production or not

T

tom haney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All the talk about Schuler's cues got me to
wondering, what's production and what's not?
Meucci, McDermott, Joss, Lucasi, Predator,
Pechauer, Viking- production.
Schick, Gina, Hercek, Searing, DPK- custom.
What about Rauenzahn, DP, Jackson,Espiritu,
Coker, Schuler original, Kikel, Scruggs, Olney,
Diviney, Josey, Schurtz, Stacey, Bludworth,
Mordt, Murrell, Harris, Gilbert, Weston?
They all call themselves custom. Who is and
who isn't?
 
I would call a custom cuemaker a person who makes a cue that is one of a kind, not a mass produciton cue,some border on being this like DP cues.
 
further clarification

I'm talking about buying used.
I bought a Mottey and a Scruggs on ebay
that were obviously made for somebody.
They were unique.
I bought a Jacoby custom that while nice
was obviously one of many.
I've seen several Josey fancy sp's &
Harris plain janes that look alike.
I've got 2 Jacksons. One's unique and
the other looks production.
What about my Bender that I bought used
or my Kikel that I bought new from a dealer?
Are there others just like those and if so are
they custom or production?
It's very confusing.
 
I would consider what Kikel and DP to do as bordering on production work because the inlay patterns are often the same but choice of wood or inlay material might be different,its called a custom cue because its made to your specs and usually is a 1 off.If i buy a used 1 of a kind cue its still a custom cue,the cuemakers who are producing the same cue over and over as the 2 mentioned above do lower the value on there cues and there past ones which is certainly a shame for the guy who spent $2000 5-10 years ago from DP,lol.:cool:
 
hondo said:
All the talk about Schuler's cues got me to
wondering, what's production and what's not?
Meucci, McDermott, Joss, Lucasi, Predator,
Pechauer, Viking- production.
Schick, Gina, Hercek, Searing, DPK- custom.
What about Rauenzahn, DP, Jackson,Espiritu,
Coker, Schuler original, Kikel, Scruggs, Olney,
Diviney, Josey, Schurtz, Stacey, Bludworth,
Mordt, Murrell, Harris, Gilbert, Weston?
They all call themselves custom. Who is and
who isn't?
Click to expand...

They are all production. They are produced. Some are mass producers. Some are low volume fabricators.

Custom is not the opposite of production. Never has been, never will be. I don't know when people started making the presumption that they are opposites.

A custom cuemaker doesn't always have to make a customer-specific cue. A mass producer can make a custom mass-production.


That's my input into this. The confusion happens because the terms are incorrectly used to begin with.

Fred <~~~ works for a custom mass producer
 
hondo said:
All the talk about Schuler's cues got me to
wondering, what's production and what's not?
Meucci, McDermott, Joss, Lucasi, Predator,
Pechauer, Viking- production.
Schick, Gina, Hercek, Searing, DPK- custom.
What about Rauenzahn, DP, Jackson,Espiritu,
Coker, Schuler original, Kikel, Scruggs, Olney,
Diviney, Josey, Schurtz, Stacey, Bludworth,
Mordt, Murrell, Harris, Gilbert, Weston?
They all call themselves custom. Who is and
who isn't?
Click to expand...

So, of the ones I have in question, Rauenzahn
through Weston, which ones do you consider
mainly production and which ones are considered
mainly custom? And, yes, Cornerman, I do
understand your point.
 
hondo said:
So, of the ones I have in question, Rauenzahn
through Weston, which ones do you consider
mainly production and which ones are considered
mainly custom? And, yes, Cornerman, I do
understand your point.
Click to expand...

The Weston in my avatar is custom! The way I look at it is as follows:

Custom - customer orders specific cue to their specs.
Spec - cuemaker makes a unique cue he will sell with no buyer before hand.
Series - a design repeated for a specific number of cues i.e. 1 of x.
Production - standard models that are continually produced.

The simpler the cue the more it tends toward production as opposed to spec. Thus, like Cornerman said, a cuemaker can do any of the above regardless of their output numbers.
 
It has to do with whos hands are doing the work. Kikel does all of his work, by hand, without CNC. If that is "production" I'm a billy goat. If it is the cuemaker and cuemaker alone building the cue, then it is a custom.

Some cuemakers, such as myself, build a "line" of cues which are meant to give an idea of what we are capable of. The customer can then come up with their own design based either on that design or of their own. Then it is custom made to those specs.

Production is a crew of people making cues and then marking them with a brand name. ie; Meucci, Viking, McDermott.
 
ratcues said:
It has to do with whos hands are doing the work. Kikel does all of his work, by hand, without CNC. If that is "production" I'm a billy goat. If it is the cuemaker and cuemaker alone building the cue, then it is a custom. .
Click to expand...
If each person is allowed to redefine the meaning of the words production and custom, there is zero hope for consensus or clarity for that matter. And we'll get further and further from the true definition. And the question hondo asked can never be anwered.

Therefore, I will define production as anything made with equipment that have wheels or gears.

Custom is anything made with knives and stones only.

HTH,

Fred <~~~ but I doubt it
 
zeeder said:
The Weston in my avatar is custom! The way I look at it is as follows:

Custom - customer orders specific cue to their specs.
Spec - cuemaker makes a unique cue he will sell with no buyer before hand.
Series - a design repeated for a specific number of cues i.e. 1 of x.
Production - standard models that are continually produced.

.
Click to expand...
I think this is the direction to go. That way, hondo gets a real answer. \

So and so does spec. (on speculation cues) high-end production cues (McWorter?).

So and so does high end series, unlimited. (Ginacue?)

So and so does only one offs (insert name here).

So and so does ~half low volume catalog production, and the other half limited production catalog. They might make 1% customer specified cues .

Because it doesn't make sense to equate Mike Lambros' Cues as custom compared to Sheldon Lebow as custom. Mike makes a standard set of specifications, has a line catalog, and will take customer ordered parameters. Sheldon will build a truly customer specified cues, like the 3-piece cue in the other thread.

With these type of descriptions, the question can be answered. Without them, and with the continued use of custom vs. production, the question can't be answered.

Fred
 
zeeder said:
The Weston in my avatar is custom! The way I look at it is as follows:

Custom - customer orders specific cue to their specs.
Spec - cuemaker makes a unique cue he will sell with no buyer before hand.
Series - a design repeated for a specific number of cues i.e. 1 of x.
Production - standard models that are continually produced.

The simpler the cue the more it tends toward production as opposed to spec. Thus, like Cornerman said, a cuemaker can do any of the above regardless of their output numbers.
Click to expand...

According to this, a Bender, Southwest, McWorter, Tad, virtually any plain Hoppe style 4 pointer, etc. would all be considered production cues?

Cornerman, your guess is as good as anyones' out there. You can define custom by any means you wish. I really don't think it makes a difference what you call them, but others' perceptions of them do make a difference in the secondary market.

Southwest cues is the perfect example. Probably 95% are made virtually the same (satin model or a 6 pointer with or without the rings), but the marketabiliyt is high because of the playability, regardless of how many out there might be identical to the one you may have. Schons are production in my opinion, but have relatively decent resale value as others that are typically considered production (Meucci, McDermott, Joss, Viking, Pechauer). But they are great playing cues.

When I post cues for sale/trade, and stated that I don't want any trade offers for production cues, most people understand who the major production cue companies are. Another thing that I would consider is whether they consider themselves a "company" or a cuemaker.

I would think that if you called them, the following would consider themselves companies. You may wish to add to the list.

Meucci, Joss, McDermott, Viking, Pechauer, Lucasi, Players, Huebler, Jackson, Schmelke, maybe Schon. I'm sure there are others.
 
cuenut said:
According to this, a Bender, Southwest, McWorter, Tad, virtually any plain Hoppe style 4 pointer, etc. would all be considered production cues?
Click to expand...

If a customer didn't order the cue to their specifications from the above cuemakers then it is a "production" or standard model cue. I don't personally like the term production but that's the term a lot of people use. Perhaps line or catalog cue is more appropriate?!
 
Originally Posted by cuenut
According to this, a Bender, Southwest, McWorter, Tad, virtually any plain Hoppe style 4 pointer, etc. would all be considered production cues?


zeeder said:
If a customer didn't order the cue to their specifications from the above cuemakers then it is a "production" or standard model cue. I don't personally like the term production but that's the term a lot of people use. Perhaps line or catalog cue is more appropriate?!
Click to expand...

using your thoughts, would this mean that any cue sold on the secondary market now "becomes" a production cue because it's not made to the specs of the new owner?
 
I think "production" has to do with the volume and number of people making the cues. Here is an example.... J pechaur. From my knowledge he used to be a small 1-2 person shop. He touched/worked on every cue. At that point he was "custom".

Now he prolly has a shop of 20 people doing various pieces of the cue process. He may or may not even SEE a cue you buy before it gets to you.... I think this is now "production"

course this is all MHO

Ian
 
skins said:
using your thoughts, would this mean that any cue sold on the secondary market now "becomes" a production cue because it's not made to the specs of the new owner?
Click to expand...

No, to the purchaser it would be the same as a spec cue if it were unique or a model or catalog cue if it were basic. That being said, I've purchased a spec cue before and called it a custom so as not to confuse my friends...lol. Like I said in my original post, this is the way I look at the names and I thought it may help others to form their own opinions how to differentiate between the different types of cues. When it all comes down to it it's all just semantics.
 
zeeder said:
No, to the purchaser it would be the same as a spec cue if it were unique or a model or catalog cue if it were basic. That being said, I've purchased a spec cue before and called it a custom so as not to confuse my friends...lol. Like I said in my original post, this is the way I look at the names and I thought it may help others to form their own opinions how to differentiate between the different types of cues. When it all comes down to it it's all just semantics.
Click to expand...

no disrespect but it may be semantics iyo but imo you thoughts are flawed as far as what makes a custom cue "custom". if that's the way you determine for yourself that's fine but me and many other maker/collectors think differently. though the word custom may literally mean what you're describing, the meaning as far as production vs. custom cue makers has other factors such as, how much the "namesake" participates in the process of the cues being made. to me, the fact that a "custom" maker controls, hands on, the process from start to finish is what make their cues custom. having your own playing specs is what makes it customer specific. that's how i separate the two.
 
skins said:
no disrespect but it may be semantics iyo but imo you thoughts are flawed as far as what makes a custom cue "custom". if that's the way you determine for yourself that's fine but me and many other maker/collectors think differently. though the word custom may literally mean what you're describing, the meaning as far as production vs. custom cue makers has other factors such as, how much the "namesake" participates in the process of the cues being made. to me, the fact that a "custom" maker controls, hands on, the process from start to finish is what make their cues custom. having your own playing specs is what makes it customer specific. that's how i separate the two.
Click to expand...

Well, if the word custom literally means what I am describing then perhaps the terminology needs to change to something more literal than figurative?! It'd be a lot less confusing and you wouldn't have to have the "custom vs production" debates if the titles were more literal and descriptive. Also, for what it's worth the word semantics is literally the study of meanings...lol.

That being said, I certainly understand your point and until the terminology changes you've got to do what you've got to do. It's not like I try to impose my terminology on others!

Happy designing!

Zack
 
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zeeder said:
for what it's worth the word semantics is literally the study of meanings...lol.

Zack
Click to expand...

i know. i meant to put in " " and a ";)" at the end and i forgot. oh well. :o

enjoy the holidays!:)
 
The correct word is "Artisan"

zeeder said:
Well, if the word custom literally means what I am describing then perhaps the terminology needs to change to something more literal than figurative?!
Click to expand...

Exactly. "Custom" is widely accepted in the industry but simply the wrong word, widely open to misinterpretation and arguments just like this. Not only that but the word is widely abused outside the industry too. (I used to drive a 1990 Buick LeSabre "Custom"!)

The correct word IMHO is "Artisan". In my definition an "Artisan" cue would be defined by the following properties:
1) Be made by an individual or a very small group of people under direct supervision of an identifiable individual.
2) Be made of high quality materials.
3) Be made using high quality construction and assembly methods. (Whether these are manual, semi manual or automated is not relevant, only the quality/skill of how the methods are used.)

By simple logic cues made that meet these 3 factors can never be very high volume, although with use of CNC machinery it is possible to get close, especially if one of these elements is compromised. (E.G. Dale Perry)

Anything that does not meet this criteria is a Production cue.

On top of this various other factors would enhance to the Artisan quality of a cue, but are not required as long as 1-3 are present.
4) Be of a very original design
5) Be of a very original construction
6) Be made from rare, difficult to use or non-standard materials
7) Be capable of high levels of customization to meet an individual customer's needs
8) Be generally considered to be a classic example of design and/or construction

Now that we have this agreed I will PM AZMike a simple SQL routine that will find and replace all instances of "Custom" on the board with "Artisan" and then we can finally move on.
 
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