And yet there is no game you have any chance of beating him at. SJD can debate CJ but you are not qualified to shine the shoes of either of them when it comes to playing ability or knowledge of the game.
Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM
- Thread starter HawaiianEye
- Start date
And yet there is no game you have any chance of beating him at. SJD can debate CJ but you are not qualified to shine the shoes of either of them when it comes to playing ability or knowledge of the game.
I do. I have discussed pool with and taken instruction from many bonafide champions and their knowledge of the game is way deeper than an amateur's. Which Lou most certainly is.
We can discuss pool up to a point. But there are levels that pros see and understand the game at that we do not comprehend no matter how much we want to believe we do.
Lou, John Barton and I, have had a fragile truce in place for quite a while now, so I will not intercede in your [sic] exciting debate with him ! (except to say, for Chrissake...JACK IT UP !!!)
I am however amazed that he, being a DEVOUT C.J. 'cheer leader', (I will not use the "dangler" metaphor) has managed to hold his metal, regarding our complete 180 degree difference of opinion, on many subjects !
Thank you John, you are a man of your word !..Plus, I think the fact that you know I'm right, may have some bearing on the subject at hand !..........Oh, I see, then you would also have to admit Lou is right !..I get it now ! :thumbup:
Actually I don't know who is right but I also think it doesn't matter really. One pocket is a game and nine ball is a game and one being declared harder than another does not matter at all because those who excel at either will always be recognized for their accomplishments.
No one who thinks one pocket is harder than straight pool for example would ever dare to claim that Ronnie Allen was a better player than Willie Mosconi at 14.1 simply because Ronnie was a master of a "tougher" game.
If you are right then Lou is right by virtue of parroting your position not because he really knows one way or the other.
There's only so much you can do on a table.(to be correct)I'm sure you've watch plenty of match's and could tell exactly what was going to happen next.Maybe you couldn't do it yourself but you seen what needed to be done.Ones ability doesn't out weight ones Knowledge in a discussion format.
Not sure of Lou's speed but I'm betting he's know dummy understanding the game.
OH..................is he on tour?
Let me relate a story that perhaps better explains my position.
I was taking a one pocket lesson from Joe Salazar. (SJD feel free to chime on Joe's stature as a player)
Anyway Joe is explaining to me what he would do in a particular situation and standing there watching is Toby Flaherty. (someone else chime in on Toby's ability please)
Toby disagrees with Joe and they get into a discussion of why this move is better and what it means to the position and what it will mean several shots later. They go on like this for about five minutes while I stand there. Meanwhile I didn't even see the first move Joe was teaching me.
And I had similar experiences with Buddy Hall and others. Clearly as an amateur spectator and especially if one has the benefit of professional commentary it's easy to learn to predict the likely moves. That is still far removed from actually having that level of professional experience in the box for big money.
Of course Lou is no dummy when it comes to pool games. He is about as smart as any other decent amateur player. But in my opinion he is not nearly as smart as he thinks he is and it's my contention that MOST of us amateurs are not as smart about pool as we think we are. It goes beyond the inability to execute.
Let me put it another way that maybe makes it more plain.
If Efren or Scott Frost or any other high level one pocket player were to gamble against another high level player BUT the stipulation is that ONE of them were ONLY allowed to shoot exactly the shot Lou picks with ZERO discussion which one would you bet on? The guy Lou is directing or the opponent?
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Of course and Efren is the exception not the rule as you commentators make note of constantly.
Infinite is a big number. There are rarely infinite options, even with our custom cases where the options are close to infinite
I am not debating this with you Jay. Just saying that it is my opinion that both games have levels of intricacy that amateurs don't comprehend. If CJ can defend his position on video then he should do so because the result would be, as has been pointed out, a deeper understanding and appreciation for both games for a lot of us.
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I have never rescinded my offer to play a ten ahead for $10,000 against Lou even up. He linked to it and in that thread said $1000 a game is not worth it to him or his "backers". I have to say then I am not in his league as far as high rolling gambling goes. I mean to be honest I have never heard of him playing ANYONE for more than $20 a game but apparently $1000 a game is not enough to get him to the table.
So my offer stands as long as I know far enough in advance that we have a game and that the money is posted. I will be at the Super Billiards Expo next year and we can play at Sandcastle Billiards. It can be streamed and the resulting video sold as a How Not To Play One Pocket documentary.
Unlike CJ I need a much longer time to get into one pocket fighting shape. Might have to dust off the videos......
Klockdoc, you must have missed a post, or twenty !>>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4393808&postcount=163
No, he literally just learned the game and then went down and beat all the champions at Tunica. Bustamante in the finals
Now, he did play a little to that occasionally with some locals, but was relatively new to the game. ( you know...how to break and which pocket was his afterwards) :wink:
I understand what your trying to say but what separates a lot of people is the ability to execute not the move.Champion or not doesn't mean there's not another choice to get it done.But I understand the wanting to agree with a champion.
Btw I bet with Lou calling the shot's, they still play well.:smile:
Anthony
Have to agree there.
I can tell you the correct shot every time (not single pocket, but other games).....but consistently executing THAT shot is what separates the champions from the amateurs.
I like Lou's odds on that bet.
Well then let's put it to the test. I will take say Shannon Daulton and you can have whoever you want with Lou coaching. How much are you willing to bet? To be clear Lou has to call the exact shot each time and the player has to shoot it. They are NOT allowed to discuss anything or otherwise have any signals. Still playing well and making world beater decisions are two different things. What you are saying is that Lou thinks like a world beater and I disagree.
It's not the wanting to agree with a champion. I know you don't really think much of champion's knowledge and have had words with CJ over it. For me it's purely 20 years of experience WITH champions from Bustamante to Reid. I know a lot of people on this forum have had interactions with champions but it was my job for twenty years to hang out with them and I used it to pick their brains on and off the table.
Believe me I don't KISS ANYONE'S ASS here. Not CJ's or anyone's. I just happen to have a little more respect for the level that the pros are at than a lot of people here do. And that comes from being around them so much, not from watching them on videos.
I think that an awful lot of people here don't REALLY understand how far away championship world class level pool is from their level. I think I myself didn't understand it for a long time, especially not until I started hanging out with pros, getting lessons, sparring (racking for) with them, talking pool and so on. You may THINK you know pool and THINK you know all the moves but I promise you there are levels and nuances that they know that even good amateurs do not know.
It might be comforting as an amateur to think you have all the same knowledge as them but you really don't. Not YOU specifically because of course I have NO idea what you do or don't know but if I had to bet I'd say that most high level pros still know a lot more than you even as good as you play. Wouldn't be the first bet I lost.
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Same as Archer who won the first straight pool event he entered after literally learning the game a week before. He ran 199 in the finals against Nick Varner.
I'm well aware that I will have to prove this to you and many others (ps: you're first statement is not true fyi).....I will enjoy seeing the look on your faces when you "real eyes" how complex 'Two Show Shoot Out' really is......am I saying I'm an expert at the game? Yes, I AM saying that loud and clear......I've won much more playing Two Shot Shoot Out that Efren's won playing One Pocket.
There's many things about the game that only a few players know.....those players are including ones like Reid Pierce, "Country Calvin", David Matlock, LA Keith, Omaha John, Weldon Rogers, Buddy Hall, James Christopher, Sammy Jones, Johnny Ross, etc.
I know the game inside and out because of the players listed above - as with all evolving knowledge, it's learned by "standing on each other's {information} shoulders.
One pocket is a very strategic and complex game, but it is still limited because there's only one pocket you score in and one pocket you have to guard against. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there's usually more balls that you can effect and there's 6 pockets you can shoot at AND you have to guard against. This brings about potentially thousands of different variables (maybe even millions according to Einstein) .....I'm not sure how to calculate the number, so I'm making an educated guess.
Those that have "eyes that can see" the deepest levels of pool will start to understand the differences with those hints I just offered.......although it takes many years to actually learn the shots and scenarios.
'The Game is the Teacher'
Son, I was playing "roll out" pool when you were in diapers! I hung around and gambled with and against the greatest 9-Ball players of the 60's, 70's and 80's, when "push-out" was how they played the game. I happen to have spent a great deal of time around Omaha John, Matlock, Johnny Ross (we played some), Buddy, James, and many others you didn't mention. I got to watch closely and learn just like you did later on. I may have even showed them a few things. I guarantee you that both Buddy and Efren learned a shot or two from me, and we can bet high on that! All you got to do is ask them.
By the way, you may have gambled much higher than me, but nobody had a won-loss record like me for about 8-10 years when I was playing every day. I had a record like the Globetrotters, maybe booking a loser once every 4-6 months! You can ask the old timers who are still around about that. Ask Jimmy Reid or Keith. I had a healthy bank account when all the champions were running around broke. I knew how to bank that money every day, playing five and ten dollar pool. By age 27 I had over 15K in the bank, enough to buy my first poolroom. MOST of it came from playing "roll-out" 9-Ball!
So excuse me if I have an opinion about all that. I don't disagree that 'roll out' or 'push out' 9-Ball with it's rules was a much more complex and difficult game than the current version of 9-Ball. But after watching Texas Express 9-Ball for 30 years, I've come to the conclusion that the best players will still win. It's all about HEART when it comes right down to it. That's true for One Pocket or any other pool game. Whoever said it's about who executes best was right on. The great players can execute the more difficult shots under pressure. And the slightly lesser players don't!
All that said, One Pocket is an infinitely more difficult game to excel at, with so many variances and options to consider. There's a million guys who play good 9-Ball with the current conditions (of course there are about 50-100 who are the best), but there may only be a couple hundred top flight One Pocket players who can compete on the highest level. And you want to tell me that you can be a top One Pocket player in three weeks! PUHLEEEZE! Even Efren took months to get good at the game and he's a once-in-a-lifetime player. It was about two years after he started playing before he was recognized as one of the best players. Early on, he was an underdog to Shannon, Miz, Hopkins, Sigel, Varner, Rempe and Fusco. Did you know that? Harold Worst was the only player who may have been Efren's equal, and he watched and learned for a couple of years before entering the One Pocket divisions at the Stardust and Johnston City. Like Efren he was a winner too!
Sorry CJ, but trying to tell me that 9-Ball in any form is more difficult than One Pocket is ludicrous. I guess you just don't like the game since you weren't nearly as good at it as you were at 9-Ball.
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Well then let's put it to the test. I will take say Shannon Daulton and you can have whoever you want with Lou coaching. How much are you willing to bet? To be clear Lou has to call the exact shot each time and the player has to shoot it. They are NOT allowed to discuss anything or otherwise have any signals. Still playing well and making world beater decisions are two different things. What you are saying is that Lou thinks like a world beater and I disagree.
It's not the wanting to agree with a champion. I know you don't really think much of champion's knowledge and have had words with CJ over it. For me it's purely 20 years of experience WITH champions from Bustamante to Reid. I know a lot of people on this forum have had interactions with champions but it was my job for twenty years to hang out with them and I used it to pick their brains on and off the table.
Believe me I don't KISS ANYONE'S ASS here. Not CJ's or anyone's. I just happen to have a little more respect for the level that the pros are at than a lot of people here do. And that comes from being around them so much, not from watching them on videos.
I think that an awful lot of people here don't REALLY understand how far away championship world class level pool is from their level. I think I myself didn't understand it for a long time, especially not until I started hanging out with pros, getting lessons, sparring (racking for) with them, talking pool and so on. You may THINK you know pool and THINK you know all the moves but I promise you there are levels and nuances that they know that even good amateurs do not know.
It might be comforting as an amateur to think you have all the same knowledge as them but you really don't. Not YOU specifically because of course I have NO idea what you do or don't know but if I had to bet I'd say that most high level pros still know a lot more than you even as good as you play. Wouldn't be the first bet I lost.
John, your hypothetical situations, and potential player/amateur matchups, and their corresponding dollar amounts, are nothing short of hilarious !..But you do come up with some interesting scenarios..
However, even at a DCC, or EXPO tournament, you would be VERY hard pressed to accumulate all the pros and amateurs, and get them together, at the same time, to prove (or dis-prove) your never ending theorie's, which nobody (but you) gives a sh*t about anyway !..Unless of course, you staked BOTH sides !
John, your time would be better spent figuring out a way to trap poor 'pool dummy' Lou, WITHOUT all the exotic schemes your hyper-active mind can come up with !..You have intimated, he is not too smart anyway !..You and Lou are both over 21,..For Chrissake, just match up a f-ing game, find a $$$ amount you're both comfortable with, and f-ing PLAY !..Trust me it ain't rocket surgery, and its kinda fun !...I been doin' it all my life, and I ain't broke yet !..:wink:
The Dickster
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