Push shot foul?

[fastone371]

In the 2026 European Open, Quinten Pongers got called on a foul for this shot. Let's assume the ball was called frozen. Do you know what the rule is?

The shot:

Commentators' discussions...

Clearly Boyes clearly doesn't know pool rules, he claims right after the shot, "that is the maddest thing I have ever seen in pool or on a Snookah table" he goes to laugh then claim "of course its a push shot". I think he calls it a push shot because the ref declares the balls frozen, if they were not frozen it would have been a double hit, not a push. The other point that makes me think that he is not clear on pool rules is that he keeps comparing the rules to Snookah and "other cue sports". When the ref inspects the balls you can hear the word "frozen" spoken right after he backs away from the table. Its just as possible that he said "not frozen" as well as "frozen" because its real hard to hear, closed captioning also doesnt pick up either word.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I think he calls it a push shot because the ref declares the balls frozen, if they were not frozen it would have been a double hit, not a push. ...

I believe Karl thinks push shots and double hits are all the same. At snooker, they are. Even in the US, many players call a double hit a push shot.

 

[fastone371]

I believe Karl thinks push shots and double hits are all the same. At snooker, they are. Even in the US, many players call a double hit a push shot.

If that's the case Boyes really needs to brush up on his pool rules, especially before poking fun at the guy who made the shot on the broadcast. Kinda makes him look like a tool.

 

[jbygden]

I can't believe I've been watching pro pool for so long and never seen a player actually shoot this shot. It's not often we get these rare occurrences.

My guess is the reason for that is the players believe it to be a foul and hence doesn't even try - until now...

 

[Poolplaya9]

This is a great clip of why it’s not a double hit but it doesn’t show the difference between a legal shot into a frozen ball and an illegal push shot. Lots of people apparently (including Karl Boyes it seems) think it’s a push. Do you know of a clip showing the actual illegal push technique?

Here are several. The first 3 links are different views of the same shot involving an illegal push stroke. The fourth link is an illegal push stroke on a different shot and there are tons of videos online with other variations of this shot (where they make different balls of the three depending on the exact setup and which english they used in their illegal push) but I don't know where they are off hand, maybe somebody else can post some of them.

Another very famous trick shot using an illegal push that is out there all over the place, but where I don't have a link offhand, is where say the 8 ball is frozen to the rail less than a diamond from the corner pocket, and the cue ball is frozen to the 8 in a line perpendicular to the rail, and then you push the cue ball with english and the 8 ball goes "sideways" along the rail into that near corner pocket. Maybe somebody knows a link for that one as well.

On a side note, it is near if not impossible to hit hard (where the cue is already clearly moving fast prior to impacting the cue ball) and do a push shot, because a push essentially requires first somewhat gently placing the tip against the cue ball and then pushing so that they stay in contact with each other for a prolonged period. With some practice someone can somewhat mask this action on softer shots to almost make it look like a normal stroke if somebody is not paying close attention to the stroke, but that isn't really possible for them to do on hard hit shots. Pongers hit hard on this shot so you can all but rule out the possibility of a push just based on the speed of the hit alone. The shot that Pongers did here was very clearly a normal, legal stroke, not a push, and as such was not a foul if the balls had been declared frozen by the ref.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1894078871318910

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=522159804823200

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=863161657540400

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=995735750850233

 

[Badpenguin]

Great example of rules that just can't be realistically followed. If the world's "best" professional referee and former world champion pool players can't get the rule straight, maybe the issue isn't with the ref, it is with the rule. Just saying.

 

[mikepage]

This is a great clip of why it’s not a double hit but it doesn’t show the difference between a legal shot into a frozen ball and an illegal push shot. Lots of people apparently (including Karl Boyes it seems) think it’s a push. Do you know of a clip showing the actual illegal push technique?

 

[Badpenguin]

Post #111 links to a TAR match push shot by Corey Deuel.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Great example of rules that just can't be realistically followed. If the world's "best" professional referee and former world champion pool players can't get the rule straight, maybe the issue isn't with the ref, it is with the rule. Just saying.

If you are not allowed to shoot towards a frozen ball, what other rule do you propose? Like snooker, where you must shoot away?

 

[Bob Jewett]

My guess is the reason for that is the players believe it to be a foul and hence doesn't even try - until now...

It's true that most players have only a vague notion of what the rules say. Even most pros don't know all the rules, including for frozen balls.

I see the following often on FB pool groups:

A player will post a video clip of a shot. Fair or foul? The call will be obvious, but fair/foul responses will be about 50-50. For those who give a reason for their correct response, the reason will usually be wrong. This means a large majority of players have no idea how to make a correct call in a problematic situation.

 

[Badpenguin]

If you are not allowed to shoot towards a frozen ball, what other rule do you propose? Like snooker, where you must shoot away?

As long as the balls are ruled frozen and it isn't an incredibly obvious (you'll know it's porn when you see it) push shot, it is good. Shooter gets benefit of the doubt.

I think it it requires a longer contact to move two balls, and that will always to some degree appear to be a push shot.

Now, when there are more than two balls frozen, I have no idea what rule should apply there. Imagine shooting into 5 frozen balls in a 1P rack.

 

[iusedtoberich]

If that's the case Boyes really needs to brush up on his pool rules, especially before poking fun at the guy who made the shot on the broadcast. Kinda makes him look like a tool.

Karl was first declared a tool when he called a foul on Shannon Daulton at the US Open after the rack was won. 10 years before anyone did nitty stuff like that in pro-pool.

 

[GideonF]

As long as the balls are ruled frozen and it isn't an incredibly obvious (you'll know it's porn when you see it) push shot, it is good. Shooter gets benefit of the doubt.

But that is the rule already (other than perhaps “incredibly”)

 

[Bob Jewett]

As long as the balls are ruled frozen and it isn't an incredibly obvious (you'll know it's porn when you see it) push shot, it is good. Shooter gets benefit of the doubt.

The Pongers' shot was very clearly not a push shot. It's not a matter of doubt.

 

[Badpenguin]

But that is the rule already.

If that was the rule already, this would not have been ruled a push foul by Marcel.

 

[GideonF]

If that was the rule already, this would not have been ruled a push foul by Marcel.

It is the rule already. If Marcel was actually applying the rule (instead of deciding he can’t overturn the other ref’s call) then he clearly doesn’t understand what a real push shot is. This is not the first time Marcel has gotten clear rules wrong.

 

[Badpenguin]

It is the rule already. If Marcel was actually applying the rule (instead of deciding he can’t overturn the other ref’s call) then he clearly doesn’t understand what a real push shot is. This is not the first time Marcel has gotten clear rules wrong.

Benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter. That is part two of what I think the rule should be.

 

[iusedtoberich]

The Pongers' shot was very clearly not a push shot. It's not a matter of doubt.

Right. Karl is like many others and he's using the same term "push" to mean "double hit". Crazy how so many players don't know the difference.

I kind of think maybe it's because they weren't around hustlers. The hustlers would do legit "push" shots in prop bets to win money. Young players around them, and that lost money to them, would know what a "push" is for the rest of their lives.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If that was the rule already, this would not have been ruled a push foul by Marcel.

Marcel did not rule it as a foul. Marcel declined to overturn the ruling of the ref at the table. They do not have video review.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... push foul ...

Check out the video clip above by Mike Page for what a push shot looks like at pool. Many people use push shot and double hit interchangeably. They are much different.