2 shot gives te the 7 and gets same from 1p
what's your opinion of the difficulty or expertise req'd to play 2 shot vs 1p
GL in your upcoming match
Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM
- Thread starter HawaiianEye
- Start date
2 shot gives te the 7 and gets same from 1p
what's your opinion of the difficulty or expertise req'd to play 2 shot vs 1p
GL in your upcoming match
exactly right
You are exactly right about that.
Kicking to hit a ball in 9 ball is turning the cue ball loose. Unless I'm trying to pocket a ball on a ticky or mirror image shot, I probably won't have a lot of control of where the cue ball will end up. Two shot gives me another option.
I've rolled out to kicks in two shot roll out before. I was reasonably sure where I was leaving the cue ball for a safe or I was going for the pot. Occasionally a bad roll out has left me where I can't hit the object ball (don't laugh until you play enough roll out) by me or my opponent. Then you're jumping or kicking anyway.
Lots more banking in two shot, too. If you can't bank or cut, guess what?Long stroke shots and shooting jacked up or off of the rail are the norm. Jacked up and straight in can be a real pisser eight feet away!
Best,
Mike
You are exactly right about that.
switch shots, and trick their opponent into divulging their true speed or lack of it
An advanced "TWO SHOT" player can bait and switch shots, and trick their opponent into divulging their true speed (or lack of it).
After three strategic roll outs you can tell a LOT about a player's knowledge of percentages......playing shots that don't have "two way" potential will bet you busted playing an advanced players.....no matter what kind of "weight" you are getting.
An advanced "TWO SHOT" player can bait and switch shots, and trick their opponent into divulging their true speed (or lack of it).
After three strategic roll outs you can tell a LOT about a player's knowledge of percentages......playing shots that don't have "two way" potential will bet you busted playing an advanced players.....no matter what kind of "weight" you are getting.
My opinion is this:
2 shot has a LOT more strategy in it. It's not as simple as run and push.
1 foul to me is a pure shooter's game with not much strategy and way way more luck involved. Even the very kickers know that a lot of the time they still have to get fortunate to get a good result after a kick.
That said 1 foul has indeed elevated the overall skill set by making people have to learn to kick and jump and even bank better than ever before.
As I remember it, and keep in mind I was a teenager when I learned to play 2 foul nine ball, there wasn't a lot of kicking in that game. People didn't push to kicks very often. They would push to jump shots though.
So I guess my answer is I don't know. I didn't play it at a high enough level to learn or appreciate all the intricacies. I do remember that it was always a battle to get the first makeable shot and when you were presented with it you pretty much had to go for it.
Someone like John Brumback would be much tougher to play TWO SHOT than many of top 10
You're on the right track, except for the banking observation. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there is a much higher priority to bank well. Someone like John Brumback would be much tougher to play TWO SHOT than many of top 10 players in the USA. It's not necessary making all the banks, it's the ability to bank the shot, play shape on the next ball AND have a good chance of getting safe if you miss ....ALL at the same time.
You're on the right track, except for the banking observation. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there is a much higher priority to bank well. Someone like John Brumback would be much tougher to play TWO SHOT than many of top 10 players in the USA. It's not necessary making all the banks, it's the ability to bank the shot, play shape on the next ball AND have a good chance of getting safe if you miss ....ALL at the same time.
John, I have broken down your key points, and shall I give you my unbiased opinion of them..! (for free)
(1)..Any idiot knows that !..(even CJ)
(2)..See opinion #1.
(3)..Correction John, you never really learned to play any pool game correctly !..Its a good thing you 'learned' how to work
......with leather !
(4)..People NEVER pushed out for jump shots !..Jumping was not an accepted strategy until Texas Express became
......the norm. That would probably be why there was no such thing as a "Jump Cue" in those days !
(5)..Finally, an absolutely TRUE statement !..So John, why did you waste our valuable time, pontificating on a subject that
......Lou Figueroa knows so much better then you ? (or CJ)
SJD (formerly, the Roadrunner)
PS..If I'm still around for your one pocket "match, debaucle, slaughter", (pick one) with Lou..I will take "Louser" for FIVE
......(5) CASES of Yukon Jack !..(can't find a smiley face, for 'seriously')..:thumbup:
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John, I have broken down your key points, and shall I give you my unbiased opinion of them..! (for free)
(1)..Any idiot knows that !..(even CJ)
(2)..See opinion #1.
(3)..Correction John, you never really learned to play any pool game correctly !..Its a good thing you 'learned' how to work
......with leather !
(4)..People NEVER pushed out for jump shots !..Jumping was not an accepted strategy until Texas Express became
......the norm. That would probably be why there was no such thing as a "Jump Cue" in those days !
(5)..Finally, an absolutely TRUE statement !..So John, why did you waste our valuable time, pontificating on a subject that
......Lou Figueroa knows so much better then you ? (or CJ)
SJD (formerly, the Roadrunner)
PS..If I'm still around for your one pocket "match, debaucle, slaughter", (pick one) with Lou..I will take "Louser" for FIVE
......(5) CASES of Yukon Jack !..(can't find a smiley face, for 'seriously')..:thumbup:
You are absolutely 100% wrong about people pushing to jump shots. They did it long before jump cues ever came on the scene. It was Why all us in the pool room spent time learning to jump with a full cue.
That much I am 100% sure of.
I don't know what Yukon Jack costs but you have a bet. You are absolutely right about it being a slaughter though.
I learned to jump very early also John, and I was pretty good at it too !..But, in my day it was rarely over more than a partial ball, unless it was a trick shot !..I do know you like to argue, but, let me say again, one more time for you...
..."IT WAS NOT AN ACCEPTED, OR OFTEN USED ROLL-OUT OR SAFETY STRATEGY, IN THE DAYS OF TWO SHOT FOUL 9BALL"
.....If anyone 'pushed out' for a jump shot, it was (99% of the time) NOT on purpose !
If you can find ANYONE who says it was, (including CJ) I will be nice and not bet on Lou, with you ? PS..Yukon is about $18 per bottle (12 to a case) = $216..Shipping from NJ (or China) would be prohibitive, so we'll just convert to cash..@ $200 per game !..(unless you are askeered, we can make it by the set only, for $1000 ?)..:wink:
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I learned to jump very early also John, and I was pretty good at it too !..But, in my day it was rarely over more than a partial ball, unless it was a trick shot !..I do know you like to argue, but, let me say again, one more time for you...
..."IT WAS NOT AN ACCEPTED, OR OFTEN USED SAFETY STRATEGY, IN THE DAYS OF TWO SHOT FOUL NINE BALL" !...If anyone 'pushed out' for a jump shot, it was (99% of the time) NOT on purpose !
PS..Yukon is about $18 per bottle (12 to a case) = $216..Shipping from NJ (or China) would be prohibitive, so we'll just convert to cash..@ $200 per game !..(unless you are askeered, we can make it by the set only, for $1000 ?)..:wink:
Well I don't know anything about your day. In my day which was the 80s in Oklahoma at Jamacia Joe's poolroom we routinely pushed to jump shots. Or I should say those who could jump pushed to jump shots knowing that those who couldn't jump (me) wouldn't be able to take the shot.
Granted we were all a bunch of bangers so we had no clue what the high level pros like you would do since we never played them and there were not big matches in our room.
I am more than happy to bet another $1000 cash on the set with Lou-ser. Both of you are in for a lesson.
John, It seems a bit odd, that you always clarify your "Banger Status", and then proceed to argue your point anyway !..Is that normal ? Maybe you are "Sammy reincarnated"..
John, It seems a bit odd, that you always clarify your "Banger Status", and then proceed to argue your point anyway !..Is that normal ? Maybe you are "Sammy reincarnated"..
You said nobody pushed to jump shots. I said they did in my experience which is 100% true. Do you need people to provide sworn testimony to this?
I clarified that in the pool room I learned to play in, one of them, that us bangers did push to jump shots. I said since we weren't privy to high level action we wouldn't have known if the top players ever pushed to jump shots or not.
Although I would go out on limb and bet that if we asked Strickland if he ever pushed to a jump shot in the two-foul era I bet he would say he did. Bet a bottle of Jack and I will get the answer directly from him for you.
What is up with you? You're very grumpy about all this. All this arguing about a dead game that isn't coming back. I know CJ wants it too but I don't think it will.
It's like I said 500 posts ago, no one is getting a trophy or more money because one game is harder than the other game. Arguing vehemently and venomously about whether 1 foul or 2 foul is harder is just silly. Whichever game is being played for the cheese is harder because that's the arena that the fight is in.
Even if CJ proves his point that 2 foul is harder it ultimately doesn't matter unless he really is able to resurrect it and then I suppose everyone will have to adapt to that game.
like Buddy Hall I'm simply stating the facts about each game
My points haven't been that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is necessarily "harder," it's simply more strategic.......and I have indicated that it's at least 10 times more strategic than 'One Foul Ball in Hand' Rules.
I'm not sure how to prove that one game is harder than the next, but I can prove that SHOOT OUT is more strategic than ONE FOUL rules......and anyone that that's really played the two games at a high level will know this is a fact.
Buddy Hall has been saying this for many years and he obviously plays ONE FOUL very, very well. I actually do too, and when I was playing every tournament in 95 with ALL the best players in the world I never finished less than 9th place........the entire year playing ONE FOUL....so personally I play all rules well enough to win against "the field," and like Buddy Hall I'm simply stating the facts about each game as I've experienced them on the table.
And yes, rolling out to "jump shots" is a common strategy, however, between champion players it's not going to be as common as one might think....of course there's no "jump cues" allowed in SHOOT OUT.
My points haven't been that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is necessarily "harder," it's simply more strategic.......and I have indicated that it's at least 10 times more strategic than 'One Foul Ball in Hand' Rules.
I'm not sure how to prove that one game is harder than the next, but I can prove that SHOOT OUT is more strategic than ONE FOUL rules......and anyone that that's really played the two games at a high level will know this is a fact.
Buddy Hall has been saying this for many years and he obviously plays ONE FOUL very, very well. I actually do too, and when I was playing every tournament in 95 with ALL the best players in the world I never finished less than 9th place........the entire year playing ONE FOUL....so personally I play all rules well enough to win against "the field," and like Buddy Hall I'm simply stating the facts about each game as I've experienced them on the table.
And yes, rolling out to "jump shots" is a common strategy, however, between champion players it's not going to be as common as one might think....of course there's no "jump cues" allowed in SHOOT OUT.
I was going to do another point by point breakdown for you, but I was afraid you would think,
I thought, you were T.S.A.A.. And we wouldn't want that, now would we ?..:boring2: :boring2: :boring2:
Terminally--Stupid--At--Arguing !..:sorry:
One Foul is hamburger, Two Shot Shoot Out is Filet Mignon.
Respect......these guys would tell you the same thing about Two Shot Shoot Out compared to One Foul Ball in Hand rules.......One Foul is hamburger, Two Shot Shoot Out is Filet Mignon.
Respect......these guys would tell you the same thing about Two Shot Shoot Out compared to One Foul Ball in Hand rules.......One Foul is hamburger, Two Shot Shoot Out is Filet Mignon.
Respect......these guys would tell you the same thing about Two Shot Shoot Out compared to One Foul Ball in Hand rules.......One Foul is hamburger, Two Shot Shoot Out is Filet Mignon.
THEM ARE SOME OLD LIONS THERE!
CJ and the rest of us are pups....
Ken
60 Minutes TV - was one of their most popular (of the time) about his pool playing
Yes, I met U.J. Puckett in Ft Worth about 30 + years ago. I was down in Texas with Dalton Leong and we ran into him in one of the pool rooms that he frequented.
He had a segment on 60 Minutes that was one of their most popular (of the time) about his times on the Road as a Road Player/Hustler and people really liked his adventures (as told in numerous stories). CLICK HERE FOR THE UJ PUCKETT 60 MIN SEGMENT
Nothing's changed, the general public still really like the stories of the Road Hustling/Gambling days and are eager to hear what it was really like. I'm fortunate to have caught the last 12 years of it and lived to tell the tales along with players like Omaha John Shuput, "Surfer Rod", Weldon Rogers, Burle G. Robert "Cotton", Buddy Hall, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland and many more. 60 MINUTES SEGMENT - UJ PUCKETT PART II CLICK HERE
The Road Playing days are dead and gone much like the "mob days," and like 'The Sopranos', and 'The Godfather' they will live on forever through the tales and confessions of the Road Players.
RIP - Luther, Jimmy, Wade,Grady, Ronnie, Jersey Red, and U.J. - you guys are gone, but will always be remembered.
Yes, I met U.J. Puckett in Ft Worth about 30 + years ago. I was down in Texas with Dalton Leong and we ran into him in one of the pool rooms that he frequented.
He had a segment on 60 Minutes that was one of their most popular (of the time) about his times on the Road as a Road Player/Hustler and people really liked his adventures (as told in numerous stories). CLICK HERE FOR THE UJ PUCKETT 60 MIN SEGMENT
Nothing's changed, the general public still really like the stories of the Road Hustling/Gambling days and are eager to hear what it was really like. I'm fortunate to have caught the last 12 years of it and lived to tell the tales along with players like Omaha John Shuput, "Surfer Rod", Weldon Rogers, Burle G. Robert "Cotton", Buddy Hall, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland and many more. 60 MINUTES SEGMENT - UJ PUCKETT PART II CLICK HERE
The Road Playing days are dead and gone much like the "mob days," and like 'The Sopranos', and 'The Godfather' they will live on forever through the tales and confessions of the Road Players.
RIP - Luther, Jimmy, Wade,Grady, Ronnie, Jersey Red, and U.J. - you guys are gone, but will always be remembered.
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Probably pushing to a jump was less productive in the days before jump cues.
It's definitely common at the pro 9b and 10b events. But maybe it wasn't in the days of rollout 9b.
Full cue jumping is tricky even if Earl makes it look easy.
I think the idea was to bait someone into a tough but plausible shot, not put them in a position
where the shot is completely unattractive.
It's definitely common at the pro 9b and 10b events. But maybe it wasn't in the days of rollout 9b.
Full cue jumping is tricky even if Earl makes it look easy.
I think the idea was to bait someone into a tough but plausible shot, not put them in a position
where the shot is completely unattractive.
Late Edit; ..Excellent assessment Mr CreeDo ! :thumbup:
I have been agreeing with CJ, (and Buddy) all along. I think 2-shot foul (original rules) is a MUCH better game, than TE--BIH.
John B. may be the only one that hasn't caught that yet !...But its STILL just "paint by the numbers" 9-ball ! :boring2:
One Pocket allows for 'infinitely' more strategic opportunities, and imaginative decisions, then ANY kind of 9ball, EVER HAD ! Anyone who doesn't 'real eyes' that, is destined to be a 'nerdy, dweeb' forever ! (at least regarding pool
)I shall abandon all efforts, to show said dweeb the obvious truth, as he, (like John Barton) appear to be blinded by their own unrealistic, and short-sighted beliefs !.. I wish the one 'dweeb', would engage in a conversation with the guy he keeps bringing up..Mr. Hall !..As much as Buddy loved 9 ball..He eventually saw the light, and learned the BEST game on a pool table !..:thumbup:
You''ll notice he was also wise enough to skip right over "no action" 14.1..
boring2: :boring2: :boring2 and went straight to One Pocket, where the action was !.. And it took him the last half of his career, to learn to become proficient at it ! PS..If the 'dweeb' would just listen to Buddy, he'd find out it takes a little more than '3 weeks' to learn the game ! (unless of course, you are happy with being 'mediocre' at it)..
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PPS..I assume the word 'dweeb', is less offensive than 'Coyote' ! :wink:
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Can you specifically name or describe 5 of them?
My question is "how would we know if there weren't, because possibilities by definition can't be measured".... it's a nonsensible judgement. After all, every possibility starts with an idea, how can we measure an idea in One Pocket?
"infinitely more strategic opportunities"? Can you specifically name or describe 5 of them that can be used as an example?
Obviously you can't shoot anything in the side pockets in One Pocket, but you can in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and that's not an unusual situation, to bank, cut or carom balls in the side pocket......what shot doesn't come up in TWO SHOT that comes up in One Pocket?
The entire discussion is about 'Two Shot Shoot Out' being more strategically different and the "strategic opportunities" were not mentioned......although now that you have let's compare the two.
You name 5 strategic opportunities in One Pocket and I'll, in turn name 5 that are strategically more difficult - name the toughest ones you know in One Pocket......that should be easy enough if there's really an "infinite" amount.
One Pocket allows for 'infinitely' more strategic opportunities, and imaginative decisions, then ANY kind of 9ball, EVER HAD ! Anyone who doesn't 'real eyes' that, is destined to be a 'nerdy, dweeb' forever ! (at least regarding pool
My question is "how would we know if there weren't, because possibilities by definition can't be measured".... it's a nonsensible judgement. After all, every possibility starts with an idea, how can we measure an idea in One Pocket?
"infinitely more strategic opportunities"? Can you specifically name or describe 5 of them that can be used as an example?
Obviously you can't shoot anything in the side pockets in One Pocket, but you can in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and that's not an unusual situation, to bank, cut or carom balls in the side pocket......what shot doesn't come up in TWO SHOT that comes up in One Pocket?
The entire discussion is about 'Two Shot Shoot Out' being more strategically different and the "strategic opportunities" were not mentioned......although now that you have let's compare the two.
You name 5 strategic opportunities in One Pocket and I'll, in turn name 5 that are strategically more difficult - name the toughest ones you know in One Pocket......that should be easy enough if there's really an "infinite" amount.