Quality of leather in cases

[JB Cases]

John,

You are certainly a liar simply because you are lying when you call me one. I'm not an expert on a lot of things. However I do read the news and whatever catches my interest so I am far from totally ignorant about many things I'm not an expert on. The crappy leather makes news besides the fact I have seen it first hand. The safety issues in the chinese leather tanneries makes news. The safety issues from the chemicals still in the leather makes news. I read the news! Hard for you to grasp?

I see, you read it in the news.............so again you make a comment no one can prove. Same as you always do.

Likewise, I know what the chinese factory workers were making a year or two ago because it made news here in the US that they were working long hours six or seven days a week supplying components for US carmakers and making between 90 and 95 cents an hour. I think it was 92 cents but I'll admit I'm working from memory. Likewise I know that some workers in the mideast were making even less because somebody claimed that they got a 30% pay raise like it was a big deal. They got a thirty percent pay raise that was considerably less than thirty cents. How do I know these things? IT WAS IN THE NEWS!!

Again with the news? So in a country with 1.4 billion people you KNOW how every factory is run and what every employee of those factories make?

AS I SAID JOHN THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING GENERALLY INFORMED AND BEING AN EXPERT. THERE IS ALSO A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING INFORMED AND GOING THROUGH LIFE WITH YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS! THIS WHOLE PISSING CONTEST STARTED BECAUSE YOU WHO SUPPOSEDLY WORK WITH LEATHER EVERY DAY AND HAVE MADE A CAREER OUT OF IT ARE EMBARRASSED BECAUSE YOU HAD NO CLUE HOW THICK A COW HIDE WAS AND MADE A MORONIC STATEMENT WHEN YOU WERE PRETENDING TO BE AN EXPERT!!

Now you are yelling. I already told you that I am not an expert on leather. I am an expert in putting it together. I already told you that I spoke on the thickness of leather off the cow because I read it somewhere (or thought I did) You know, not unlike you reading "the news" and accepting it as fact.

I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF TO KNOW MUCH AT ALL ABOUT LEATHER BUT IT IS OBVIOUS THAT AS UNINFORMED AS I AM I KNOW THINGS ABOUT IT YOU DON'T AFTER WORKING WITH IT FOR YEARS. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME A KNOW IT ALL, IT JUST SHOWS YOUR IGNORANCE.

Smokey already corrected both of us. He actually knows leather from cow to shoe.

In many areas I consider myself having little knowledge I still have far more knowledge than you do. That isn't saying anything impressive about me, only how willfully ignorant you are! The fact that you are hopelessly uninformed doesn't make those that aren't in as sad of shape know it alls.

You are the quintessential jack-of-all-trades when one only reads what you write on AZB. Lucky for you none of it can be proven without some effort and investigation. You get to pretend to be whoever you want to be on any subject. Between your proclivity to lie (my opinion) and google you can remake yourself every day.

Sorry for the delay explaining how foolish you are. I've been a bit busy dealing with flood waters, tornados, and a flea bitten hound I rescued from flood waters. The hound needed shelter from the still falling rain and the stray dog was much more important to me than you are.

awww, you are such a kind person.....clap clap clap...........amazing......should we get out our charity yardsticks now and measure them to see who is the better person.

Feel free to continue your ranting. While you are at it though how about trying to disprove what I say about the factory workers pay or the issues with leather quality and chemicals? You know, some facts to back up your ranting, some proof that I am lying. I'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of backing up your claims I am lying because we both know I am not.

What sort of facts do you want? Testimony from industry people who have been there? Pictures? Chemical testing? A documentary by Michael Moore? What would you like to see?

Maybe you could spend some time on Google and come up with some stories about these Chinese tanneries to back up your claims.

Go find the stories you read or heard on the "news". Given your self-proclaimed expertise as an engineer/researcher/inventor/photographer/pool hustler/intellectual property expert/world class gun shooter/amazing race car driver/ceo of a fortune 50 company/rescuer of strays.....and now cowboy it should be an easy exercise for you after you have deloused the stray dog. Hell you can probably do both at the same time. Forgive me if I missed something you excelled at, it's very difficult to keep up with all you have done.

Once you find the stories I will address them. Until then I will consider your "memory" to in fabrication mode.

 

[ShootingArts]

you are the one that wears out google

You are the one that wears out google. If the things I say weren't true you would be proudly posting rebuttals from google and the leather sites.

I am a bit of a jack of all trades and master of a few. Comes from doing for myself instead of having to have others solve all my problems. You should try it sometimes. I'm still trying to figure out how you have became a case maker when you have apparently never seen a half cow hide and farm out all of your carving work by your own reports. Your own reports again reveal that you took apart every other maker's case you could lay hands on to find how they did things. That is reverse engineering, a term you apparently don't understand either. I notice you don't care to talk about the manner in which you pay your workers or the amount either. All your rants are to avoid any real communication. I have yet to see you post one fact in the thread. A lot of smoke and noise doesn't impress me or anyone else.

I feel brain cells dying just trying to get down to your level. I'm going check on the dog, she is much much smarter than you are, better looking too!

Hu

I see, you read it in the news.............so again you make a comment no one can prove. Same as you always do.



Again with the news? So in a country with 1.4 billion people you KNOW how every factory is run and what every employee of those factories make?



Now you are yelling. I already told you that I am not an expert on leather. I am an expert in putting it together. I already told you that I spoke on the thickness of leather off the cow because I read it somewhere (or thought I did) You know, not unlike you reading "the news" and accepting it as fact.




Smokey already corrected both of us. He actually knows leather from cow to shoe.



You are the quintessential jack-of-all-trades when one only reads what you write on AZB. Lucky for you none of it can be proven without some effort and investigation. You get to pretend to be whoever you want to be on any subject. Between your proclivity to lie (my opinion) and google you can remake yourself every day.



awww, you are such a kind person.....clap clap clap...........amazing......should we get out our charity yardsticks now and measure them to see who is the better person.



What sort of facts do you want? Testimony from industry people who have been there? Pictures? Chemical testing? A documentary by Michael Moore? What would you like to see?

Maybe you could spend some time on Google and come up with some stories about these Chinese tanneries to back up your claims.

Go find the stories you read or heard on the "news". Given your self-proclaimed expertise as an engineer/researcher/inventor/photographer/pool hustler/intellectual property expert/world class gun shooter/amazing race car driver/ceo of a fortune 50 company/rescuer of strays.....and now cowboy it should be an easy exercise for you after you have deloused the stray dog. Hell you can probably do both at the same time. Forgive me if I missed something you excelled at, it's very difficult to keep up with all you have done.

Once you find the stories I will address them. Until then I will consider your "memory" to in fabrication mode.

 

[bhale]

Come guys, Please Stop It

Brian

 

[JB Cases]

:thumbup:
:thumbup: Thank you.



So. Clearly there is no meaningful system of rating quality of leathers.

In the end it is the perception of the buyer that matters. Everybody has different expectations of leather and that is what must be satisfied. If you rely on somebody else to tell you then you are actually relying on their preference and not a quantitative analysis or rating of some sort.

So I guess the question becomes: What do you expect from leather?

There are meaningful systems but in finished goods it's muddy.

This is why I have repeatedly said that consumers should do their own research.

There is a ton of information out there on what is leather, what the types of leather are, how to tell them apart, what is allowed to display the REAL LEATHER tag and what is not.

http://www.all-about-leather.co.uk/what-is-leather/what-is-leather.htm

It can be confusing and daunting but the information IS there. Anyone who wants to learn can learn what questions to ask of their case maker and compare the answers. I have customers that do just this and they specify exactly what leathers they want used in their case. I try to comply as much as possible and advise them when I can't and send pictures of alternatives.

Leather is tanned in pretty much the same process all over the world according to Steven Siegel of Siegel's of California. Steven is a third generation merchant whose company has been in business since 1917 as leather distributors. Steven told me this in personal conversation.

Now, the quality of the hides and the quality of the tanning process is of course variable. The process is the same but dozens of variables can be tweaked.

So the resulting product can vary from run to run, shipment to shipment. Anyone who makes leather goods in quantity deals with this. Unless you pay a premium and deal with a company like Siegel's who allows their customers to inspect and return hides that don't satisfy them.

We pay those premiums and deal with companies that allow us to inspect the leather and send back what we don't want unless we agree to a lower price and accept the leather as is.

What's the point of this you might ask? Well the point is that leather, like most things, comes in many flavors and qualities and it's up to the maker of the goods to figure out what works best with the product they are offering and what the consumer will accept. What one maker considers the best is the best for them but not the best for everyone else.

When I am out buying prints I take a razor with me to perform scrape tests on the leather to help me to find leathers which I think will be more durable for the type of use a cue case goes through.

Being long and thin a cue case gets bumped a lot against other things so I want it to hold up. So that's how I judge the leather I buy.

What I am after is the end result of having a case that the customer loves and which will hold up for decades without failing (with reasonable care). To that end I use whatever leather is right for the job without feeling the need to advertise exactly WHAT the history of leather it is to enhance the perception for marketing purposes.

Unfortunately there is no way to know that any particular piece of leather was used in any particular case. I could buy some leather from every major supplier and say that case X used Herman Oak, and case Y used Wickett and Craig and there isn't any way to prove otherwise.

Now having said that there is a difference to the leather worker when they are working with "good" leather as opposed to crappy leather. Some leather cuts really nicely while other leather is hard to cut. Some leather takes dye very nicely while other leather does not. We have thrown away cases that were halfway done because the leather wouldn't take the dye properly. We have tossed leather that won't bend easily. In our business this is a risk we take with each case we make because we use so many different leathers in our case making.

Someone who uses primarily one type of leather from one or two suppliers has it easier. They are also limited to what they can make so that's the downside.

My advice to Ron and everyone else is to deal with case makers who will stand behind what they build with ZERO reservations and no hassles.

If I build a case for someone and they don't like the leather then I will make them a new case. Sucks when that happens but it does happen. I don't know of any other way to do it. Luckily in the almost five years I have been doing custom cases this has only come up once that I can remember.

At the end of the day when I ask someone to spend $500 on a leather case that they have not ever held, and many times the customer has never seen any example of our work, I feel that I have to give a 100% satisfaction guarantee which includes on the leather we chose to use for the case.

That's why we do mockups to show the leather and do progress pix to make sure the customer is happy with the way the case is developing once construction begins.

Sorry for the advertisement but I don't really know any other way to explain leather from my perspective than through the experience of doing the work.

 

[JB Cases]

You are the one that wears out google. If the things I say weren't true you would be proudly posting rebuttals from google and the leather sites.

I am a bit of a jack of all trades and master of a few. Comes from doing for myself instead of having to have others solve all my problems. You should try it sometimes. I'm still trying to figure out how you have became a case maker when you have apparently never seen a half cow hide and farm out all of your carving work by your own reports. Your own reports again reveal that you took apart every other maker's case you could lay hands on to find how they did things. That is reverse engineering, a term you apparently don't understand either. I notice you don't care to talk about the manner in which you pay your workers or the amount either. All your rants are to avoid any real communication. I have yet to see you post one fact in the thread. A lot of smoke and noise doesn't impress me or anyone else.

I feel brain cells dying just trying to get down to your level. I'm going check on the dog, she is much much smarter than you are, better looking too!

Hu

Can't rebut something that doesn't exist. The lack of "news" to back you up is proof enough that you fabricate whatever you want to make your point.

You claim not to know much about leather and yet you 'have yet to see me post one fact"? If you don't know much about leather then how do you know what is fact and what isn't?

Trust me, when I get home, or possibly even before that I will take the whole forum on a tour of what leather is in a visual way. I can't fight you with words because liars have an endless supply of them. But I can fight you in the visual medium because you cannot lie your way out of seeing examples on video.

What this thread has done for me is make me understand how important it is to present the product in as tactile a way as possible. It's clear that Ron and many others are confused as to what leather is, what the differences in leathers are, and why it matters. Liars you you making shit up about things you claim to have read in the news doesn't help anyone. You lie to promote your "I hate John Barton" agenda. You make up crap about the Chinese leather industry to attempt to discredit and throw my products into a bad light.

As always you resort to the flag waving rah-rah with zero proof to back you up.

If we had to cite sources or be banned you'd have been gone long ago. I post links to the places where my information comes from. You don't, liar.

---------------------------------

My own reports?

I explain clearly how my shop works you idiot. I have 12 people working for me who build the cases according to my design. I can do every part of the process including the sewing and tooling. I work on the cases right alongside my staff.

Here are the pictures of my shop:

http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=12448

This is me finishing up the leather endcaps on tooled GTF cases. Leather endcaps that I invented by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0r...DvjVQa1PpcFPat3DYZeSUw4Wm9pltBC8eCpzRC3g_Au4=

As for me taking cases apart what should I do to learn? If someone is interested in making things better then they study what's been done. You act like this is some sort of bad thing? Oh my god John took a case apart to see how it's built........how horrible......

But when someone says that they x-rayed a Balabuska to see how it was built that's perfectly ok. I know you like to make stupid red-herring comments to deflect from the conversation when you are being crushed but this one is the silliest.

ON EVERY case type I have ever made we have made improvements to the type or invented new ways to do things. ALL OF THEM. I don't copy anyone, I take what I want and make it better.

By the same token other case makers have taken elements from me and done it their way. This is called progress Hu. Something I expect an Einstein-level intellect like yours would have already known.

If you find a copy here please point it out:
www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html

Overall though you are right about one thing. I should have let your comment about leather thickness off the cow slide. I jumped right into your bait as you knew I would. I have to learn to let liars go because there is not any possible way to stop to endless stream of crap they spew. Responding gives the platform to lie some more.

So as they say, on the internet nobody knows you're a dog. That statement describes you to a tee and I don't plan to keep allowing you a platform to change your breed every two posts.

 

[justadub]

Fer cryin' out loud you two....

We ALL get it. You don't like each other. Neither will let the other have the last word. You are each smarter than the other.

Just stop it.

There is nothing to be gained for the rest of us, watching you go at each other.

For the record, I value reading anything either of you post here, as I believe you both add a lot to the forum. EXCEPT when you get into anatomy-measuring contests, firing at each other here.

It is tiresome for the rest of the readership, and it lowers both of you in everyones eyes because of it. Which is a damn shame, because you are both (usually) part of what makes this place so great.

Agree to disagree, put each other on ignore, whatever it takes. Just grow the hell up, wouldya?

Thanks

 

[JB Cases]

Fer cryin' out loud you two....

We ALL get it. You don't like each other. Neither will let the other have the last word. You are each smarter than the other.

Just stop it.

There is nothing to be gained for the rest of us, watching you go at each other.

For the record, I value reading anything either of you post here, as I believe you both add a lot to the forum. EXCEPT when you get into anatomy-measuring contests, firing at each other here.

It is tiresome for the rest of the readership, and it lowers both of you in everyones eyes because of it. Which is a damn shame, because you are both (usually) part of what makes this place so great.

Agree to disagree, put each other on ignore, whatever it takes. Just grow the hell up, wouldya?

Thanks

Ok. Time for another JB bet. Hu is now on ignore and I bet a cue case to be raffled off that no matter what he says about me I won't respond. So Hu you now have free license to slander me as much you want to and I won't respond on AZB.

Should I respond directly to Hu then I will raffle off a case and donate the proceeds to the BCA junior player's fund.

 

[Chopdoc]

How about keep the case and just not do this crap?

Or better yet, raffle the case anyway as an apology for already slaughtering a thread where you might have been the MVP and now simply are not even close.

Or the most impressive option. Send the case to the poor OP for slaughtering his thread. After all, I think he was shopping for a case and that's how all this started. And no, I don't know him. I don't even remember who it was.


.

 

[JB Cases]

How about keep the case and just not do this crap?

Or better yet, raffle the case anyway as an apology for already slaughtering a thread where you might have been the MVP and now simply are not even close.

Or the most impressive option. Send the case to the poor OP for slaughtering his thread. After all, I think he was shopping for a case and that's how all this started. And no, I don't know him. I don't even remember who it was.


.

Please. Don't presume to tell me what to do. There is good information here. Stop furthering the drama.

People don't OWN threads on AZB. It's not yours or mine. You can start a thread and it will go where it goes.

I have posted a ton of good links for people to use to teach themselves about leather.

I merely made the bet with myself so that I can stop falling for the bait. Don't think that this gives you license to tell me how to live.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Can't rebut something that doesn't exist. The lack of "news" to back you up is proof enough that you fabricate whatever you want to make your point.

You claim not to know much about leather and yet you 'have yet to see me post one fact"? If you don't know much about leather then how do you know what is fact and what isn't?

Trust me, when I get home, or possibly even before that I will take the whole forum on a tour of what leather is in a visual way. I can't fight you with words because liars have an endless supply of them. But I can fight you in the visual medium because you cannot lie your way out of seeing examples on video.

What this thread has done for me is make me understand how important it is to present the product in as tactile a way as possible. It's clear that Ron and many others are confused as to what leather is, what the differences in leathers are, and why it matters. Liars you you making shit up about things you claim to have read in the news doesn't help anyone. You lie to promote your "I hate John Barton" agenda. You make up crap about the Chinese leather industry to attempt to discredit and throw my products into a bad light.

As always you resort to the flag waving rah-rah with zero proof to back you up.

If we had to cite sources or be banned you'd have been gone long ago. I post links to the places where my information comes from. You don't, liar.

---------------------------------

My own reports?

I explain clearly how my shop works you idiot. I have 12 people working for me who build the cases according to my design. I can do every part of the process including the sewing and tooling. I work on the cases right alongside my staff.

Here are the pictures of my shop:

http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=12448

This is me finishing up the leather endcaps on tooled GTF cases. Leather endcaps that I invented by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0r...DvjVQa1PpcFPat3DYZeSUw4Wm9pltBC8eCpzRC3g_Au4=

As for me taking cases apart what should I do to learn? If someone is interested in making things better then they study what's been done. You act like this is some sort of bad thing? Oh my god John took a case apart to see how it's built........how horrible......

But when someone says that they x-rayed a Balabuska to see how it was built that's perfectly ok. I know you like to make stupid red-herring comments to deflect from the conversation when you are being crushed but this one is the silliest.

ON EVERY case type I have ever made we have made improvements to the type or invented new ways to do things. ALL OF THEM. I don't copy anyone, I take what I want and make it better.

By the same token other case makers have taken elements from me and done it their way. This is called progress Hu. Something I expect an Einstein-level intellect like yours would have already known.

If you find a copy here please point it out:
www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html

Overall though you are right about one thing. I should have let your comment about leather thickness off the cow slide. I jumped right into your bait as you knew I would. I have to learn to let liars go because there is not any possible way to stop to endless stream of crap they spew. Responding gives the platform to lie some more.

So as they say, on the internet nobody knows you're a dog. That statement describes you to a tee and I don't plan to keep allowing you a platform to change your breed every two posts.

As you know, this forum has rules on people engaging in name-calling and ad hominem attacks on other posters.

In just this one thread, JB has called Hu a liar, an idiot, stupid and a dog. Hopefully, the moderators will notice these transgressions of forum etiquette and take appropriate action.

 

[JB Cases]

As you know, this forum has rules on people engaging in name-calling and ad hominem attacks on other posters.

In just this one thread, JB has called Hu a liar, an idiot, stupid and a dog. Hopefully, the moderators will notice these transgressions of forum etiquette and take appropriate action.

He has lied. He has posted dumb and false statements which are proof of idiocy and stupidity, and of course the statement about no one knowing you are a dog on the net is a reference to this famous cartoon describing the internet's power to allow each person to be whoever they want to be. I wasn't calling anyone a dog, it is a a metaphor.

And with that lesson you are also now on ignore. That you follow me around has been clear for a long time. I can't do anything about that but I can try to ignore you using the function of this forum.

 

[Chopdoc]

Please. Don't presume to tell me what to do. There is good information here. Stop furthering the drama.

People don't OWN threads on AZB. It's not yours or mine. You can start a thread and it will go where it goes.

I have posted a ton of good links for people to use to teach themselves about leather.

I merely made the bet with myself so that I can stop falling for the bait. Don't think that this gives you license to tell me how to live.

I don't presume to tell you what to do, so you need not suggest so. I merely suggest now don't I?

That you might not like the suggestion is another matter.

There is good information, I agree. And it has been extremely diluted and polluted. As far as your links, I don't know...they are a bit obscured. But I do know there was excellent information contributed in the thread in spite of your posts, not because of them.

I didn't tell you how to live...I made a suggestion about how you might apologize......because I thought it would be nice, and deserved.

I'm done. :smile:

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

He has lied. He has posted dumb and false statements which are proof of idiocy and stupidity,

And with that lesson you are also now on ignore.

You say I'm on Ignore but I have no doubt you're reading my postings. In any event, you're overdue to read the forum rule shown below:

there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not.

All posts will be kept civil.​

 

[ronscuba]

I think video of case and leather options is a good idea.

Links from your site to your existing Youtube videos is very easy to do. For example you have a video on Mason cases. Link that from the Mason case section on your site. Same with the Butterfly cases, GTF, Flowers, etc..

I find the leather in this picture looks very nice.

 

[ronscuba]

Here is a link to the JB All Paul 2 case.

http://www.jbcases.com/allpaul2.html

I believe the pictures are relatively new to the site. Not sure if it's a new camera, different lighting or a different person taking the pictures. Overall, the pictures seem to be a step up over some others on the site. The case and leather looks great. To me the leather has a deep rich look to it.

 

[ronscuba]

So. Clearly there is no meaningful system of rating quality of leathers.

In the end it is the perception of the buyer that matters. Everybody has different expectations of leather and that is what must be satisfied. If you rely on somebody else to tell you then you are actually relying on their preference and not a quantitative analysis or rating of some sort.

So I guess the question becomes: What do you expect from leather?

Nice summary.

I like thick heavy leather. It gives me the old school sense of getting more for my money. I tend to dislike the plastic look or anything too shiny. I never did like patent leather shoes.

Quality craftsmanship and visually appealing design are 2 different things. A person can have one and not the other. Sometimes it takes 2 or more people in collaboration. Sometimes a person is gifted and has both.

 

[ronscuba]

Here is a Jack Justis case. Picture from Jack's site. Hope you don't mind Jack.

Beautiful case, photographed well. Case is angled creating photo depth, lighting is perfect. The case just looks classy and quality.

Jack's design style of clean lines is clearly shown. His pockets have well defined edges giving a box like look. His tooling symbols are straight, symmetrical and lined up with one another. The leather has a deep rich look to it. No bad surprises when you see one in person. They look as amazing as they do in this picture.

 

[bhale]

I like thick heavy leather. It gives me the old school sense of getting more for my money. I tend to dislike the plastic look or anything too shiny. I never did like patent leather shoes.

I couldn't agree more! :thumbup: From what i've learned so far, and i've got a LOT more to learn, i believe oil tanned leather is what your refering to, something like this



I'm still working out the details of my case but the non-shiny look is what i'm after. Now how thick do we want it to be? Is there a point where it's just too thick?

Brian

 

[Chopdoc]

Here is a Jack Justis case. Picture from Jack's site. Hope you don't mind Jack.

Beautiful case, photographed well. Case is angled creating photo depth, lighting is perfect. The case just looks classy and quality.

Jack's design style of clean lines is clearly shown. His pockets have well defined edges giving a box like look. His tooling symbols are straight, symmetrical and lined up with one another. The leather has a deep rich look to it. No bad surprises when you see one in person. They look as amazing as they do in this picture.

Now see that looks thin and stiff to me. Like cardboard.

 

[ronscuba]

I couldn't agree more! :thumbup: From what i've learned so far, and i've got a LOT more to learn, i believe oil tanned leather is what your refering to, something like this



I'm still working out the details of my case but the non-shiny look is what i'm after. Now how thick do we want it to be? Is there a point where it's just too thick?

Brian

I guess leather can be too thick if it prevents the maker from making the bends or shapes necessary. Weight can be a factor for some as well.

I think I would be willing to pay a little extra for heavier thicker leather, but everyone has a breaking point. If the cost goes from $600 to $1,200 or the case weight goes from 7 pounds to 14, uh, I think I might like the thinner leather :embarrassed2: