If there was a tour with monthly events Jam, what would you like to see for a top 10 finish. A person can't bank on 1st, but a top 10 would be a good goal. Lets say 8th place.
Proud Professionals
- Thread starter Jason Robichaud
- Start date
Jason Robichaud said:
I guess it depends on the length of the tournament, expenses incurred, et cetera. Believe it or not, daily living expenses include eating food because you're on the road. You can go to a grocery store and get a hotel room with a fridge, but it's still expensive. Gasoline and air travel has increased in price as well, and there's always miscellaneous expenses like tolls, toiletries, tips, cab fares, and so on.
Going to the U.S. Open used to cost my household about $2,500. This year, it will probably cost us about $3,000 for the week-long event. Third place pays out $10,000 at the U.S. Open.
Currently, most tournaments on average requires a player to win, place, or show, just to break even, but they are so stuck from previous tournaments that even when they win, it only helps to pay down the debt.
I would bet you that I could count on one hand how many American pool players are fully sponsored today, having all their expenses paid for like Tiger Woods, et al.
The majority of American players travel on their own dime. I see some very innovative money-making plans today by some pros that are very awe-inspiring. For an older pro who is a family man with children, there comes a time when priorities take over. If it comes down to food on the table for your kids or going to the U.S. Open, which do you think he will choose? The same goes for the fans. The U.S. Open and DCC are two of my favorite pool tournaments, but it's hard to come up with those monies to attend when they come out of your own pocket.
JAM
catscradle said:
I played in a few mini-tour events in golf several years back and there were a lot of guys that did that year round. They were trying to make enough to get to Q-school or get sponsors to keep playing. The payouts were pretty miserable and only the top 3 each week actually made a decent amount. What I found was that some players could take x amount of dollars and play in 10 tournaments without a decent finish and player y could take the same amount of money and play in only 3 tournaments before he was busted.
The reason for this is that some players viewed it as a job and planned accordingly (staying in motel 6, eating Mcdonalds, not going out, etc..), while others partied, stayed in higher priced motels, and had steak and lobster. I would think that with the right budget $100,000 would be a nice salary for the average touring professional in pool.
Having said this, I will still say to every person trying to make a living at pool. If you don't like the way that pool pays then get another job. I have no sympathy for someone that doesn't help themselves simply because it's not what they want to do.
ScottW said:
you are exactly right Scott. If I lost my job and then had to go to work at Mcdonalds to feed my family then you can bet your sweet ass that I would. How exactly is my saying that I have no sympathy for someone that won't help themselves showing a lack of respect for anyone? lol, makes no sense.
It's just like welfare. I can't stand the thought of my tax dollars paying for some lazy ass to sit on the couch and draw a check each month while he watches Jerry Springer. If a person is truly disabled and can't work then that's a different issue and I can understand that.
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ScottW said:
In case you missed it, the whole point of this thread is about the payout difficulties pro players experience.
Payouts is the biggest stumbling block in professional pool.
Even so, many pro players struggle to follow the tournament trail. Some Hall of Famers have done this their entire life, and when I hear comments like those mentioned in this thread, especially as it pertains to American champion players, it makes my blood boil. It's easy to make insulting comments about professional players from the outside looking in.
You want to know what's wrong with American pool? There is no respect for the skill sets and years of practice these champion pro players have achieved.
Don't worry, though. Soon the existing lot of professional players will be gone. There aren't too many American players trying to go pro today. Then you can all root for the American hot dog champion on ESPN. Championship pool will be extinct on American soil soon enough.
JAM
cleary said:
Yeah, suddenly I'm not so happy.
JAM said:
nobody in this thread has made insulting remarks towards pool players! Why is it that you view every opinion that somebody has as an attack on you?
If eating hot dogs pays $50,000 then its easy to see why some people might want to do that. The fact of the matter is that pool doesn't pay well. All I was saying is that regardless of the profession, if it doesn't pay enough to pay the bills then choose another. Instead of constantly griping about the poor state of American pool, do something about it.
I have sponsored players, put on tournaments, attended events with admission, bought every PPV stream out there, and spent an enormous amount of money on pool to show my support. If I didn't have this job or a family then I would love to be a part of something like TAR. But, I do have a family and I do have a job, so I do what is necessary for me to live and have my family supported in the manner that I think they need to be supported in.
I do feel that if a person is unhappy with their job, they should consider moving on to something else. Also, I think you have to ask the question, what are the pro players doing to help start a tour? Are they out trying to help in anyway or are they just sitting around with their fingers crossed waiting on a tour to come along. I know Mike Janis goes out and tries to recruit new and old poolrooms to host tournies, but maybe there should be some sort of committee lead by someone that could be a player representative and they could go out and try and get sponsors. The main thing is to have a plan for companies to see and be able to see what it can accomplish. I would start with companies like Budweiser, Coors, etc. they seem to support pool more because 95% of the poolrooms serve alcohol. Just a thought....
Southpaw
Southpaw
JAM said:
JAM
I just don't get it. Why should Pro pool players be treated or viewed any differently than a machinist or a fry cook. If you don't like the job (fry cook machinist or whatever) then you need to find another job.
Its that simple. Over the past few years I have done the reverse. I was making decent money but was working all the time and just was not happy at all. Finally the light bulb hit me and I left. Now I make about half of what I did make but have more freedom. Money can bog down a person.
I still find it funny that people just assume that a Pro "pool" player should make 100k. There are people that are fabulous at pitching quarters...shoudl they make 100k also.
Money made has nothing to do with the skill. Its all about what is available to be paid determined by demand. There is no demand. Pool players dont even watch pool players.
I used to work in the restuarant biz and saw people there that were unbelievable at their job but I could only pay them what I could pay them.
I used to tell all of them to get out and find a better job.
If I loved pool and played good enough to be a Pro player I would take way less than 100k a year after expenses and play Pro pool for a living. No brainer. I met 90% now would do it for 30k-40k and would be loving it.
Southpaw said:
good ideas. I think if a group of pros would put together some resumes' of their accomplishments and a video montage or package and actually go out and pitch the idea of "Professional Pool" to mainstream sponsors then something might get done. I bet the majority of big time sponsors that have the corporate money to sustain a major tour don't even know that big time pool exists or who the best players are.
I think it all comes down to this old saying: "You'll get out of it whatever you put into it."
I am extremely lucky to be able to make a living as an instructor. Half of my income is derived from giving private classes to individuals, teams, group seminars etc. The other half is derived from book sales and other pool related ventures that I am involved in.
To generate income, I need to get off of my ass and find students. I don't sit around waiting for them to find me. I have work with the league operators, room owners, tour directors, stores, other instructors, etc. It's a lot of work.
My day starts at 6:30 AM and sometimes I am still at it at past 11PM. Ask anyone that calls me during the day for instruction - I always answer my phone. Last night I was on the phone with 3 other instructors, 2 pro players, and Mark Griffin. I think I put the phone down at 11PM.
In between giving classes, coaching players on the phone, and attending to other pool related business matters, I continue to write new instructional material, and I am currently doing commentary on some 14.1 videos from this year's DCC - and it takes up every minute of every day.
Not a day goes by where I am not working on something that is designed to promote the game of pool in a positive way.
Some people like what I do. Some people don't. Nobody can accuse me of not working.
It's hard work. It's a full time job from the minute I get up until the minute I go to sleep.
I bring this up because I know many other people that are doing the same exact thing, day in - day out. The majority of the players do not have this type of work ethic. To have anything succeed - for any tour to attract money - to be profitable - the players need to have the same type of work ethic I just described. Imagine what we could accomplish if we were all out there doing our best to promote the game instead of wasting our energy talking about the current state of affairs.
The money and success all comes down to how bad they want it and how hard they are willing to work for it. Success isn't going to fall from the sky and into your bank account. If you go through life as a parked car, don't be surprised if the scenery (or your outlook) never changes.
Someone told me a long time ago, "David, half measures will avail you nothing."
The older I get, the more true that becomes.
I am extremely lucky to be able to make a living as an instructor. Half of my income is derived from giving private classes to individuals, teams, group seminars etc. The other half is derived from book sales and other pool related ventures that I am involved in.
To generate income, I need to get off of my ass and find students. I don't sit around waiting for them to find me. I have work with the league operators, room owners, tour directors, stores, other instructors, etc. It's a lot of work.
My day starts at 6:30 AM and sometimes I am still at it at past 11PM. Ask anyone that calls me during the day for instruction - I always answer my phone. Last night I was on the phone with 3 other instructors, 2 pro players, and Mark Griffin. I think I put the phone down at 11PM.
In between giving classes, coaching players on the phone, and attending to other pool related business matters, I continue to write new instructional material, and I am currently doing commentary on some 14.1 videos from this year's DCC - and it takes up every minute of every day.
Not a day goes by where I am not working on something that is designed to promote the game of pool in a positive way.
Some people like what I do. Some people don't. Nobody can accuse me of not working.
It's hard work. It's a full time job from the minute I get up until the minute I go to sleep.
I bring this up because I know many other people that are doing the same exact thing, day in - day out. The majority of the players do not have this type of work ethic. To have anything succeed - for any tour to attract money - to be profitable - the players need to have the same type of work ethic I just described. Imagine what we could accomplish if we were all out there doing our best to promote the game instead of wasting our energy talking about the current state of affairs.
The money and success all comes down to how bad they want it and how hard they are willing to work for it. Success isn't going to fall from the sky and into your bank account. If you go through life as a parked car, don't be surprised if the scenery (or your outlook) never changes.
Someone told me a long time ago, "David, half measures will avail you nothing."
The older I get, the more true that becomes.
Does that $30-$40K include the entry fees?JAM said:
Damn, that's a lot. Over $1000 per event. Are travel costs really that high per player?
Quick question to those "in the know"... what does the average pro tournament player do during the times when they aren't on the tournament trail? (to make money, I mean) Do most of them have other jobs?
Southpaw said:
An excellent idea, but IMHO it's something that would need to be done in conjunction with, and as a part of, an organization that is prepared to run a tour.
Just having players going out trying to convince sponsors to pony up won't do much good unless the sponsors have some organization *to* offer funds.
Or maybe pool should go the men's pro bowling route, and get some ex-Microsoft millionaires to buy in. If you can, catch the film "A League of Ordinary Gentlemen", about the revival of men's professional bowling. A great flick.
ScottW said:
Is that the one with Sean Connery?
Blackjack said:
Good Post David. I respect and admire your chosen profession and the fact that you work so hard at it. You are exactly right about work ethic. Most of the pros that I know don't go about pool as if it's their job even though its their only source of imcome. They play golf all day or sleep until 4. The ones that practice 6-8 hours a day are the ones I applaud. Tiger Woods makes 100 million a year from prize money and endorsements, but guess what, he hits balls and practices for 8-10 hours a day.
lodini said:
Room $40 per night 3 nights 120$
Entry $100
Food $20 per day for 3 days 60$
Gas/flight
nights on road between events
more food
practice time
tips/cue work
Stolen crap.
wouldn't take long staying out playing month after month. I did sales driving around and home every night. I spent 50-100$ a day on gas and 1 meal. Add a room and entry and other meals. $1000 per week easy.