" how few players are actually hitting the cue ball where they think they are. When someone is trying to hit center and not hitting it precisely they can't tell......and they will never be able to tell. The only indication is missing shots that they can't believe they miss, especially under pressure.
Under pressure it's essential to know how the cue ball is reacting and therefore it's best to favor one side of the cue ball.....or the other.
Play Well FatBoy....the game is your teacher......CJ
wow I just got done watching CJ Wiley of TOI. He make it so simple and easy. I started doing it at pool hall and I tell you what.......when I was aiming center to center then just a half a tip to right......the ball went right into pocket. it amaze me cause before I shot it it look like it wrong but like CJ Wiley say.....it going to slightly move the cue ball at the exact point. I am amaze and would consider TOI instead of Pro 1. Thanks to CJ Wiley for making a video that is so understandable and really go into detail to detail cause other instructor they says this and that but they leave out the middle part and that what make so confusing to local players who wanna be at advance level or higher. No, CJ Wiley went all the way through step by step and actually made it understandable and in your mind know what he saying and picturing to understand it and do it when practicing. Again Thanks to CJ Wiley you did a wonderful job on the video..
footwork is the key, and pool is no exception to achieving mastery.
You're welcome, I've been teaching this TOI Technique a lot since the DVD and finding better and better ways to communicate it. The system is very simple, what's challenging is how to shift to the TOI Position and after that coming straight down to the TOI Position automatically. The other factor that makes TOI and advanced system is the it requires your basics to be sound so you can hit the cue ball accurately.
The most important thing in the shift is to do it with your back hand, it's like if you laid your cue on the table with the tip on the head spot and rolled the cue to the right on the table. When you start the roll with at the butt with your hand the cue rolls with the butt slightly leading.
This is the same way the parallel shift is done, it seems parallel, however, the butt slightly leads so if you roll your cue on the table you notice the further the cue rolls the more obvious it is the the cue's butt end is leading and it becomes apparent that its' not parallel.
When moving the cue an eighth of a tip it's not apparent, so it must be initiated with the back hand to feel and I recommend doing this starting with a weight shift at your FEET. It's the footwork that allows these minute shifts to be as accurate as possible. At the highest levels of most sports the footwork is the key, and pool is no exception to achieving mastery.
'The Game is the Teacher'.com
You're welcome, I've been teaching this TOI Technique a lot since the DVD and finding better and better ways to communicate it. The system is very simple, what's challenging is how to shift to the TOI Position and after that coming straight down to the TOI Position automatically. The other factor that makes TOI and advanced system is the it requires your basics to be sound so you can hit the cue ball accurately.
The most important thing in the shift is to do it with your back hand, it's like if you laid your cue on the table with the tip on the head spot and rolled the cue to the right on the table. When you start the roll with at the butt with your hand the cue rolls with the butt slightly leading.
This is the same way the parallel shift is done, it seems parallel, however, the butt slightly leads so if you roll your cue on the table you notice the further the cue rolls the more obvious it is the the cue's butt end is leading and it becomes apparent that its' not parallel.
When moving the cue an eighth of a tip it's not apparent, so it must be initiated with the back hand to feel and I recommend doing this starting with a weight shift at your FEET. It's the footwork that allows these minute shifts to be as accurate as possible. At the highest levels of most sports the footwork is the key, and pool is no exception to achieving mastery.
'The Game is the Teacher'.com
I've given up on pro one/cte system. I've been trying it for month and half. I feel that this system is a feel system. 50% it put me in the right spot after I got Center to edge then I get down....so other 50% is adjustment......so I don't wanna do manual this and that. I just wanna see the ball and just shoot it.....way I aim is simple and easy. Im only up to learn new thing.......way I aim base on shane vanboening work well and TOI pretty good and still working on TOI cause I've made some shot using it but still gotta work on it.....with stan system I am not making no balls......NONE!!! then I thought to myself wait....so i get down after center to edge dial down then went and then saw need adjustment....shoot it then it went in....so i am thinking okay that too much. I am sticking with way I aim and TOI.
How much table time in the month and a half with pro one?
demonstrating Banking really drives home how the angles are created with your TIP
Thanks, in the new TIP Banking Video I devote a complete chapter to how the pivot and parallel shift is done. This will really compliment the TOI Technique you are using and demonstrating Banking really drives home how the angles are created with your TIP and TOI.
Thanks, in the new TIP Banking Video I devote a complete chapter to how the pivot and parallel shift is done. This will really compliment the TOI Technique you are using and demonstrating Banking really drives home how the angles are created with your TIP and TOI.
I've been reading up on this TOI aiming as a good player I know uses it for long, near straight-in shots. So that got me interested. I haven't bought the DVD yet, so in the meantime have been reading whatever I can find in the forum. This idea of TOI-1 and TOI-2 keeps coming up and I wonder if someone can clue me in on the bold section above.
I understand the idea of lining up CTC or CTE and creating the angle with a parallel inside hit. I don't understand what it means on the one hand to line up CTC but then on the other hand "aim for" (for lack of a better term) the fat side (or inside) of the pocket. All I'm thinking right now is aim CTC, throw some inside parallel on the cue ball and adjust the amount of inside as necessary to split the pocket. Where does "aiming" for the inside of the pocket come in?
Also, what is the purpose of TOI-1 if you have to aim for the inside of the pocket conventionally, only to throw it a little over to center with a little inside? Why not just aim for the center without TOI instead of aiming fat with TOI.
I realize I may be asking things that are covered in the DVD.
Thanks.
I've been reading up on this TOI aiming as a good player I know uses it for long, near straight-in shots. So that got me interested. I haven't bought the DVD yet, so in the meantime have been reading whatever I can find in the forum. This idea of TOI-1 and TOI-2 keeps coming up and I wonder if someone can clue me in on the bold section above.
I understand the idea of lining up CTC or CTE and creating the angle with a parallel inside hit. I don't understand what it means on the one hand to line up CTC but then on the other hand "aim for" (for lack of a better term) the fat side (or inside) of the pocket. All I'm thinking right now is aim CTC, throw some inside parallel on the cue ball and adjust the amount of inside as necessary to split the pocket. Where does "aiming" for the inside of the pocket come in?
Also, what is the purpose of TOI-1 if you have to aim for the inside of the pocket conventionally, only to throw it a little over to center with a little inside? Why not just aim for the center without TOI instead of aiming fat with TOI.
I realize I may be asking things that are covered in the DVD.
Thanks.
Hi Dan,
I'll give it a try.
CJ does not really like TOI 1 & 2 but he did sort of give two explantions.
TOI 1 was before he told us about the CTC & CTE alignments. The explanation was to 'aim' to the full hit side of the pocket & then move the tip the 'touch of inside' to make the CB squirt out & add cut to the shot so that the OB goes into the center of the pocket.
If you hit the center of the cb by mistake the ball goes into the full hit side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball more than intended to the inside then the ball goes into the thin cut side of the pocket. This is the 3 part pocket system. It gives you a margin of error at the cue ball.
Later on CJ told about the CTC & CTE alignment. He still uses the 3 part system but I think it is more about acelleration calibration in that if he does not accelerate properly the ball will goes into the full hit side & if he over does it the ball will go into the thin hit side & when it's right the ball goes into the center of the pocket.
When I first stepped up to the CTC & CTE system I was having trouble with the CTE shot as I was not getting enough cut on some shots. CJ question if I was truely parallel & suggested moving the butt first & then the tip just the touch. It worked.
I hope something in there helps.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Thanks very much, Rick. The more I keep reading this thread the longer it seems to get!
Let me comment about the bold section above first -- As far as margin for error, couldn't I say the same thing as follows: Aim for the center of the pocket with no english. If I accidentally hit outside english the ball will go in the fat side of the pocket. If I accidentally hit a little inside, it will go to the thin side. I don't see any difference between this and your description of the margin for error.
I'm still confused about the CTC stuff. Originally, and on CJ's 15 ball rotation video (which is terrific), it appears that we are supposed to get down on the shot with the cue lined up CTC AND aiming at the object ball center, and then (or as you get down) shift parallel to create the angle with squirt. But now it seems like we're supposed to just aim for the fat side of the pocket and then use a little inside. Which is it, or is it somehow both? I saw CJ's explanation on page 7 I think, but it unfortunately isn't very clear.
It piqued my interest because here's how I aim: I start out looking at every shot standing up eyeing the CTC lineup. (I never look at a CTE lineup.) As I get down on the shot I move into the position necessary to pocket the ball. I'm not sure why I do that and maybe I don't need to, but maybe it helps me feel the correct angle. I've played long enough that I don't aim anything - I just know the right angle to get down on. The trick is to execute the stroke properly at any speed needed. Anyway, I saw CJ mention something that seemed vaguely similar, but I don't know.
You eye the shot from standing up as CTC/CTE but get down on the shot in the angle necessary to hit it fat, and then use inside?
Dan,
You said a mouth full there & I'm not sure I understand it all.
But... I think you are mixing up what I perceive as TOI 1 from TOI 2. You are combining them & that makes no real sense to me as far as 'aiming' or alignment.
TOI 1 is sort of for how anyone aims with their system with no english, a center CB alignment. It explains the 3 part pocket system.
TOI 2 is not for how anyone aims with their system, & remember CJ does not 'aim'. He aligns CTC or CTE & then hits off of those alignments with the TOI tip placement to 'create' the cut angle with differing amounts of CB squirt. You may be confusing them because I think CJ said somewhere that he comes down right on the TOI location that he has chosen to create the angle. Would that be 1/2 tip inside or 2 tips inside?
Keep in mind that TOI is not an aiming system. It is a method of play. It is a dynamic system IMO. Could I ever explain exactly how to aim for a parallel english shot hit at 1:30 or 4:30? The answer is no. I could give you an idea but one has to feel that by feeling the reaction that the cue ball takes from that hit with the speed that they hit the shot. Each speed of hit will effect the combination of squirt, spin, forward momentum, & swerve.
So, in my opinion it's aim your way(TOI-1) or align CTC or CTE (TOI-CJ)
As to your question about aiming at the center of the pocket & mishitting with either inside or outside english as a margin of error, I'd say try it & see what success you have. If the mishit is purely a result of back hand english & your bridge length matches that of the shafts pivot point you might make some. But what if your aim is off a bit to the same side as the english throw. IMO with TOI you can even be off with your aim & still make the ball as long as you do not completely cross over to the thin hit side with your aim & still add cut with the squirt.
Am I saying that you can't mis with TOI? NO, I am not saying that. But I would rather shoot with a plan for a mis in one direction so to speak than not know what will happen if I mishit.
Now if CTE/Pro1 is as good as it appears to be then I might change my mind. I'm waiting for the new DVD to see.
Again I hope something in there helps. If not maybe we need to take one issue at a time.
Regards & Best Wishes.
Rick
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answers are in my opinion above in bold and that does not mean they are correct
I think you're wrong on two things I noticed. Hopefully CJ can clarify.
1. You would aim at the nearest point of the pocket. Aiming to the furthest point as you suggested would overcut the ball. You want to undercut it so the TOI can deflect towards center pocket.
2. I believe you do have to parallel shift. BHE won't get you the correct alignment.
There's a chance I'm actually wrong, but I'm going off what I remember.
if you're willing to believe that you can learn this technique.......
You can "aim" at the center and error the same either way, that's possible IF you could really "aim" at the center of the pocket every time. The trouble is we can't see the target of the object all AND the center of the pocket at the same time. I've found that I can't "feel" the center as well as I can feel the inside. When I align to undercut the object ball I can then accelerate with TOI and over cut the shot into the center. If it doesn't over cut enough I'll hit the inside of the pocket and if it goes too far I can hit the outside of the pocket.
What's not obvious when watching the champion players is their ability to "cheat" the pocket, this is made possible by developing the ability to hit BOTH SIDES equally well, with shot speed, rather than changing "aiming points".
This is the foundation of the "Three Part Pocket System".
Forcing the cue ball slightly off line actually allows you to pocket balls and move the cue ball better.
This is some top secret advise and 20 years ago I would not have shared this. I'm ok with anyone not believing what I'm communicating, however when you're willing to believe you will learn this technique TOI will speed up the process in just 3 hours...this I will assure you. 'The Game will be your Teacher'
'The Game is the Teacher'
I've been reading up on this TOI aiming as a good player I know uses it for long, near straight-in shots. So that got me interested. I haven't bought the DVD yet, so in the meantime have been reading whatever I can find in the forum. This idea of TOI-1 and TOI-2 keeps coming up and I wonder if someone can clue me in on the bold section above.
I understand the idea of lining up CTC or CTE and creating the angle with a parallel inside hit. I don't understand what it means on the one hand to line up CTC but then on the other hand "aim for" (for lack of a better term) the fat side (or inside) of the pocket. All I'm thinking right now is aim CTC, throw some inside parallel on the cue ball and adjust the amount of inside as necessary to split the pocket. Where does "aiming" for the inside of the pocket come in?
Also, what is the purpose of TOI-1 if you have to aim for the inside of the pocket conventionally, only to throw it a little over to center with a little inside? Why not just aim for the center without TOI instead of aiming fat with TOI.
I realize I may be asking things that are covered in the DVD.
Thanks.
You can "aim" at the center and error the same either way, that's possible IF you could really "aim" at the center of the pocket every time. The trouble is we can't see the target of the object all AND the center of the pocket at the same time. I've found that I can't "feel" the center as well as I can feel the inside. When I align to undercut the object ball I can then accelerate with TOI and over cut the shot into the center. If it doesn't over cut enough I'll hit the inside of the pocket and if it goes too far I can hit the outside of the pocket.
What's not obvious when watching the champion players is their ability to "cheat" the pocket, this is made possible by developing the ability to hit BOTH SIDES equally well, with shot speed, rather than changing "aiming points".
This is the foundation of the "Three Part Pocket System".
Forcing the cue ball slightly off line actually allows you to pocket balls and move the cue ball better.
This is some top secret advise and 20 years ago I would not have shared this. I'm ok with anyone not believing what I'm communicating, however when you're willing to believe you will learn this technique TOI will speed up the process in just 3 hours...this I will assure you. 'The Game will be your Teacher'
'The Game is the Teacher'
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