Pro Pool players courting disaster

[ronscuba]

Curious how much the general pool player cares about professional pool and how important professional pool is to the pool industry as a whole ?

I think the pro's need the amateurs, the leagues and hobbyists to pump dollars into the pool industry, but how much does the industry really need the pros ?

 

[CJ Wiley]

this would happen if pool got too successful.

Here :

http://www.worldgolf.com/wglibrary/history/chpgatr.html

This is a reasonable discussion of the real start of the "PGA". I believe that you are actually refering to the "PGA Tour", which is a bit different than the "PGA of America". As you can see the PGA and the PGA Tour started well before the three players you mention entered their first professional tournament. The key dates are 1916 and 1934.

Having said that the current professional pool scene does appear similar to the state of golf in the 1920s and 1930s .... a bunch of independant tournaments that good players entered if they could get there and pay the entry fee.

Dave

You're correct, Dave, I should have said "the PGA as we know it today".....the pro gofers ate bologna sandwiches and lived out of their car tournament to tournament for many years before "The King" and "The Golden Bear" came on the scene....however, they were the pioneers of the New Age of Golf which was fueled by TV...and all sports are fueled by TV.

The Pros for all sports drive their industry, they are used to showcase the game, real estate, merchandising, etc. The merchandising in many sports is generating billions of dollars a year.....this billiard industry is small and for the most part it's in the leaders to keep it small because this keeps publicly traded companies from coming in and taking over (the Wal Marts of the world).....and this would happen if pool became successful and had a consistent TV presence with quality production and character development.

 

[JCIN]

DISCLAIMER: I didn't read the whole thread, but I have a good guess of what's been talked about.

JCIN from TAR has come right out and said he doesn't put on TAR events to get paid.

No thats wrong. I make my living with TAR. If I didnt make money at it I would of quit long ago. Its not a good living by any means but its something I built and I'm not going to give up on it easy. Almost every decision I make with TAR is driven by money because if something doesnt make money it means TAR dies.

There is a difference between making money and making profit. One I have gotten fairly good at the other is an ongoing struggle but one that is always front and center. If everyone involved with TAR from the crew to the players doesnt make money then nothing happens.

 

[JCIN]

Nevermind..

 

[DaveK]

The Pros for all sports drive their industry, ....

Rodman Wanamaker was not a pro, rather he was a patron and a very fine businessman. If pool had a similar patron that the pros cooperated with pool might (a big "might" imo) have a chance. And to this day the PGA Tour is managed by professional managers :

http://www.pgatour.com/company/executive_bios.html

Yes it is a players organisation but they have the wisdom to hire business pros to run the tour business. It is a model that works, and I hope that some day the pool world will follow suit.

Dave

 

[jay helfert]

It's no "Fairy Tale," anyone can ask Sam Snead who won more golf tournaments than anyone in more decades - his total prize money earned was around $750,000 .... and that's lifetime of 6 decades. Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan took over 20 years to make a million dollars. They had to gamble and give lessons to support their families.

TV is the Key. Why have tournaments with 128 Pros where 80% of them starve when you could have a televised tournament with 8 players, and pay them all $5,000 or more. This is the model that Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player used and it worked. This is also the model that 100% of businesses use and pool is the only exception.

Name ONE business that survived years by only paying 20% of their staff......with NO BENEFITS at all for the other 80%.

Pool is the only exception, isn't it about time to "real eyes" this everyone???

It's great to be "Exceptional", but not in this case.

I couldn't free up the time to join the Bonus Ball Team, however, I am rooting for them to succeed. Pro Pool players are starving trying to keep the game alive, and it's not a pretty sight. I have compassion for their situation because I've been there and done that.....in a much better time and it was still very challenging to be successful.

I think we all have some important things to learn, and......'The Game is the Teacher'

Thank you CJ for your contributions to this forum. I, for one, would like to see you out there competing again. You're older and wiser, actually a prime age to be successful as a player. And it's not a matter of money for you, we both know that. I'm hoping to see you in Tunica wearing your battle gear! :wink:
I have extended you an invitation to play in the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge. You would be a welcome addition to the field. Dust off that stroke and come and get after it. You always were among the fiercest competitors out there. Don't wait until you're too old, like Sigel did. I know you're itching to play. What better opportunity then next month in Tunica? You are and always will be a pool player, so don't forget that. Life is the teacher!

Over and out! :grin:

 

[JCIN]

this billiard industry is small and for the most part it's in the leaders to keep it small because this keeps publicly traded companies from coming in and taking over (the Wal Marts of the world).....and this would happen if pool became successful and had a consistent TV presence with quality production and character development.

Every time I almost start to take you seriously you just take a wild left and zoom off into outer space.

 

[Fatboy]

Thank you CJ for your contributions to this forum. I, for one, would like to see you out there competing again. You're older and wiser, actually a prime age to be successful as a player. And it's not a matter of money for you, we both know that. I'm hoping to see you in Tunica wearing your battle gear! :wink:
I have extended you an invitation to play in the Bigfoot Ten Ball Challenge. You would be a welcome addition to the field. Dust off that stroke and come and get after it. You always were among the fiercest competitors out there. Don't wait until you're too old, like Sigel did. I know you're itching to play. What better opportunity then next month in Tunica? You are and always will be a pool player, so don't forget that. Life is the teacher!

Over and out! :grin:

i agree CJ is great for pool, has been for many years. Life is the teacher! that too!!!

 

[Fatboy]

I. I have compassion for their situation because I've been there and done that..'

So do I, i'm well aware of how brutal it is, and am lucky not to have to fade what they do to survive. Most people dont get that. JCIN and Jay do for sure, no question about that.

 

[lukemindish]

CJ, thanks for the history lesson and the nice fairy tale about the PGA. There had been a PGA tour for more than thirty years before Palmer, Nicklaus and Player became top dogs. Maybe you never heard of Snead, Hogan, Nelson and Demaret. There were typically 60-75 players who played in these events during the 30's and 40's. The fields began to grow larger in the 50's. The early PGA tour had relatively small purses, with the winner often getting around $2,000 or $2,500. That was pretty decent money at the time, but it was a real struggle to stay out there. The players hung in there and eventually it blossomed into what we have today.

I still feel the best bet for the success of professional pool is a legitimate pro tour, utilizing a game that showcases the skills of the best players, i.e. Ten Ball on a ten foot table. I think BB will go the way of Seven Ball, a long forgotten "new" game. A true pro tour with substantial prize money would allow more players to make a living from the game. But the nature of individual pro sports (golf, tennis, pool etc.) is that only the best players make the most money. Even in the stratospheric world of pro golf, there are many thousands of grinders trying hard to make ends meet, while they flail away at their dream.

Pro pool is really not that different, with a handful of top players (who travel the world) making most of the money. Even in today's economy the 40K Lee Van just won in China is not chopped liver. So someone is getting the money, it just isn't you anymore. Someone will win 28K in the Ultimate Ten Ball, someone will win 20K in the Bigfoot Challenge, someone will win five figures in the Bank Pool, One Pocket and 9-Ball divisions at the Southern Classic. That's a certainty!

And there will be other substantial prizes for the players who finish high. Yes pro pool is a tough grind, but there is still money to be made if you're good enough. Just ask Shane about that. Most of the top pros also get financial support through endorsement deals. No, it's not big money, but it helps pay the bills. My point being that even in this low ebb in our sport, there is money to be made for the elite players. That is something to shoot for if you're serious about being a pro.

P.S. I promise you that after Bonus Ball has been around a few years and all these guys are getting paid decent money, I will gladly eat my words. Look, if you want to do something good for pool, put on a 50K added event in Dallas. If a dozen guys like you, who have the money, put on a similar event in their home city, there would be a pro tour. TV and sponsorship well could follow if they had something worthwhile to put on the air. ESPN has always asked for a tour, not a single event. I am quite willing to put on a 50K added tournament in Los Angeles if I see something happening like this.

And this is why the Southern Classic is so big for pool right now. Like you said if there is another big turn out. This could turn into a pro tour with 4 major spots in 4 major casinos. And with that, sponsors will come. And I feel the problem with BB is the scheduling and stepping on these events toes. Pool needs to work together to make a change. I really feel that Greg Sullivan can turn pool in the right way. But for that to happen he needs a big turnout our tunica. BB should really try and work with everyone instead of against everyone.

 

[JB Cases]

Again I don't understand why the owner of Bonus Ball doesn't INVADE Tunica by paying all his players entries, renting a bus making a cross-country tour there and back promoting the game and be in harmony with the existing promoters. Poker has a ton of games that people play why not pool?

As for players shooting themselves in the foot well they can't see the future any more than anyone else can and they probably signed actual contracts to be at Bonus Ball. But I thought that BB had left it free for the players to go? Where I personally think that they are shooting themselves in the foot though is the absolute and total lack of promotion of Bonus Ball BY the players these past 8 months or so. Not one time have I seen a Bonus Ball player playing it or talking about it out in the real world. Not to say that they haven't but no one else is reporting it either.

I mean let's all be honest if a pro showed up in the pool room and said let's play some Bonus Ball then lots of people would be willing to try it and it would be fun. I don't understand the seeming reluctance to do grassroots guerrilla marketing here.

I do sincerely hope that the players don't skip Tunica if they are able to go. Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin are really two men who have kept pro pool alive this past decade. They deserve to be in the hall of fame, but more than that they deserve the support of the pro ranks.

 

[sunnyone]

As the gentlemen said ...

It's no good asking us to pick up the pieces ex post facto if we haven't been informed a priori, is it?

Helpfulness is my life,

Sunny

P. S. Those who don’t remember history are often poor at math!

 

[Banks]

Those who don’t remember history are often poor at math!

I've got a memory like a steel strap.. that's rusted open.

But I love me some math!

Crunching numbers is my life.

 

[bdorman]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley:
this billiard industry is small and for the most part it's in the leaders to keep it small because this keeps publicly traded companies from coming in and taking over (the Wal Marts of the world).....and this would happen if pool became successful and had a consistent TV presence with quality production and character development.

Every time I almost start to take you seriously you just take a wild left and zoom off into outer space.

If major sponsors and TV get into pool, there will be significant changes...and not all of them will be good. Sure, there will be more money for the pros; as long as they are willing to stop shooting in the middle of a hill-hill rack for a commercial break. As long as they can survive the lies and false confrontations made up by sportswriters. And so on.

And "Goodbye" to all the independent promoters/operators. Sponsors and TV will not work with small-time operators; they'll take over every aspect of production/promotion (yes, there will be a Players Association, but it will dance to the sponsor's tune; it will have no choice) because they have to in order to make it work. They're not going to allow some independent to screw up their investment.

The Barry Bermans of the world will be offered seemingly great contracts that pay a little ($200,000) now, but millions later. But they'll get squeezed out long before "later" ever arrives. The Barrys will be replaced by a suit who doesn't know the business end of a cue stick...but he knows the sponsors and the network politics.

There will be more money for the players, but it won't be free. And there will be lots of losers among the current industry.

 

[Fatboy]

Again I don't understand why the owner of Bonus Ball doesn't INVADE Tunica by paying all his players entries, renting a bus making a cross-country tour there and back promoting the game and be in harmony with the existing promoters. Poker has a ton of games that people play why not pool?

As for players shooting themselves in the foot well they can't see the future any more than anyone else can and they probably signed actual contracts to be at Bonus Ball. But I thought that BB had left it free for the players to go? Where I personally think that they are shooting themselves in the foot though is the absolute and total lack of promotion of Bonus Ball BY the players these past 8 months or so. Not one time have I seen a Bonus Ball player playing it or talking about it out in the real world. Not to say that they haven't but no one else is reporting it either.

I mean let's all be honest if a pro showed up in the pool room and said let's play some Bonus Ball then lots of people would be willing to try it and it would be fun. I don't understand the seeming reluctance to do grassroots guerrilla marketing here.

I do sincerely hope that the players don't skip Tunica if they are able to go. Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin are really two men who have kept pro pool alive this past decade. They deserve to be in the hall of fame, but more than that they deserve the support of the pro ranks.

Yeah he should post up their entry $$$ in Tunica as a jester of good faith for all the costs they incurred with the false starts. Ralf bought plane tix more than once...

I also think that 50 people missing from Tunica isnt going to have a huge impact on the sucess of the event-NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY PLAY, sorry they just dont carry that much weight against the number of people who will be there. It could be siad there will be less bangers cause there will be less champion's. I dont buy that, and Greg has the juice, players or not to move on to more venues when he is ready and pool is ready-I have had that conversation with him many times(I'm a Greg supporter-mite not sound like it now, but i am) and if i'm wrong correct me. I just feel Greg has more going for him than BB can do him harm. I give him that credit for his hard work, sure the players matter, I just think not as much as has been blown up here.

 

[Fatboy]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley:
this billiard industry is small and for the most part it's in the leaders to keep it small because this keeps publicly traded companies from coming in and taking over (the Wal Marts of the world).....and this would happen if pool became successful and had a consistent TV presence with quality production and character development.




If major sponsors and TV get into pool, there will be significant changes...and not all of them will be good. Sure, there will be more money for the pros; as long as they are willing to stop shooting in the middle of a hill-hill rack for a commercial break. As long as they can survive the lies and false confrontations made up by sportswriters. And so on.

And "Goodbye" to all the independent promoters/operators. Sponsors and TV will not work with small-time operators; they'll take over every aspect of production/promotion (yes, there will be a Players Association, but it will dance to the sponsor's tune; it will have no choice) because they have to in order to make it work. They're not going to allow some independent to screw up their investment.

The Barry Bermans of the world will be offered seemingly great contracts that pay a little ($200,000) now, but millions later. But they'll get squeezed out long before "later" ever arrives. The Barrys will be replaced by a suit who doesn't know the business end of a cue stick...but he knows the sponsors and the network politics.

There will be more money for the players, but it won't be free. And there will be lots of losers among the current industry.

We all know the old saying when you scratch "That pocket has been there for 100 years" And its true it has been there about 100 years. Also for the last 100 years pool aint been main stream, dont see it happening for a 100 more years. Business goes where business is and right now that's the web, not pool. Thats not changing for a very long time.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

I like you style !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The pool industry is a shrinking pie...billiard halls are shutting down every week and there are less people playing pool every day....all this has a trigger effects...no pool on TV...no players in the pool hall...no exposure to the game to youngster and on top of all that the stigma of the game and pool rooms.

Having said all that, there are successful leagues and pool halls that have taken advantage of the situations to expand and update their room. Steinway Billiards in Astoria, New York did just that with the closure of Master Billiards.

My point is that with BB, at least they are looking to expand the market and re-introduce Pool to the general public with a new spin to the game. The old tournament events like (SBE, Derby Classic, Pro tourney, etc) are great for existing pool playing community but they not doing much to help expand the general market perception of the pool industry and are not helping much with bringing new players into the pool rooms. There are not many investments if any that are been made by any pool associations to bring the benefit of pools to the general public so as it stand pool and all related entities will continue to suffer.

So if I was a pro player, I would be choosing to play with BB and hoping that other event organizers chooses to work with BB to ensure that they don't have conflicting schedule.

I was really hoping that the Pool 300 concepts and their league ideas would have taken off. I think they have a good concept for a new game as well that would be have helps improve the market for the game in general.

I personally think that in order to get the game of pool industry back to where it is....we need to start with making the game fun and available to the younger generation. By this, I mean...the industry shouldn't be targeting pro players to help with this industry...they should be targeting the new generation of kids as soon as they are able to pick up a stick and move on up the ladders. Once the industry become a growing pies, the issue with Pro and events issues will take it's natural courses.

One of my idea was to develop a teaching system that can be implemented with a belt system like Karate organization to train young players and help develop the basic skills for competitiveness and help them built values that are similar to those taught in Martial Arts Dojos all around the world. Instead of having different styles in martial arts...we would have different training systems (my CM360 reference system) vs CTE etc...O. It would be cool to be see all pool halls been turned into Family Centers that caters to all level of plays (food, alcohol, game centers, with dedicated area specifically for teaching new players (kids been the main goal).

Those are just some of my thoughts and ideas for this market.

Duc.

I totally agree, I think this is a great idea. Ideas build a foundation !!!! Especially new ones !!!!!

 

[JCIN]

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley:
this billiard industry is small and for the most part it's in the leaders to keep it small because this keeps publicly traded companies from coming in and taking over (the Wal Marts of the world).....and this would happen if pool became successful and had a consistent TV presence with quality production and character development.




If major sponsors and TV get into pool, there will be significant changes...and not all of them will be good. Sure, there will be more money for the pros; as long as they are willing to stop shooting in the middle of a hill-hill rack for a commercial break. As long as they can survive the lies and false confrontations made up by sportswriters. And so on.

And "Goodbye" to all the independent promoters/operators. Sponsors and TV will not work with small-time operators; they'll take over every aspect of production/promotion (yes, there will be a Players Association, but it will dance to the sponsor's tune; it will have no choice) because they have to in order to make it work. They're not going to allow some independent to screw up their investment.

The Barry Bermans of the world will be offered seemingly great contracts that pay a little ($200,000) now, but millions later. But they'll get squeezed out long before "later" ever arrives. The Barrys will be replaced by a suit who doesn't know the business end of a cue stick...but he knows the sponsors and the network politics.

There will be more money for the players, but it won't be free. And there will be lots of losers among the current industry.

I agree with you about what happens when big money comes in to something. As I posted in another thread if pool ever does really explode like poker some things we all like about it will change.

My point in the quoted post was that being worried about Wal Mart taking over pool is like worrying about North Korea invading the U.S.

WOLVERINES !!!!

The flip side to the small guys getting pushed out by big money is that people in the industry who are smart will have opportunities. Look at poker. You had guys who were struggling to survive suddenly become administrators, commentators, consultants and entrepreneurs after the market exploded.

 

[Fatboy]

My point in the quoted post was that being worried about Wal Mart taking over pool is like worrying about North Korea invading the U.S.

.

i think that kid has as much chance as I do playing The Kid a race to 100.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Prove me right !

The PGA started out with 3 players, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player (they were all paid every event for their efforts). They played on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf and through TV and their efforts the PGA grew and blossomed. If they started out with a 64 man tournament or 128 people they would have had the same success pool had (until they changed). Pool can't pay tournaments with more than 8 players, so they shouldn't try until they can. The key to creating a business that has "synergy" is to PAY ALL THE PARTICIPANTS. If you don't pay your employees (in a real business) on Friday THEY DO NOT SHOW UP AGAIN.

The key to business is never hire more employees than you can pay. In the pool tournaments 80% of the players lose money by going....is this really such a great deal and does it create "good will" and positive attitudes? Do the players control this situation? No, the promoters are in 100% control of this situation, not the players. The players aren't even given a voice, if they try to "speak their mind" they're usually chastised about it. Do the Pro players think this situation is positive?

Of course not, it's a terrible deal and the players are blamed for not wanting to do it? Are you kidding, I'd never (with a clear conscious) recommend someone go work a job for 5 days (after preparing for countless hours practicing) with a 1 in 7 chance of making a pay check and pay their own expenses too???.....No one would do that in the "real working world". I'll bet nobody that reads this would do it either.......would you???

The players even have to pay an entree fee far above what the PGA charges for their tournaments. What do the players get in return? A chance to maybe make their money back and possibly a profit.What else do they get, towels, water, powder, chalk? maybe

Let's be real, in a major tournament only 10 - 15% of the field has a good chance to win......out of them only ONE WILL WIN. If you get 9 - 12 you may make a few hundred and 13 - 16 you will break about even in the typical Pro Tournament.

How would you guys like trying to get 5th place in one of these tournaments to make enough to live on for the next 3 weeks.....good deal? I have a chance to win these tournaments and it still looks bleak to try because there's NO TV....without TV, there's no Sponsorship opportunities, and without Sponsorship Opportunities you are only playing for "prize money" and this means you have a 20% chance to "break even"' at best......80% of the players will lose money these days in a Pro Billiard Event.

I don't know if Bonus Ball will be a success or not, but it's certainly a better gamble than going up against these kind of odds. They do have the right business model, ALL the players will be getting paid - so for 80% of the players it's a much better deal.

We have known each other a long time , Not only do you play great. But I alway's thought you were more smart than a lot ov uss . I like when you start putting up #s. You will not lose this battle . Go T.O. I.