It depends...what is the screen size of your laptop. Also, was it "designed" for reading azforums? You might have to finish out this thread with the laptop now.
Question about APA rule and also a funny rule you might not know of.
- Thread starter spindoctor9
- Start date
It depends...what is the screen size of your laptop. Also, was it "designed" for reading azforums? You might have to finish out this thread with the laptop now.
Rewording would be nice since it's obvious from the posts that it's not 100% clear. And adding to the confusion is the fact that LO's have the opportunity to enact "local by-laws" that override the national rules. Anyone besides me think that local rules are insane? Doesn't it compromise the integrity of a national handicap system?
You want to simplify the rule. Let me take a couple of jabs at it:
1. Jump shots are not allowed in the APA.
Or...
2. Jump shots are allowed in the APA. You may use your playing cue or break cue but you are not allowed to break the cue down to jump.
Anyone?
I love it.
This is a great example of the problem I had brought up previously. If they don't want jump shots, then simply say "NO JUMP SHOTS". What seems to have happened is that they are addressing one problem with another problem. Don't *use* jump shots to address those other problems, and then handicap the jump shot. Instead solve the problem. We have all invested some time in this thread and come up with some decent ideas on the jump shot situation. I'm sure a group of people could invest some similar time and address the "accidental miscue or jump" situation instead. Saying the APA allows jump shots to combat another problem does not paint the APA as particularly intelligent to me.
Great post.
KMRUNOUT
This is also an excellent question, and gets right to the heart of the issue I brought up previously: what is the GOAL of the APA. What are their *intentions* in this matter.
ANother way to say it is "Since the APA does not allow the use of a break cue to jump, what specific qualities in a break cue do they take objection with?"
Is the objection to a break cue that it has a phenolic tip? Is it the weight, the shaft taper, etc.? Lots of break cues come with a leather tip, and many are no better jumping than a regular house cue. A girl on my team is just under 5' tall. She always jokes about how I (6'2") can jump with a regular cue but she has no chance, and jokingly asks if the APA is discriminating against short people!!
I'm glad you brought this up again for clarification, great post!
KMRUNOUT
If by MD you mean Mike Dechaine, he is a pro player that does not play in the APA. He was only mentioned because his regular shooting cue is a BK2 break cue (with 314-2 shaft).
And by the way Ghost, your previous post was awesome, thanks!
KMRUNOUT
You have captured the very essence of my questions. Its very nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I too am asking more out of curiosity than anything else, although I DO play APA, and see nothing wrong with knowing all my options.
KMRUNOUT
But it is kind of topical in that Mike Dechaine does work for an APA franchise in Massachusetts.
Maybe the question could be brought to his attention, and due to his prominence perhaps he could get an answer from St. Louis. He could cite his own cue as an example of the confusion surrounding this rule.
Why can who use a BK2 in APA? Was somebody given special permission to use one. I never heard of this before. WHen/where did this take place?
if you dont mind could you direct me to the info you are quoting ? i just went to the website and pulled up the team manual for 2012/2013.
i looked up the rules you are debating and it says word for word what i qouted from the 2011/2012 team manual i have here at the house.
could you help me understand what where he discrepancy is ? thanks .
I know Mike personally. He's played in my area for a long time, and I'm very involved in the APA here. To be honest, I really doubt he's given the question any consideration. Really, it doesn't impact him in the slightest. If people here wish, I will email or text him and get his thoughts.
KMRUNOUT
lorider,
Yes i would be happy to help. First off, I'm not sure if you have read all the posts in this thread. Way early on, APA Operator posted something about a very small but key distinction in the wording of the definition for "regular shooting cue". In the 2010-2012 rule book, it is exactly as you described:
"Any standard pool cue that is used to shoot the majority of shots in the match". The idea is that this definition means that it is the *frequency* of USE of the cue that makes it "regular". Basically what it implies is that ANY cue used to shoot more than 50% of the shots in the match IS a regular shooting cue. I could use a 10 oz. 40" long jump cue with a phenolic tip. As long as I shoot 50% of the shots in my match with it, it IS my regular shooting cue. As such, I should be able to use it for jump shots all I like.
In the 2013-2014 rule book, the wording now states:
"Any cue designed to shoot the majority of shots in a pool match." You see the slight difference? As APA Operator explained, this means that how often you use the cue is no longer a consideration, only that the cue is *intended* to be used for the majority of shots. So a Predator BK2, for example, would not satisfy this criteria, since it is obviously designed to be a break cue, and NOT a regular shooting cue.
I realize this is a slight change, but the meaning and implications are most definitely different.
Here is a link to the very newest rulebook:
http://www.poolplayers.com/documents/2012-Team-Manual-FINAL_LR.PDF
The definition of "regular shooting cue" is at the top of page 101 in the book.
Hope this helps. Let me know if this clarifies the distinction for you.
Thanks,
KMRUNOUT
elevencharlie
Registered
No you cant. Please refer to the below conversation I had with the APA last year to clarify.
Me: Gotta rules interpretation question for you. Am I allowed to use my full length jump break cue to jump with if I break with it and keep using only it for the whole match, never changing to another cue?
APA: The simple answer is no, you cannot use a specialty cue to attempt a jump shot, even if you were using the specialty cue for the entire match. Page 40 of the Official Team Manual, under Equipment, states, "Masse and jump shots are legal, when executed properly, but such shots must be attempted using a regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt masse or jump shots." Page 97 of the Official Team Manual defines Regular Shooting Cue as, "any standard pool cue used to shoot the majority of shots in a match." Specialty cues are not standard pool cues, and the rule states that jump shots must be attempted using a regular shooting.
Me: So a 58" 2 piece cue with a leather tip cannot be used to shoot the whole match with and jump with solely because the manufacturer states it's a jump break cue? It's the exact same construction as every other cue on the market, it just has a different tip on it. Does that mean if I forget to change to my regular cue after the break that I am shooting illegally because I am not using a "standard" cue?
APA:* The different tip is a major difference, and the reason why the cues are considered "specialty". You can shoot the entire match with it of you choose, although your game will probably suffer since the harder tip isn't ideal for regular shooting, but you cannot attempt a masse or jump shot with it.
Me: Gotta rules interpretation question for you. Am I allowed to use my full length jump break cue to jump with if I break with it and keep using only it for the whole match, never changing to another cue?
APA: The simple answer is no, you cannot use a specialty cue to attempt a jump shot, even if you were using the specialty cue for the entire match. Page 40 of the Official Team Manual, under Equipment, states, "Masse and jump shots are legal, when executed properly, but such shots must be attempted using a regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt masse or jump shots." Page 97 of the Official Team Manual defines Regular Shooting Cue as, "any standard pool cue used to shoot the majority of shots in a match." Specialty cues are not standard pool cues, and the rule states that jump shots must be attempted using a regular shooting.
Me: So a 58" 2 piece cue with a leather tip cannot be used to shoot the whole match with and jump with solely because the manufacturer states it's a jump break cue? It's the exact same construction as every other cue on the market, it just has a different tip on it. Does that mean if I forget to change to my regular cue after the break that I am shooting illegally because I am not using a "standard" cue?
APA:* The different tip is a major difference, and the reason why the cues are considered "specialty". You can shoot the entire match with it of you choose, although your game will probably suffer since the harder tip isn't ideal for regular shooting, but you cannot attempt a masse or jump shot with it.
Last year? That's an eternity in APA rules interpretation. I could never get the same answer week to week when I played. Our LO had a local by-laws document that was kind of like Bigfoot. There were folks who believed it existed but I could never find any hard evidence of an actual sighting. But it was frequently referenced in regional tournaments.
In an ideal world, the entire rule book would be re-thought, re-written, and shortened to about half it's current size. And local by-laws would be a thing of the past. But I'm not holding my breath...
I don't believe the APA has a valid enough reason. As much as I hate the TAP league, it allows jump cues and I NEVER saw these problems the APA is dreaming up. As a matter of fact, I never saw anyone ranked lower than an SL6 using a jump cue. 99% of jump cues used were by SL7s.
As you can see how much confusion this jump cue rule has caused, one would think the APA would just allow jump cues. And God Almighty, any APA captain who would even allow his SL2 to touch a jump cues should not be playing pool. Or better yet, any APA official who would think this needs to have his/her head examined.
APA has so many dinky stupid rules it is truely amazing. And what is worse is the 'localization' of rules, creating even more confusion.
This is why I prefer the Masters league. BTW, in the Masters league, 90% of the jump shots taken with jump cues are by SL7s.
The point exactly...
The APA reasoning as explained to me was... The jump cue / specialty cue gives the higher skill level players yet another advantage over the lower skill levels who the system is designed for. You are correct that most of the jump cues used would be by SL 6 or 7's,,, APA doesn't want them to have the added advantage that lower SL can not make use of. Hence no push out in 9 ball... Benefits the higher SL. Your reasoning why it should be allowed is exactly why it is not allowed.
Food for thought... What percentage of the 280,000 APA members that participate in open team play are Senior Skill Level (6 or above) players?
The number I was quoted was less than 5%... That means less than 14,000 of 280,000 players are SL 6 or above. Do you blame the APA for not catering to us? 95% or 266,000 of 280,000 players play @ a SL 5 or below. It's just good business to protect them and keep them happy.
Have a great day everyone!
The APA reasoning as explained to me was... The jump cue / specialty cue gives the higher skill level players yet another advantage over the lower skill levels who the system is designed for. You are correct that most of the jump cues used would be by SL 6 or 7's,,, APA doesn't want them to have the added advantage that lower SL can not make use of. Hence no push out in 9 ball... Benefits the higher SL. Your reasoning why it should be allowed is exactly why it is not allowed.
Food for thought... What percentage of the 280,000 APA members that participate in open team play are Senior Skill Level (6 or above) players?
The number I was quoted was less than 5%... That means less than 14,000 of 280,000 players are SL 6 or above. Do you blame the APA for not catering to us? 95% or 266,000 of 280,000 players play @ a SL 5 or below. It's just good business to protect them and keep them happy.
Have a great day everyone!
Not sure if this was said but i find this funny. "cue ball is NOT allowed to leave the playing surface if it does its ball in hand" Now isnt jumping a ball considered leaving the playing surface?
APA didn't imagine the scenario. They received complaints from host locations, multiple host locations across the country, that "APA players are damaging our equipment with jump cues." There are a few options to address this complaint:
1) Tell the location that we already defer to house rules on jump and masse shots, and that they need to police what happens in their own location. While technically correct, this does nothing to help the relationship with locations, or to prevent future complaints from other locations.
2) Attempt to get everyone to agree on who should or should not be allowed to use a jump cue. Good luck with that, and since it's practically impossible it doesn't address the concerns of the locations.
3) Outlaw jump shots. That brings into play the issue of accidental jumps and jumps that are intentional but undetectable or nearly undetectable. This would probably appease locations but would create controversy on league night between players who have probably had a few.
4) Outlaw jump cues. This actually has eliminated the complaints from host locations and at the same time avoided the controversy surrounding whether a shot was or was not a jump shot. Yes, you can do more damage trying to jump with a regular cue, but very few lesser skilled players even try that. The only question that remains is what constitutes a jump cue (that question exists no matter how you define a jump cue), and it's only an issue away from league play and only with people who think the rules should always be 100% black and white. For everyone else, if you're not sure whether a specific cue qualifies as a jump cue, just don't shoot jump shots with it during league play.
You know that the APA players could also assit in inforcing house rules. Beyond that, if the pool hall doesn't like it, then maybe they don't need the APA. Now this may be a problem in a small town (BUT I SERIOULSY DOUBT IT IF NOBODY IS JUMPING and I think you are feeding me a line about receiving all those complaints), but in Maryland if the pool hall becomes too arrogant, the APA pool players have been known to move to another location. And the arrogant pool hall learns to really regret this rather fast when it loses all its business generated by the leagues.
I think your view of teams in a league is slightly idealistic. Ideally, the APA wouldn't have to be involved in resolution of this issue at all. Teams and players are expected to observe house rules, but in reality many of them do not even bother to find out what the house rules are. It's just a fact of life that not everyone keeps themselves as informed as they should, and decades as an operator have convinced me that this isn't going to change any time soon.
I also don't think it's unreasonable for a location to be concerned about the condition of their equipment. I certainly wouldn't consider that arrogance. The position that "if you're not happy that we disregard your house rules, we'll go someplace else and you'll regret it" seems a bit arrogant itself.
Reality is often less than ideal, and sometimes a different answer is just more practical and less confrontational. APA decided to prohibit jump cues and jumping with just your shaft, and since most players don't even consider a jump shot without a jump cue the issue with the locations went away. Not the ideal solution, but far more practical and less confrontational than the alternatives.
I want to know how you can have 8 pages of people try to figure out how to get away with jumping with a break/jump cue?!?