Pro's don't need that fancy $5000 crap to do well

[LC3]

When I started playing seriously, there was a guy who played with a rough one-piece house cue with a push-on tip - and won local tournaments with it.

My first good cue was a used Viking that I bought at a pool hall for $75. When I showed the resident killer my new cue, he hit a couple of balls with it and said I had made a good purchase and that it was the only cue I'd ever need. He was right, but I eventually replaced it with a custom cue and have since owned a few. I prefer plain janes. I like a nice piece of wood and excellent fit-and-finish; like a Swiss automatic watch or a good fountain pen, it entertains the mind.

 

[berlowmj]

Who customizes cues to player's physiology?

All the pro's use a very high class cue, I know they get them for free because they are sponsored, but is it really necessary? The idea that they are giving the smaller pool players is that you need a really expensive cue to be the best. I would love to see one of the pro's use a cheap Players cue or something, and just kick butt! I know they could, they just like all the expensive inlays and custom crap.

Feel free to disagree...

Permit me to humbly add the perspective of someone at the low end of the learning curve. Using the Indian & bow metaphor, the emphasis is on the Indian & the number of hours of drills, running balls, reducing the anxiety of competition by competing with intimidating players...

While vandals create extreme conditions by destroying tips & apprarently biting chunks out of shafts, warping them in the sun etc., I find it a rewarding measure of my progress to occasionally pick up a house cue & perform at progressively higher levels.

Familiarity with the cue also helps. For example, with a few ritualistic strokes of the cue butt, my hand now consistently falls into place with less consciousness & experimentation than with a strange cue.. Similarly, there is greater ease in applying English.

However, there are a number of issues I would like to see addressed. Are there custom cue makers who individualize cues around;

1. Observation of the player's basics eg. stance, stroke, grip,bridge...followed by observing the player perform a set of drills.

2. Ratio of slow/fast twitch muscle fibers as a consideration in deciding upon the cue's weight or other characteristics.

3. Idiosyncracies of the players body type which might be considered in designing the balance point of the cue or its length.

4. Body type- ectomoph, mesomorph, or endomorph

5. Tendencies toward brute strength vs flexibility or vice versa.

 

[TATE]

$5,000 cue? Just not enough stick.

All the pro's use a very high class cue, I know they get them for free because they are sponsored, but is it really necessary? The idea that they are giving the smaller pool players is that you need a really expensive cue to be the best. I would love to see one of the pro's use a cheap Players cue or something, and just kick butt! I know they could, they just like all the expensive inlays and custom crap.

Feel free to disagree...

A $5,000 cue isn't going to help your game. You really don't get a pop until you get to around $10,000. You pick up another ball or two at $20,000 but it stays pretty flat until about $50,000. After that, it's hard to say.

Chris

 

[bruin70]

All the pro's use a very high class cue, I know they get them for free because they are sponsored, but is it really necessary? The idea that they are giving the smaller pool players is that you need a really expensive cue to be the best. I would love to see one of the pro's use a cheap Players cue or something, and just kick butt! I know they could, they just like all the expensive inlays and custom crap.

Feel free to disagree...

you're not going to see it happen. every pro in ANY endeavor utilizes the best equipment available. why?,,,,because there IS a difference with finely crafted tools.

tell you what,,,,you go offer rodney morris the best house cue to play with and he'll hand that cue back to you in a mahattan minute.

 

[bandido]

What all I've seen in the posts here refers to the physical aspect of the game. Even using Efren as an example but of today's Efren. On his way up or even when he finally got there, Efren used a cue that was embellished and was considered a high-end instrument at the time and actually one of the more expensive ones. It is only when he's gotten to the top of the pool world that the embellishment of a cue didn't matter or of little importance. Although he did flaunt it at the start as "This is an American CUSTOM cue" and here in the Philippines American made, most specially custom, equals big bucks. The Shelby Cobra's of American cars.

I don't know if it's cultural but almost all high-level players here aspire to or get the best, in performance and looks, that they can afford. It is a given that players want the weight, balance point, length, taper, tip, wrap and hit that matches their style and this is all about the playability of the cue to their own personal preference. How the cue looks, according to ALL the pros here that I've dealt with, deals more with the mental aspect of the player. They want to look good and feel good. They want their opponent to see them as an accomplished player that can afford to arm themselves with the best weapon that they can afford (exceptional performer to be able to win the $$$). They want to portray this image of success and look good when on TV. Cue aesthetics, according to these Filipino Pro Pool Players, is about having the full package of "CONFIDENCE" in their physical abilities and on how they are seen and percieved by the other guys (opponents and viewers) and I agree with them.

 

[Jack Justis]

Hi Edwin,
What your saying is absolutely 100% correct. Player equipment is a matter of pride. If the players feels good about about his cue, case or whatever, it turns into a mental thing of having full confidence in his ability to win.

 

[NateSchoepf]

I think the most important things when buying a cue are

1. Do you like the hit
2. Do you think you are going to win if you use this cue
3. Do you think you look good using this cue

If you got all those then you have more confidence and therefore you will probably play much better.

I think the pro's have the same thing in mind.

I have sold a lot of cues to beginners and I give them a really nice aka expensive cue that hits great they shoot it but they don't like the looks then they pick out a cheaper cue they like the looks of and all of a sudden they are making balls and talking about how great it hits, even though it is a cheaper made cue.

 

[bandido]

Hi Edwin,
What your saying is absolutely 100% correct. Player equipment is a matter of pride. If the players feels good about about his cue, case or whatever, it turns into a mental thing of having full confidence in his ability to win.

That's why all the good to great players here want a Justis case. I want a Justis case but since I can't yet, I'm happy and content to see my close friends with Justis'. When my wards (and pro players who use my cues) eventually make it to the elite level I'll get them all Justis Custom cases and nothing less to protect their weapons and really make them look good.

 

[Flex]

i think its impossible to have a cue cost less than $300 that plays 100%, in other words $300 will get you a cue that plays good enough that you wont lose speed on your game.

Sorry, but I fail to see how a specific dollar amount, in this case $300, will guarantee you are getting a cue that will feel good, provide a good hit, and keep you from losing speed.

It's not so simple as that, IMHO. How can you seriously prove that an arbitrary $300 will achieve what you want?

My contention is that a good playing cue can be had for far less... It may take some time to find one, but what the heck. So what? And paying $300 or $400 or $500 or $1000 will not guarantee that you will be happy with a cue's playability.

Flex

 

[Flex]

you're not going to see it happen. every pro in ANY endeavor utilizes the best equipment available. why?,,,,because there IS a difference with finely crafted tools.

tell you what,,,,you go offer rodney morris the best house cue to play with and he'll hand that cue back to you in a mahattan minute.

However, if you are willing to stake him in a game, on favorable terms, on the condition that he plays with a good house cue, and he's able to warm up sufficiently with it, I think he'd do it. Especially if you sweeten the pot.

Flex

 

[Flex]

Hi Edwin,
What your saying is absolutely 100% correct. Player equipment is a matter of pride. If the players feels good about about his cue, case or whatever, it turns into a mental thing of having full confidence in his ability to win.

How true, how true.

 

[hemicudas]

Sorry, but I fail to see how a specific dollar amount, in this case $300, will guarantee you are getting a cue that will feel good, provide a good hit, and keep you from losing speed.

It's not so simple as that, IMHO. How can you seriously prove that an arbitrary $300 will achieve what you want?

My contention is that a good playing cue can be had for far less... It may take some time to find one, but what the heck. So what? And paying $300 or $400 or $500 or $1000 will not guarantee that you will be happy with a cue's playability.

Flex

Gotta go with, Flex on this one, Fatboy. I don't think you can set an arbitrary $$$ amount and be assured of getting a cue you will be happy with. I too have owned cues far less than $300 that, I thought, hit as well as Bill Stack's Balabushka, which I played with any time I wanted for 10 years. I believe you can convince yourself that a cue can't be any good that cost less than $300 and you would be right, in your own mind.

The best hitting cue I've ever owned was one of the first cues Bill Stroud made after leaving Danny Janes. No, it wasn't a cheap cue but I won it off Louie Roberts, getting a ton of weight and kept it for 25 years.

Jimmy "Fly Boy" Spears, once asked me what the object of every cue maker was? I started listing balance, hit, taper and all the other standard answeres. Jimmy, said no. He said they all try to make their two piece cues feel and play like a one piece cue. Jimmy, could pick a cue off the wall, do a little work on the tip and beat most of um in the 70s.

 

[ShootingArts]

right you are

Jimmy "Fly Boy" Spears, once asked me what the object of every cue maker was? I started listing balance, hit, taper and all the other standard answeres. Jimmy, said no. He said they all try to make their two piece cues feel and play like a one piece cue. Jimmy, could pick a cue off the wall, do a little work on the tip and beat most of um in the 70s.

Right you are. I played off the wall for all of my gambling years. Walking in a place with a stick with a hinge in it would have been a give away. I had a brad tool and a piece of sandpaper or scotch brite in my pocket and if I could get away with it without anyone noticing I would touch up a stick, otherwise, straight off the wall.

The well made one piece house sticks are very solid. I never played better pool than with a ten dollar Brunswick house stick that I paid another twelve dollars to have a milk dud installed on way back when.

The catch is that the vast majority of two piece sticks are not nearly as well made as the one piece cues are. Typically over a dozen places for a two piece to be poorly fitted, poorly glued together, or just shortcuts taken that result in an inferior product. $300 actually isn't a bad guideline, usually quality made cues start around $350. That isn't to say that there aren't some good cues that are less expensive or that there aren't some costing many times this that are pieces of junk, garbage on the inside with a pretty exterior.

However, by and large you get what you pay for or less than you pay for. Rarely do you get more than you pay for. Anything other than a sneaky or merry widow for under $350, custom or production, that is truly well made is a great bargain. The sneaky or merry widow starts off as a house cue or a blank made like a house cue so the hit is there before the custom work begins. Of course with enough effort you can still make a poorly hitting sneaky or merry widow.

If I wanted a decent stick cheap I think I would go to the pool hall and find a house stick that weighed what I wanted it to and still had a straight shaft although the stick showed some mileage. A new straight stick may warp, usually an older stick that is still straight after a few months use will stay straight. Anyway, buy this and pay to have a joint, ferule, and tip installed. For under $150 you have a decent playing stick and most importantly, you play with the same stick all of the time.

That is the greatest value to owning your own stick. Good, bad, or ugly, you learn a stick's playing characteristics and it is easier to play with one you know than being in a new world every time you grab one off the wall.

Hu

 

[Fatboy]

Gotta go with, Flex on this one, Fatboy. I don't think you can set an arbitrary $$$ amount and be assured of getting a cue you will be happy with. I too have owned cues far less than $300 that, I thought, hit as well as Bill Stack's Balabushka, which I played with any time I wanted for 10 years. I believe you can convince yourself that a cue can't be any good that cost less than $300 and you would be right, in your own mind.

The best hitting cue I've ever owned was one of the first cues Bill Stroud made after leaving Danny Janes. No, it wasn't a cheap cue but I won it off Louie Roberts, getting a ton of weight and kept it for 25 years.

Jimmy "Fly Boy" Spears, once asked me what the object of every cue maker was? I started listing balance, hit, taper and all the other standard answeres. Jimmy, said no. He said they all try to make their two piece cues feel and play like a one piece cue. Jimmy, could pick a cue off the wall, do a little work on the tip and beat most of um in the 70s.

perhaps i wasent clear, what i meant by the $300 numbet is that most of the time you go below that amount corners are cut on materials and conctruction and you might not got a great cue, over that amount your chances of getting something that works are increased alot, there are exceptions, i was just generalizing and thats the price point that i came up with, am i clear? perhaps not. lemme know

 

[SCCues]

Cheap cues

I would love to see one of the pro's use a cheap Players cue or something, and just kick butt!

Earl Strickland didn't do too bad with a white Cuetec cue that he played with for years.........

 

[Cornerman]

All the pro's use a very high class cue, I know they get them for free because they are sponsored, but is it really necessary? The idea that they are giving the smaller pool players is that you need a really expensive cue to be the best. I would love to see one of the pro's use a cheap Players cue or something, and just kick butt! I know they could, they just like all the expensive inlays and custom crap.

Feel free to disagree...

I'm having a hard time understanding the post and the follow up posts in general. All of the pros most certainly do not play with very high class cues. So, since statement one is false, does the rest of the post and thread die?

I think most everyone will agree that any cue will do, as long as the weilder feels comfortable holding and stroking it. Some cues will hold up better than others. Inlays and other adorments are just adornments. Those who adorn their cues, not one of them believes they make them play better. To that end, that part of this thread dies as well.

You can't argue against something that doesn't have an opposition.

Fred

 

[jay helfert]

Gotta go with, Flex on this one, Fatboy. I don't think you can set an arbitrary $$$ amount and be assured of getting a cue you will be happy with. I too have owned cues far less than $300 that, I thought, hit as well as Bill Stack's Balabushka, which I played with any time I wanted for 10 years. I believe you can convince yourself that a cue can't be any good that cost less than $300 and you would be right, in your own mind.

The best hitting cue I've ever owned was one of the first cues Bill Stroud made after leaving Danny Janes. No, it wasn't a cheap cue but I won it off Louie Roberts, getting a ton of weight and kept it for 25 years.

Jimmy "Fly Boy" Spears, once asked me what the object of every cue maker was? I started listing balance, hit, taper and all the other standard answeres. Jimmy, said no. He said they all try to make their two piece cues feel and play like a one piece cue. Jimmy, could pick a cue off the wall, do a little work on the tip and beat most of um in the 70s.

I've said the same thing to cuemakers before. How can you duplicate the hit of a one piece cue? Did you see my thread about the Starkey cue. If you want to see photos of it, PM me. It is as close to a one piece cue as I have played with. The guy deserves some recognition for making a cue with a one piece hit. The joint alone is unique.

You mark my words. This guy will sell a lot of cues. The workmanship is very good, with liberal use of Maple, Tulipwood and Purpleheart. And a very low price, under $400. One of the best values I've seen. Reminds me of Tom Coker and Ned Morris before they became well known.

 

[jay helfert]

Right you are. I played off the wall for all of my gambling years. Walking in a place with a stick with a hinge in it would have been a give away. I had a brad tool and a piece of sandpaper or scotch brite in my pocket and if I could get away with it without anyone noticing I would touch up a stick, otherwise, straight off the wall.

The well made one piece house sticks are very solid. I never played better pool than with a ten dollar Brunswick house stick that I paid another twelve dollars to have a milk dud installed on way back when.

The catch is that the vast majority of two piece sticks are not nearly as well made as the one piece cues are. Typically over a dozen places for a two piece to be poorly fitted, poorly glued together, or just shortcuts taken that result in an inferior product. $300 actually isn't a bad guideline, usually quality made cues start around $350. That isn't to say that there aren't some good cues that are less expensive or that there aren't some costing many times this that are pieces of junk, garbage on the inside with a pretty exterior.

However, by and large you get what you pay for or less than you pay for. Rarely do you get more than you pay for. Anything other than a sneaky or merry widow for under $350, custom or production, that is truly well made is a great bargain. The sneaky or merry widow starts off as a house cue or a blank made like a house cue so the hit is there before the custom work begins. Of course with enough effort you can still make a poorly hitting sneaky or merry widow.

If I wanted a decent stick cheap I think I would go to the pool hall and find a house stick that weighed what I wanted it to and still had a straight shaft although the stick showed some mileage. A new straight stick may warp, usually an older stick that is still straight after a few months use will stay straight. Anyway, buy this and pay to have a joint, ferule, and tip installed. For under $150 you have a decent playing stick and most importantly, you play with the same stick all of the time.

That is the greatest value to owning your own stick. Good, bad, or ugly, you learn a stick's playing characteristics and it is easier to play with one you know than being in a new world every time you grab one off the wall.

Hu

He knows of what he speaks.

 

[pharaoh68]

I disagree. To be the best there are two steps that you must complete.

Step #1 - Pocket ball A into pocket B

Step #2 - Repeat step #1 about 5 millions times and you'll be well on your way.

Remember, its not the bow, its not the arrow, its the Indian.

This is an excellent point. but what you have to remember is that the variance from Indian to Indian (in this case poolplayers) are great. Some players can step to a table with a $5 cue and beat you. Basavich used to beat college kids shooting with a broom handle. He had confidence and thus, he never faltered when it came to what was in his hands.

Conversly, world champion Fong Pang Chao played with a Gina that would likely have run $6500-$7500. And he claims that he played the best pool of his life with it. When it was lost by an airline in transit, it got in his head that he couldn't win without it. Thus, he played like crap for months on end.

The cue doesn't matter. The player doesn't matter. It all comes down to the players head. Whatever makes him or her comfortable within their own head is what will ultimately make their game that much better.

 

[pharaoh68]

I'm having a hard time understanding the post and the follow up posts in general. All of the pros most certainly do not play with very high class cues. So, since statement one is false, does the rest of the post and thread die?

I think most everyone will agree that any cue will do, as long as the weilder feels comfortable holding and stroking it. Some cues will hold up better than others. Inlays and other adorments are just adornments. Those who adorn their cues, not one of them believes they make them play better. To that end, that part of this thread dies as well.

You can't argue against something that doesn't have an opposition.

Fred

Hit the nail right on the head!