Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

Vernon Elliot, who was a master on the bar table.

CreeDo said:
Probably pushing to a jump was less productive in the days before jump cues.
It's definitely common at the pro 9b and 10b events. But maybe it wasn't in the days of rollout 9b.
Full cue jumping is tricky even if Earl makes it look easy.

I think the idea was to bait someone into a tough but plausible shot, not put them in a position
where the shot is completely unattractive.
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I gave Weldon Rogers the 5/7 and the break on a bar table, he played one handed and I played two. The only way I could beat him was to roll out to jump shots, he couldn't let me shoot them so he re rolled out to another shot (putting us both on 1 foul). The strategy playing Two Foul on the bar table is MANY times more than "one foul" and the luck factor is reduced drastically as well.

This was a disadvantage because rolling out IS a disadvantage when playing an accomplished player. My "inner" game learned the intricacies of Two Shot Shoot Out from Vernon Elliot, who was a master playing "two shot" on the bar table.

I beat him out of $3000.00 that night, then another top player tried to win at that game and lost because they didn't know and utilize the same strategy. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'
 
The Game has always been my inner teacher - it's taken me on an adventure

jhanso18 said:
I don't bash pro players I disagree with, and I don't jump on ANYONE'S band wagon. If CJ want's to play here, I'm all for it. The problem I have with CJ is that he only ever seems to want to play his game. I'll play any game, although my opinions don't classify as a game, and they're not for sale.

CJ seems to only address posts he wants to, fine. He seems to only start a new thread or respond to one when he has something he wants to promote/sell, not fine. (for me, atleast.) "]this is a hobby to me (as opposed to knitting or flower arranging ;) ....
I think higher of CJ than that. He's a professional that actually acts as such. (This is a HUGE rarity for us pool peeps.)Thank You, I believe it's important to act professionally if called "a professional".

I like the idea of what CJ CAN bring to the table here. Some people will say I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but I can honestly say that I want him here more. I want him to be an active member here in more than his current promotional capacity." I will start posting more if you want me to, I like keeping it on a moderate level normally.

Sorry if this seems like a big bash on CJ, but it's been mentioned by SEVERAL posters, and I think most of us feel this way. CJ CAN DO FAR MORE! I will do more in the future....I always thought "less is more," but we can shift into "more is more". ;)

The game isn't my teacher, but it is my favorite game. If we ever meet, I will ACTUALLY play you. Maybe SBE next year after you play Lou, you can recoup a little from me. Assuming I make it there. "]The Game has always been my inner teacher, it's done more for me than I could ever describe in words....it's given me freedom, creativity and introduced me to thousands upon thousands of interesting people world wide.....and I AM eternally grateful.

All the best,
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I'm glad pool is your favorite game, I really like it as well. :thumbup:
 
There was a period of time that players pushed out to jump shots in two shot foul. Earl and a few others started jumping full balls and the rest of the world had to catch up. The best way to stop an opponent from rolling out to the jump shot was to be able to jump a full ball.

After we all learned to jump a ball, most players stopped rolling out to them. It took a couple of years, but it did happen to me. Dave Yeager was as good a jumper as I've ever seen. He would follow or draw on his jumps like the obstructing ball wasn't there.
He rolled out to the jump quite a bit. If you let him shoot it, you usually sat for awhile. :grin-square:

As an aside, I've noticed the newer (full size) cues aren't too good for jumping. The only cue I've found that's worth a darn is a cheap McD with a hard tip. Any ideas about that?

Best,
Mike
 
How to change the whole scenario of the "profit/loss" of the upcoming shot.

Mikjary said:
There was a period of time that players pushed out to jump shots in two shot foul. Earl and a few others started jumping full balls and the rest of the world had to catch up. The best way to stop an opponent from rolling out to the jump shot was to be able to jump a full ball.

After we all learned to jump a ball, most players stopped rolling out to them. It took a couple of years, but it did happen to me. Dave Yeager was as good a jumper as I've ever seen. He would follow or draw on his jumps like the obstructing ball wasn't there.
He rolled out to the jump quite a bit. If you let him shoot it, you usually sat for awhile. :grin-square:

As an aside, I've noticed the newer (full size) cues aren't too good for jumping. The only cue I've found that's worth a darn is a cheap McD with a hard tip. Any ideas about that?

Best,
Mike
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I always though the old Meucci's jumped the ball the best. I had one for a couple years when in my early 20s and I could jump a full ball with a "mud ball" on the bar table. I can't do that now with the current cloth, maybe that was the key, the older cloth.

Generally when someone would roll out to a jump shot I'd move the cue ball a quarter of an inch to change the shot slightly.....this was another special strategy of TWO SHOT that many didn't "real eyes" or completely understand......you could always alter the shots slightly and change the whole scenario of the "profit/loss" (percentage) of the upcoming shot.
 
JB Cases said:
In this case painting by the numbers is way harder than you beloved 14.1.
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:)

Get mad, Barton! Grit your teeth! Grrr!! Afterall, you need to channel your emotions for the upcoming match, so that you can keep focus beyond your normal mode of blindly shooting at balls in rotation.

:p ;)

-Sean
 
CJ Wiley said:
My question is "how would we know if there weren't, because possibilities by definition can't be measured".... it's a nonsensible judgement. After all, every possibility starts with an idea, how can we measure an idea in One Pocket?

"infinitely more strategic opportunities"? Can you specifically name or describe 5 of them that can be used as an example?
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I shall interrupt my response to your other post, (Re; Puckett) to answer this one, as it is much easier and more timely ! ...Talk about "non-sensible" statements,...You have broken new ground !..Your illogical challenge, is not at all realistic, or feasible..There are truly "infinite" scenario's in BOTH games..But, to put ideas, imagination, strategies, etc... into words, is not something either one of us, has time to do !

Speaking of Utley, I wish he were still around, to give his input as to which game is more difficult to master !...He would be the first to tell you, you are "full of beans" AGAIN ! (or is it still)..The only way to resolve this situation that YOU, and only YOU, are so sure you can 'prove' would be this way !

Lets take a poll of the top player's, who are familiar with BOTH games (9 ball & One Pocket) and let them each cast "ONE" vote, as to which game is more demanding, and harder to master.. I'm guessing there are probably only about 50 to 75 player's, who would fit this criteria, and I think we BOTH know who they are !..I would be willing to wager, that that the overwhelming majority, will choose one pocket !

Obviously, I'm not talking about "one pocket illiterates", Like Archer, Dechaine, or YOU, who detest one pocket !...I'm talking about guys like JJ, Buddy, Incardone, Duell, Efren, Alex, Busty, etc....Guys who have been around long enough, and have played BOTH games enough to make an informed decision !

I honestly believe, (with an age restriction, of say 50) a poll here on AZB, would yield very similar results, as a poll, taken at OnePocket.org...And I think you know how badly that would turn out for you !

I must warn you, you are about to be demoted to "Wil-ey Coyote" status again..."Dweeb" is just too polite, and not descriptive enough !..:D

The RoadRunner,....... is back !

PS..You may want to hold your response, 'til after I reply to your 'Puckett' post..You just might look a little, well, er, um, 'foolish' (or dweeby :p)

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we don't play it as well as Scott Frost, we do play it ok.

SJDinPHX said:
Obviously, I'm not talking about "one pocket illiterates", Like Archer, Dechaine, or YOU, who detest one pocket !.

View attachment 301144
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You are in "fantasy land" yet again. I actually like one pocket and have been playing it here in Ft. Worth every week with a plethora of opponents. I'm also gambling at the game and although we don't play it as well as Scott Frost, we do play it ok.......I will give yourself 9/7 if you're ever sober enough to play pool again. ;) Just kidding, I know you're sober enough to play every day, and SHD, feel good about yourself again.

I will also play any of the guys on your list on the 5/10 table the game of one pocket and I promise to enjoy every boring shot. ;) One pocket's really not a boring game, it's just represented by you.....and I'm sure you are a very exciting person whom ever you are.

'PS: Buddy's the only one on your list that's even come close to playing as much 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as I have.....I doubt if a couple of them have ever even played the game ie: Efren, Buste, C Deuel - in the Philippines they play rotation by different rules BUT NOT "one foul ball in hand" - FYI
 
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CJ Wiley said:
My question is "how would we know if there weren't, because possibilities by definition can't be measured".... it's a nonsensible judgement. After all, every possibility starts with an idea, how can we measure an idea in One Pocket?

"infinitely more strategic opportunities"? Can you specifically name or describe 5 of them that can be used as an example?

Obviously you can't shoot anything in the side pockets in One Pocket, but you can in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and that's not an unusual situation, to bank, cut or carom balls in the side pocket......what shot doesn't come up in TWO SHOT that comes up in One Pocket?

The entire discussion is about 'Two Shot Shoot Out' being more strategically different and the "strategic opportunities" were not mentioned......although now that you have let's compare the two.

You name 5 strategic opportunities in One Pocket and I'll, in turn name 5 that are strategically more difficult - name the toughest ones you know in One Pocket......that should be easy enough if there's really an "infinite" amount.
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You would never have to dig a ball out of your opponents pocket playing 2 foul.That came from Tony Fargo.

Tony also said there was more moves in Two shot shoot out,than in 1 pocket.He claims there is a learning curve in 1 pocket,but once you know what the right shot is,it's a pretty repetitiuos game.
 
players that have actually played a LOT of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' (Like Tony Fargo)

Rusty C said:
You would never have to dig a ball out of your opponents pocket playing 2 foul.That came from Tony Fargo.

Tony also said there was more moves in Two shot shoot out,than in 1 pocket.He claims there is a learning curve in 1 pocket,but once you know what the right shot is,it's a pretty repetitive game.
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That's an interesting point by Tony Fargo (who is a top notch One Pocket Player, Two Shot Shoot Out Player as well as one of the best Bank Pool Players in the World).

I will say there's situations in SHOOT OUT when the next ball is close to the pocket and you would make a "roll out" by combining another ball INTO that ball and it would spot (if you're playing all balls spot) or it would stay down and the roll out would be for the next ball in rotation.....if you're playing "all balls spot" and you're hooked on a ball hanging and don't want to "kick it" you can make that ball and follow in the OTHER ball and they both spot.

'Two Shot Shoot Out' at the highest echelon is an EXTREMELY difficult and strategically difficult game.....but, like anything else we can only recognize what we're familiar with.

The players that have actually played a LOT of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' (Like Tony Fargo) will agree with my position that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is strategically more difficult and the moves/shots are more challenging.

If someone would have taken me up on betting on this I will assure you they would want to back out after 10 minutes on video. The shots and situations that I would set up are FAR more advanced strategically and more demanding to execute. They would see very quickly that they wouldn't have a chance, this is just one of those things in life that "seems" one way, but is actually another.......and such is "The Game" as well. :D

It's actually not even close when you see the two showcased side by side......of course there's 6 pockets in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' to defend against and in One Pocket there's just one....that goes for the offensive aspect as well. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, I met U.J. Puckett in Ft Worth about 30 + years ago...He had a segment on 60 Minutes that was one of their most popular (of the time) about his times on the Road as a Road Player/Hustler and people really liked his adventures...
I'm fortunate to have caught the last 12 years of it and lived to tell the tales along with players like... <--(insert the usual "player names" that you feel the need to "drop", at least once per thread ! (often followed, by how bad you beat them) :rolleyes:)
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Mr. Wil-e, Nice informative post, about U.J !...I had to edit it though, to leave room for my response, which will give you a better line on U.J and I.

Utley was my first victim, upon my arrival in Texas !...In fact, our mutual friend's, Alfie and Jack Taylor, were part of the corporation backing him !..As Alfie will tell you, it did not fare well for them..For your further viewing pleasure, a tiny bit of the event is captured for posterity, on
page 32, of Shots, Moves & Strategies !

Puckett and I, went on to become good friends. In fact, as a side note, he had sent me into his joint (on S. Hemphill) in Ft.Worth, to catch a local go-off there..It just happened to be the exact day JFK was assassinated 30 miles away !.. Needless to say, everything shut down that day !.. We made several road trips together, and always had a ball !.. How could you not love the guy ? He was, in one word.."unique" !

I 'real-eyes', from your lofty perch, you barely knew me !.. But, to maybe remedy that a little, let me point you to a link on Freddy the Beard's web site...He has a great collection of 'war stories' there, and a few of them are mine !..Take a peek, and you'll know me a little better ! My stories are #5 and #7 -> http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?p=453

I truly enjoy our kibitzing, and I love swapping 'brags' and stories !..I only hope you will come to accept me as a (much older) peer !..I'm sure we coulda made billions, on the road together !..:thumbup:

Cheers

PS.."Brag Score"...Wil-e Coyote--357...RoadRunner--3 ! :D
 
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sfleinen said:
:)

Get mad, Barton! Grit your teeth! Grrr!! Afterall, you need to channel your emotions for the upcoming match, so that you can keep focus beyond your normal mode of blindly shooting at balls in rotation.

:p ;)

-Sean
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:-) nah, I was just messing with you because I knew you'd get your dander up if I said any pool game is tougher than 14.1.

If you really knew me Sean you would know that right now I am as calm as I have ever been.

People who blindly shoot balls don't win much at any game. It's yin/yang when your only choice is one ball that MUST be addressed that's one type of task and when you are faced with multiple targets that's another type of task. Both equally hard depending on circumstance.
 
from the Golden Temple of Japan to the Pyramids in Mexico......we're lucky

SJDinPHX said:
Mr. Wil-e, Nice informative post, about U.J !...I had to edit it though, to leave room for my response, which will give you a better line on U.J and I.

Utley was my first victim, upon my arrival in Texas !...In fact, our mutual friend's, Alfie and Jack Taylor, were part of the corporation backing him !..As Alfie will tell you, it did not fare well for them..For your further viewing pleasure, the a tiny bit of the event is captured for posterity, on page 32, of SM&S !

Puckett and I, went on to become good friends. In fact, as a side note, he had sent me into his joint (on S. Hemphill) in Ft.Worth, to catch a local go-off there..It just happened to be the exact day JFK was assassinated 30 miles away !.. Needless to say, everything shut down that day ! We made several road trips together, and always had a ball ! How could you not love the guy ? He was, in one word.."unique" !

I 'real-eyes', from your lofty perch, you barely knew me !.. But, to maybe remedy that a little, let me point you to a link on Freddy the Beard's web site...He has a great collection of 'war stories' there, and a few of them are mine !..Take a peek, and you'll know me a little better ! My stories are #5 and #7 -> http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?p=453

I truly enjoy our kibitzing, and I love swapping 'brags' and stories !..I only hope you will come to accept me as a (much older) peer !..I'm sure we coulda made billions, on the road together !..:thumbup:

Cheers

PS.."Brag Score"...Wil-e Coyote--357...RoadRunner--3 ! :D
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You certainly knew the old school hustlers, gamblers and Tush Hogs around the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. We first came to Dallas to gamble when I was 16 so basically caught the tail end of some of their lives ......Bobby "Cotton" has a lot about them in his book 'Confessions of a Pool Hustler'.....in those days there was a lot of "interesting" people hanging around the pool halls....it was the "who's who" of the underworld in some cases, especially at Rusty's on NW HWY.

My partners and I had rapport with those old gangster type men, and admired their "power"....although looking back we were in a lot of dangerous situations and didn't "real eyes" it...just young and naive about how brutal the world could really be..... guess in may ways we weren't scared of dying, it was living we had to be concerned with....and it was terrifying at times,. ;)

One rainy night I was in the "wrong part of town" and got jumped, robbed and stabbed twice by 3 assailants.....I managed to get away when the store owner came out and yelled "WHAT's GOING ON?!?!?" - which gave me enough time to get in my car and speed away over a curb and God knows what else......

I was bleeding profusely out of my head and gut, but managed to drive recklessly to a store down the road a mile or so.....I fell out of the car, stumbling to the store window, hot blood and rain streaming down my face, neck and the world blurring like a spinning maze of confusion.........a man peered out of the bars of the window, gasp and raced around to open the door......

He let me in to sit on a small, miniature, "picnic table" and I passed out.....the ambulance drivers woke me, putting me on a stretcher......as they were putting me in the ambulance I looked up and ask weakly "AM I going to die?" They looked at each other, quickly and responded "we don't think so!"......I sighed in relief and mumbled "good!!!".....and passed back out (I wasn't going to go to sleep if they told me I was going to die.....I wanted to see how this "movie" ended.

Many years later I "Real Eyesed" this incident was the best thing that had ever happened to me, because it led me to the martial arts and some people that had a huge impact on the rest of my life...."Things" work in mysterious ways sometimes don't they? I'm sure you have a lot of these type stories of things that appeared to be traject, and ended up being essential in your life.


Respect, SHD, Sir.....I'm sure we would have done fine on the road.....very fine indeed.

I really like Jack Tailor, but Weldon told me that Jack was a much better story teller (and tush hog) than a road partner. ;)

Alfie on the other hand I've traveled around the world with, from Aspen, to the Golden Temple of Japan and the Pyramids in Mexico......we're lucky to have met a lot of exceptional people.....and lived through it. :D I'll always believe the Game was protecting AND watching over us. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'
 
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How nice is this.

Looks like we can get along.
 

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This is the spirit of competition and without this spirit the game withers.

JB Cases said:
:-) nah, I was just messing with you because I knew you'd get your dander up if I said any pool game is tougher than 14.1.

If you really knew me Sean you would know that right now I am as calm as I have ever been.

People who blindly shoot balls don't win much at any game. It's yin/yang when your only choice is one ball that MUST be addressed that's one type of task and when you are faced with multiple targets that's another type of task. Both equally hard depending on circumstance.
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Whatever pocket billiard game someone chooses there should be ONE target, like all other games ie: "Rim" in Basketball, "Cup or Hole" in Golf, "Goal" in Hockey, "End Zone" in Football, etc....there's also one in shooting rifles/handguns, archery and darts.

When there's 6 possible targets and you can miss the one you're aiming at and make it somewhere else it loses respect right away.

CALL POCKETS in 9 Ball and incorporate the 'Two Shot Shoot Out' rules.....it turns an otherwise silly game (using one foul ball in hand rules) into a tremendously strategic game that accomplishes what Pocket Billiards is supposed to do.....be a mental/physical sparring match between to people....and let the best person win.

This is the spirit of competition and without this spirit the game withers.....and someday will die the death of obscurity. 'The Inner Game is Our Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
That's an interesting point by Tony Fargo (who is a top notch One Pocket Player, Two Shot Shoot Out Player as well as one of the best Bank Pool Players in the World.

I will say there's situations in SHOOT OUT when the next ball is close to the pocket and you would make a "roll out" by combining another ball INTO that ball and it would spot #if you're playing all balls spot# or it would stay down and the roll out would be for the next ball in rotation if you're playing "all balls spot" and you're hooked on a ball hanging and don't want to "kick it" you can make that ball and follow in the OTHER ball and they both spot.

'Two Shot Shoot Out' at the highest echelon is an EXTREMELY difficult and strategically difficult game, but, like anything else we can only recognize what we're familiar with.

If someone would have taken me up on betting on this I will assure you they would want to back out after 10 minutes on video. The shots and situations that I would set up are FAR more advanced strategically and more demanding to execute# They would see very quickly that they wouldn't have a chance, this is just one of those things in life that "seems" one way, but is actually another..and such is "The Game" as well :D

It's actually not even close when you see the two showcased side by side, of course there's 6 pockets in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' to defend against and in One Pocket there's just one, that goes for the offensive aspect as well# 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'
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Dear Mr. Coyote, (you have earned your demotion from "dweeb", by the above post)

I feel the need to clean up some old business !..Screw trying to be brief, as you have never allowed it to hamper YOUR 'phsyco babblings' !..Besides, WE are the only one's who actually read these exchanges ! (and I ain't too sure about YOU)..I shall again try to simplify things for you...Your comments, (taken from your above post) will be in RED, my responses will be in BLUE !..Please try
to keep up !

You;.."That's an interesting point by Tony Fargo, who is a top notch One Pocket Player, Two Shot Shoot Out Player as well as one of the best Bank Pool Players in the World. 'Two Shot Shoot Out' at the highest echelon is an EXTREMELY difficult and strategically difficult game, but, like anything else we can only recognize what we're familiar with.
The players that have actually played a LOT of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' Like Tony Fargo, will agree with my position that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is strategically more difficult and the moves/shots are more challenging".

Me;..Well, you have taken one of your RARE supportive posts, and used it to crank up your rhetoric, on the "difficulty" of playing one of the easiest games on a pool table !..2 foul 9 ball, is NOT 'rocket science', especially among two 'upper echelon' players !..A few simple maneuvers, that we all know,..and its GAME OVER !..Avg. length of 9ball game, is 5 mins., or less !..(can you deny that ?)..
..I would say that even 8 ball, requires far more stategy !

Also, you are basically insulting, both my time in the pits, and my knowledge of both games.. Truth be known, I have probably played more tough action, at BOTH games, (1P, and 2SF-9B).. then both you and Mr. Fargo combined ! (but then, according to you, I only played with [sic] banger's) :o

You;.."If someone would have taken me up on betting on this I will assure you they would want to back out after 10 minutes on video# The shots and situations that I would set up are FAR more advanced strategically and more demanding to execute# They would see very quickly that they wouldn't have a chance, this is just one of those things in life that "seems" one way, but is actually another."

Me;..Give me a freaking break..You chose to ignore my offer of a poll, consisting of "top echelon" players (familiar with BOTH games) then you come with this BS again !..You are not only insulting ME again, but everyone on the forum (with a brain).. I "real eyes" your 'superiority complex', is such that you will NEVER come to your senses, and admit you are (gasp) WRONG !..Mr. Coyote, there are not enough ACME products in the world, to allow you to catch the RoadRunner on this issue !

BEEP, BEEP !

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WAIT a minute -

- WAIT A MINUTE!!!!

are you, THE Dick McMorran, HALL OF FAMER, for ONE POCKET?


my apologies, Sir - i didn't "real eyes"
.
 
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