Production cue vs Custom cue

[Pool Rat]

I agree with you mullyman. My first cue is a meucci sneak a pete and I played with that for about 15 years off and on. When I became a B rated player I got myself a predator 3K6 to reward myself. Although I did notice a difference in feel between the two.

My meucci have a softer hit than the predator. Also, I grip my meucci towards the rear as oppose about 6 inches from the balance point on the predator. From my understanding, the softer hit is primarily due to the shaft and joint style. As far as the difference in grip I wouldn't know since the balance seem to be approximately at the same point. Regardless of the differences I have not notice any advantages/disadvantages to my performance at the table.

 

[JB Cases]

I often think about this subject so I thought I would make a topic to discuss.

I will start out with a disclaimer. If some of my remarks are ignorant I appologize in advance I really don't know much about the cue making process but I will assume many of the steps for both production cues and customer are the same.

You are correct many are the same but often the small cue maker will take extra steps to make the cue better according to their own ideas of what makes a good cue.

So the benefits I can think of off the top of my head are as follows-

Production
1. Cost
2. Availability
3. Consistency

You nailed it.

Custom
1. Customization of weight, balance point and length
2. Customization of inlays, wood and overall look

Again you nailed it.


Custom and production cues share some qualities. You can get both in different weights. You can get different shafts for both. In some cases you can choose the wrap on both.

What I am not sure about is the "hit" of a custom cue vs a production cue. I have hit with a several custom cues and many different production cues. I agree that some have a unique feel but I don't really see a big advantage in this regard to a custom cue.

Any insight on this would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

It's all about what feels good to you. People spend a lot of time searching for the "perfect" cue and others play run out pool with the first and only cue they ever bought. You can fill your head with a lot of nonsense about this and that wood and that joint vs this one and the hit of that ferrule vs. this one but the reality of it is that 99.99% of cues made today are perfectly fine for playing high level pool and everything below that.

You can pick up any cue and know whether you like or not in a few minutes. Even if you don't like it odds are that you can be running racks with it in a fairly short time. If you do like it then that time will probably be shorter.

The funny thing is that a lot of cue aficionados would be fooled if I were to put certain "brand names" on cues we make. All of the sudden the cue would be worth more and "hit" great. It's all relative to what you feel when you pick up a cue.

This isn't to say that there isn't a high end and low end in regards to cues. Cues from different makers definitely have distinctive feel to them but how distinctive is the question? A JossWest feels different than a Meucci. But for one person the Meucci feels better and for the next it's the JW that turns them on.

I would say that the biggest difference between small cuemakers and higher volume makers is that the small makers have more luxury to be selective about their woods and processes whereas the high volume maker has to accept a broader range of wood quality and has to choose certain methods that should remain pretty much unchanged as to how they build the cues.

That doesn't mean however that the big makers aren't always looking for ways to improve their product. They are. We just changed the way that the Fury cues are made for the better in a lot of ways that aren't apparent by looking at the cue. Does this mean that they "hit" better? That's impossible to answer because every person has a different idea of what a good hit is.

And that's your answer right there. Production or custom all comes down to what you like and what you like can change anytime.

 

[mullyman]

I agree with you mullyman. My first cue is a meucci sneak a pete and I played with that for about 15 years off and on. When I became a B rated player I got myself a predator 3K6 to reward myself. Although I did notice a difference in feel between the two.

My meucci have a softer hit than the predator. Also, I grip my meucci towards the rear as oppose about 6 inches from the balance point on the predator. From my understanding, the softer hit is primarily due to the shaft and joint style. As far as the difference in grip I wouldn't know since the balance seem to be approximately at the same point. Regardless of the differences I have not notice any advantages/disadvantages to my performance at the table.

Sure, different cues are going to feel different, but, as you said, there's no advantage one way or the other. People just need to find what feels good to them. God love Tad Kohara but I've yet to find a Tad cue that feels good to me. If I had a choice between my old Schon and a Tad, we're not talking resale value, I'd have to go with my old Schon.
MULLY

 

[phishman]

I have a lot of cues---expensive and not so --production and made to order custom--- but I think for the money and looks and playability it is hard to beat a Predator sneaky pete with a wrap and a 314z shaft.

 

[LoGiC]

The biggest difference is quality control. The fact that custom cue makers go out looking for the best grained wood, look at each shaft piece individually, etc. The materials make the difference.

 

[ratcues]

I would say that the biggest difference between small cuemakers and higher volume makers is that the small makers have more luxury to be selective about their woods and processes whereas the high volume maker has to accept a broader range of wood quality and has to choose certain methods that should remain pretty much unchanged as to how they build the cues.

That is what makes a good playing cue. Wood selection and method. Those "little things" are the reason some custom makers are sought after and collected. Everything you do when making a cue affects the way it plays.

 

[Snapshot9]

Custom vs. Production

First, let me say, if I ever shot with a Production cue again, it would only be a Schon. They are higher quality than other production cues. The hit and balance points of them are close to a custom.

That being said, I shot with Huebler cues for 25 years or so, and was happy with them UNTIL I got my first custom cue (a $1,100 Shurtz) and spent 2-3 weeks with it getting used to it. With the Shurtz, which felt better and better as I played with it, I was able to overcome shots that were a problem for me before. I noticed more consistency of hit for all types of shots, which brought better consistency to my game, and helped me become a better overall player.

After I got my Shurtz, and would go back to the Huebler cue, I began to notice all kinds of things I didn't not really care for in it.

Yes, I know it is the Indian and not the bow, as they say, but a cue is a tool used to accomplish a purpose, and there is no reason you shouldn't have one that fits you perfectly to give you a better chance of accomplishing your purpose. It doesn't make the player, but it does complement the player.

 

[JB Cases]

The biggest difference is quality control. The fact that custom cue makers go out looking for the best grained wood, look at each shaft piece individually, etc. The materials make the difference.

But all "custom" cue makers don't do this.

This is why you can't just lump them together and call one group custom and say that they are better because they are in that group.

And there is certainly debate about how much difference materials make.

For example I had great hitting shafts made with the grainiest ugly shaft wood you can imagine and conversely crappy feeling shafts that were pristine in appearance.

Everyone is an individual and makes cues individually. Just about the only thing you can depend on is whatever reputation a maker has earned through their work. Simply being a small cue maker is no guarantee that the work they put out is good.

I always like to repeat this story when this thread comes up though.

George Balabushka was sitting in the audience when a player was using a Paradise cue and every time the player hit the cue ball the cue made an awful and audible sound. George said "Rodden vood, rodden vood!". I think that I might have read this in the Billiard Encyclopedia.

 

[iowa_player]

I was sitting at BigDog Billiards next to highway Paul Baker watching Jesse Bowman playing against SVB when I made a comment to Paul " Look at that two of the best players around and one of them is playing with a Jacoby and the other a Joss " He looked at me and said " Its the stroke not the cue and they don't sell those " :grin-square:


Larry

 

[Jayson]

The biggest difference is that with a custom cue you can show off how much money you spent on a cue. The balls have no idea if your cue has a forward or rear balance point or if it's 18oz or 21. As long as you are happy with your cue that is all that matters. If you can step to the table with confidence then you're good to go. One day you may want a trophy though.
MULLY

Very well said i agree 100%. I love custom cues because of wat they are, not for wat they do. Anyone who goes out and searches for the best woods and puts the time and dedication into wat they do should be appreciated. If u buy a custom cue its totally not gonna make u play better, you're just gonna be able to say that u have a cue made by so and so. I might shoot with a cue and think its the greatest thing ever, where as to someone else could play with it and think it sucks. I recently hit some balls with an amazing custom cue that a friend of mine built. He is a very well known cue maker and does amazing work. I loved the hit and the quality of everything in the cue. Did i play better with it than i play with my schon? Not at all. I would definately buy one because of wat it is, not for wat it does. It was a beautiful cue with a great hit- period. It will never make my game any better but to some people it might make me look better to be able to say that i own one. Buying custom cues to me is about passion for great work and craftmanship. If anyone thinks they're gonna buy a custom cue and play like corey deuel then they might wanna take up another hobby. Again no offense, just a personal opinion.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

The New Sharskster,

I don't know how long you have been playing, but in you OP you expressed some ignorance so I assume it has not been long. If that's the case, a quality production cue would be an excellent choice for you. I don't mean to offend, but if you haven't developed the sense of feel that will allow you to appreciate the difference between a factory rod and a finely made custom, then it would be hard to understand because it is hard to explain. I probably would not be able to distinquish the difference between some off the rack fiddle and a Stradivarius because I'm totally unfamiliar with violins and classical music. The difference is very experiential, not intellectual.

Stay around the game and develop your skills and you will understand. You almost certainly can tell that a Viking, McD etc. feels and performs better than a wall stick, right? Well, it's the same deal really, just at a higher level.

If you have been playing a while and consider your sense of feel pretty well developed, then just get a fine custom in your hands and you I think you will then know.

Hope this helps.

What did I express that was ignorant. I have never made a cue. Have you made any? I have been playing pool for over 15 years and I have owned a custom cue that I thought had a very good hit. I have also had a production cue that hits just as good IMO.

As far as your analogy with the house cue goes I disagree. When you grab a house cue it has a different taper, different weight and is one piece. Not to mention people treat them like crap so they are usually warped and dinged up. You could have a production cue and a customer cue that could have the exact same dimesnions and are both in perfect condition.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

How so? There are more than 500 brands of custom and production cues.

I bet that most custom and production cues are very similar in how they balance, within an inch or so.

I love a well made cue but what that means is personal to me. I think my first McDermott D-1 was made as well as any other cue on the planet that has ever been made. If you were to take brand names off of cues and submit them to independent testers with no prejudices then you would find that some brands which are vilified because they are "production" and "made overseas" would stand up quite well.

As players we all know what we like. We pick up a cue and it either feels great or not. But this is not because the cue is inherently good or bad, nor because it's production or custom. (by the way a cue that is not CUSTOMIZED is a PRODUCTION cue.)

It's because we as people are different in how we use things. We have different skill levels, different educations, different prejudices, and different experiences.

I have said this many times and this is once more where it's appropriate, it's damn hard to buy a BAD cue these days. We sell a $59 sneaky pete that I would put up against anyone else's cue all day everyday in an independent test. Every cue we sell can be used to win a world championship right out of the box. What more do you want?

I can pretty much guarantee that for any custom cue you can show me then I can find a cue in our inventory that has an identical balance point.

Thanks JB. I enjoyed this post.

 

[Pushout]

Been discussed forever. If you do a search here, you'll probably find more than one thread.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

What did I express that was ignorant.

I didn't mean to say that anything you posted or said in your post was ignorant. If it sounded that way I apologize, my bad. That was not at all my intent. :sorry:

When I said:

...in you OP you expressed some ignorance...

I was only referring to this statement in your first post:

I will start out with a disclaimer. If some of my remarks are ignorant I appologize in advance

So I didn't mean to say that I thought you had said something ignorant. I was only expressing that I thought that you were saying you may have some ignorance on the subject. Please note that I said in my post that I didn't mean to offend. Calling you ignorant would be offensive so hopefully you can appreciate that I wasn't trying to do that.

Obviously I misinterpreted this. Please accept my apology.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I didn't mean to say that anything you posted or said in your post was ignorant. If it sounded that way I apologize, my bad. That was not at all my intent. :sorry:

When I said:



I was only referring to this statement in your first post:



So I didn't mean to say that I thought you had said something ignorant. I was only expressing that I thought that you were saying you may have some ignorance on the subject. Please note that I said in my post that I didn't mean to offend. Calling you ignorant would be offensive so hopefully you can appreciate that I wasn't trying to do that.

Obviously I misinterpreted this. Please accept my apology.

Thanks! I know a lot of people on this forum are very serious collectors and some others are cue makers. My feeling was that some of what I said might be considered ignorant since I really don't know a lot about the cue making process. Which is why I said that.

I appreciate the humble reply and look forward to chatting with you in the future.

 

[Jaden]

I agree....

You betcha ur a$$ I could do it blind folded. Give me 100 cues, mix them up in any random order, and put my cue any where in that mix. I am willing to bet any amount of money I could identify it with my eyes closed.

That old growth shaft hits like a dream. It produces the most pleasing harmonic vibration that just sings to me every time I strike the cue ball. I am not sure if you understand that a Jacoby is every bit a custom cue as a SW. Even though Jacoby puts out a lot of cues, they are still a fine, fine custom cue shop. I've hit with a Jacoby and they are superb. ONe thing about Jacoby is they do a good amount of CNC inlays. CNC in IMO does absolutely nothing for the playability of the cue. It may even detract from the playability due to there being extra pieces that aren't needed. Full Spliced cues are among the best hitting cues and that's why Titlist conversions are so highly desired. They are simple, good looking and very stable in terms of cured wood. With my cue maker, you can guarantee that even his first works are still being played 15 years later. People like Eddie Farris is someone who gradually takes down his shaft wood PATIENTLY. Some people claim to do that, but don't and you will damn sure hear about it at some point or another. Over the course of time, only the truth will remain when it comes to a maker's intent. One thing about SW and people like Lambros (from what I understand) is that they have gone the extra mile to carefully analyze certain woods, and other parts calculating science and experience into the mix to result in an extremely 'perfect' instrument for playing. I'm talking about the quality of the glues, measured down to the right amount placed in the right spots, as well as the type of wood used to attain the correct combination of weight in all the right places. Joint type such as the 3/8x11 pin that Southwest is famous for as well as the flat faced joint which brings the most surface contact between shaft and butt is something they have looked into and researched extensively and have simply, 'figured something out'.

They are not the only ones though. I'm not going to sit here and name specific cue builders, but, rather, do your own homework and find your own answers. You will find that only you can determine what you like. I refuse to be the one to tell you that. I can be courteous enough to let you in on my experiences, but you need to make up your own mind from there. Ask some of the cue makers in the 'ask the cue maker section' and you will find that they are more than willing to share. I only ask that you continue to 'be respectful' and take your time in all of this.

Enjoy your journey. Savor it. Get a blue book and ask questions. It can be quite addictive, but you could be addicted to worse things. Good Luck.

P.S. Yes, the old growth shaft has deflection. Maybe not as much as a newer wood, cause it is a stiffer wood, but deflect it does. Many of the people on this forum know how I feel about deflection and don't get me started on it. I will recommend that you welcome deflection as a part of the game and learn how to tame it. Otherwise you will be forever running from it like a big chicken.

I use a custom Viking as a break cue and as soon as I strike a ball with it I know immediately that I forgot to switch cues.

It might be because I use BHE and they have different pivot points, but they FEEL different and I can easily tell.

Jaden

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

----:thumbup:----

 

[Maniac]

You betcha ur a$$ I could do it blind folded. Give me 100 cues, mix them up in any random order, and put my cue any where in that mix. I am willing to bet any amount of money I could identify it with my eyes closed.

I'm not wanting to start an argument here, but I'm not so sure that you could pull this off given that the 100 cues all had the same wrap, butt diameter, tip, shaft taper, and weight. I would think that there would be, out of 100 cues, at least one (if not several) that would have a hit so similar to yours that you would have trouble identifying exactly which one is yours. Just the grind of hitting balls by switching out 100 cues is going to cause fatigue which in turn is going to generate some confusion.
Again, this is only my opinion.

Maniac

 

[Sweet Marissa]

I've played with many different production cues, and would have to say that Schon has been the best. However, I wouldn't trade my Jacoby for any production cue. Dave and his crew were great with cue specifications and design at a fair and reasonable price. Definitely worth every cent!

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I've played with many different production cues, and would have to say that Schon has been the best. However, I wouldn't trade my Jacoby for any production cue. Dave and his crew were great with cue specifications and design at a fair and reasonable price. Definitely worth every cent!

I had a Jacoby at one point. I have been thinking about getting another.