Proofs of the EXACTNESS of Pivot Systems

[LAMas]

Thanks for adding the 2 lines and I can see them both only at this eye/head/body /feet location.

If I try to focus the left line away from "A" (left 1/4 OB) and move (my stance), to the left, to a new secondary aim line at point "B" (1/2) which is to the right of the original "A" point, my primary CTE aim line is focused to the right of the edge of the OB and is no longer on the CTE aim line.

This is true if you continue to move to the left until the end of the secondary aim line is moved to the right from point "A" to "C".....or further to the left to the 1/8 inside of the right edge of the OB.

What say you.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

The reality is, even if someone were to show the math, which is possible, but I suspect very few would even know where to begin, and the math showed that it is accurate to within +- 1/8" of center, you would still say "see, the math proves it's not exact". Truth is Pat, you have zero desire to prove if the system works as described or not. Your only agenda is to prove at any silly means that it doesn't.

That's really an unfair statement. I think, if you could prove that CTE is as "exact" as GB (I think what you meant here, was "as exact as it could possibly be"), everybody would accept that fact. There wouldn't be any other choice. A fact is a fact. I would accept it. And Dr. Dave would be all over it (don't know why you all put him in the "naysayer" group). Alas the math so far shows, that CTE has problems concerning its "exactness". But YOU people won't accept that. Instead you try to fumble around with lines and shotcircles, invent lines that don't exist until ... what? Math doesn't make any compromises.

 

[champ2107]

Below is a portion of that photograph. Are the two lines in red the correct ones?

they are correct and that is the visual Stan wants you to see behind the cue ball and assuming your in that 45 degree position, you now will move to a right pivot position like stan has shown in the dvd or like Neil describe a few posts ago for a straight/slight cut in or use a left pivot for a very thick cut to the left.

again with that visual just go straight to the pre pivot position. Dont worry about where your cue is going other than straight to the pre pivot position you have chosen, which would be left or right pre pivot position.

I didnt want to add lines to the picture in case someone got upset or something, maybe i will put a visual pic for the other remaining 4 shots tonight to the left. That pic has two visuals in it, a right pivot for straight-in (very little or no cut),a left pivot for very thick cut to the left (more than about 3/4-ball hit).

 

[Neil]

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[cleary]

Proof? Ask the guy I played last night.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Neil:
...if you don't do it right, and just go by feel, you have no chance of making the ball with this system

You have no chance of making the ball using this system without feel.

pj
chgo

 

[Koop]

Why do you guys bother?
This is like pointing two magnets at each other with the same polarity facing each other. Pointless and will never come together.

 

[Mikjary]

Thanks for adding the 2 lines and I can see them both only at this eye/head/body /feet location.

If I try to focus the left line away from "A" (left 1/4 OB) and move (my stance), to the left, to a new secondary aim line at point "B" (1/2) which is to the right of the original "A" point, my primary CTE aim line is focust to the right of the edge of the OB and is no longer on the CTE aim line.

This is true if you continue to move to the left until the end of the secondary aim line is moved to the right from point "A" to "C".....or further to the left to the 1/8 inside of the right edge of the OB.

What say you.

View attachment 173373

LAMas,

If I'm following you correctly, you are losing the Cte line as you move to B and then even further to C (1/8). With this in mind, I can only assume you are standing too square to the shot. Depending on your individual stance, try turning with your front side/head/eyes at more of a sideways or angled approach. Although your dominant right eye will want to take a lesser role with your left eye forward, with practice it will work for you. Possibly you are placing too much emphasis on the dominant eye and getting mixed signals when you line up attempting to use both eyes.

Both eyes are always working when you sight the edges, but as the eyes shift back and forth between the edges your brain picks out what image it wants to process from which eye. I think your dominant eye could either be very dominant or you could be consciously telling it what to see and losing the input from the other eye.

You may have to use only your dominant eye to sight the edges. I can do this, but it is a lot of work. My dominant eye tires easily and I have to shift my head position to an uncomfortable spot. My brain usually gives up and tries to revert to using both eyes after half a rack. For some players, this WILL be the chosen method. I think it will be a very small amount of them.

If you use only one reference point, you are losing the value of the visuals and not lining up correctly. This is the most important part of the system. It is the benchmark for any future consistent results. Using only A,B, or C reduces your use to a fractional aiming system and the pivot is not really necessary. Consistency will never be achieved and your progress will be sporadic. Also, bouncing back and forth in a rack with different systems, if you rely mainly on a dominant eye, will be a challenge at first. :wink: You will get visual schizophrenia until you work with it. lol Consider it an eye exercise!

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

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[Neil]

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[LAMas]

45 degree question.
One cannot be 45 degrees to the side of the CTE line for he will be looking at the felt and not the OB.

Is it that my eyes must be 45 degrees with respect to the surface of the table, CB/OB - where the CB ball is at the apex? This would be like in the photo.

If not then what?

 

[LAMas]

LAMas,

If I'm following you correctly, you are losing the Cte line as you move to B and then even further to C (1/8). With this in mind, I can only assume you are standing too square to the shot. Depending on your individual stance, try turning with your front side/head/eyes at more of a sideways or angled approach. Although your dominant right eye will want to take a lesser role with your left eye forward, with practice it will work for you. Possibly you are placing too much emphasis on the dominant eye and getting mixed signals when you line up attempting to use both eyes.

Correct, but for months I have been sighting with my left eye on the left edge of the OB for cuts to the right and vis versa with my right (dominant eye). As I move from B to C to 1/8, my left eye in this case, forces me to move to the left and I achieve a new stance at each and achieve a different cut angle on the OB...it works.

Both eyes are always working when you sight the edges, but as the eyes shift back and forth between the edges your brain picks out what image it wants to process from which eye. I think your dominant eye could either be very dominant or you could be consciously telling it what to see and losing the input from the other eye.

This is true and why I may not be consistent, but I am in the ballpark i.e. +/- 2 degrees.

You may have to use only your dominant eye to sight the edges. I can do this, but it is a lot of work. My dominant eye tires easily and I have to shift my head position to an uncomfortable spot. My brain usually gives up and tries to revert to using both eyes after half a rack. For some players, this WILL be the chosen method. I think it will be a very small amount of them.

If you use only one reference point, you are losing the value of the visuals and not lining up correctly. This is the most important part of the system. It is the benchmark for any future consistent results. Using only A,B, or C reduces your use to a fractional aiming system and the pivot is not really necessary. Consistency will never be achieved and your progress will be sporadic. Also, bouncing back and forth in a rack with different systems, if you rely mainly on a dominant eye, will be a challenge at first. :wink: You will get visual schizophrenia until you work with it. lol Consider it an eye exercise!

I hear you and am now only a fractional CTE aim shooter. I am waiting to hear how to fill in the cut angles in between A, B, C and 1/8.
As are others.


Best,
Mike

"I can only assume you are standing too square to the shot. Depending on your individual stance, try turning with your front side/head/eyes at more of a sideways or angled approach."

Neil has given me the same info and I agree that it is an important part of the system now. It puts one eye above the other. One is on the aim point on the OB and the other is below and supressed - reducing the conflict when both eyes are on the same horizontal plane vying for dominance.

I imagine that if I turned my head 90 degrees, that I would only see one vertical aim line. LOL

I will try this at the table...45 degrees first.:thumbup:

Thanks guys.

 

[jsp]

Once you have those two lines. Your head can only be in one position.
From there, you find center cb. Again, find it vertically and there is no feel to it. From center you place your tip 1/2 from center. Another definitive point. From that tip position, you pivot back to center, another definitive point. No feel to it. From there, you shoot.

Umm...pivot point? Is the pivot point definitive?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There are only two places in the system where feel could even come into play, as you will see. First thing you do is sight your two lines. No feel there at all. You have a definitive center to edge point. Center is not by feel unless you are looking horizontally at the cb. If you look vertically at the cb, you have a definitive top and bottom to find center. No feel. The other line, you have a very, very, small portion that "could" be attributed to feel by some. That is finding 1/4 ball. Easy enough to do, but there is no definitive point to say "this is 1/4 ball exactly. You do have to judge exactly where 1/4 is.

Now, if you want to toss the system because you have to judge what 1/4 ball is, well, one would have to be so stupid that they shouldn't and can't play pool at all anyways.

Once you have those two lines. Your head can only be in one position.

That can only mean where the lines cross - but they don't cross when you're using aim point B (because that line is parallel with the CTE line), and when you're using aim point A or C the lines only cross at your eyes when your eyes are exactly the same distance from the CB as the CB is from the OB. In other words, these lines just about never cross. So exactly how is this precise eye location determined? When it "seems like" you can see down both lines? What if it "seems like" that to me at a different point than it does to you?

From there, you find center cb. Again, find it vertically and there is no feel to it. From center you place your tip 1/2 from center. Another definitive point.

Is your stick parallel with the line from your eyes to CB center?

From that tip position, you pivot back to center, another definitive point.

Pivot at what pivot length?

No feel to it.

Well, it's clear that you don't know there's any feel to it. But it's also clear that there is.

The only other part that "feel" can come into play is in picking your A,B, or C. And, that doesn't have to be by feel. One can sit down and see the angles needed for each position, and then definitively say whether the shot is an A, B, or C choice.

Only by feel. Otherwise, explain how one measures this.

If you follow the steps precisely as they are given, there is no feel.

You don't understand what you're saying.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

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[Neil]

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[Masayoshi]

The reality is, even if someone were to show the math, which is possible, but I suspect very few would even know where to begin, and the math showed that it is accurate to within +- 1/8" of center, you would still say "see, the math proves it's not exact". Truth is Pat, you have zero desire to prove if the system works as described or not. Your only agenda is to prove at any silly means that it doesn't.

+- 1/8" would equate to about a 12 degree margin of error, which would be absurdly inaccurate.

On 4.5 inch pockets, this large margin of error would only guarantee to make shots where the object ball is no more than 10 inches from the pocket assuming the shot has a full pocket and everything that goes in the pocket opening falls (and everything that doesn't hit the pocket opening first stays up).

 

[Neil]

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[Masayoshi]

Geezy Pete! What math are you using?? 1/8" from dead center is 1/8" from dead center. AND, if you read the post, you will see that that number is just a number I threw out there. I never stated how far from the pocket you were, but I see that you had to make it nice and close just to try and make the system look bad. What a tool!

Its not my fault you are vague and illogical. I was assuming you meant 1/8" from the contact point to make the ball go to the center of the pocket as that is the only point that would have any real meaning in terms of accuracy.

If you meant the object ball is accurate to 1/8" of dead center pocket, that has absolutely no way to reference how accurate the system is. For example, if the object ball is 1 foot away from the pocket and you have +-1/8" from dead center pocket accuracy, move the object ball back to 2 feet and all of a sudden, your accuracy drops to +-1/4".

I always find it reassuring when my opponent in an argument can only rely on insults and faulty reasoning to back up his claims. That further reassures me that I am correct.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Go on a table an work with it, not on a piece of paper.

If you were capable of working it out on paper you'd know that what you think is happening on the table isn't. I don't mean whether or not you make shots; I mean how you do that. CTE undoubtedly helps you, but not in the way you think.

pj
chgo