Question about draw "english"
- Thread starter Aoperator
- Start date
Draw is more about your stroke than about the kind of equipment you use. A medium to hard tip combined with the proper stroke will get you all the draw you need. The best cue, tip, ferrule and anything else won't help if you don't have the right stroke for the job.
Steve
Steve
i never really got into cues, tips and joints that much but i have a soft tip on one cue and a hard tip on another and i love the soft tip much better for english and draw but my advice on this subject is limited.
I can draw the ball two lengths of my 9' table with my Predator break cue and I can do the same thing with my Budweiser banger cue. While equipment does have something to do with it, I think the majority of the equation has to do with the mechanics of your stroke. If I gave a custom wizz bang cue to a novice and then gave a cheap house cue to a pro, which one could pull off two table lengths of draw first? .02
Couldn't have said it better if i knew the difference in hits of each tip, ferrule etc... TX Poolnut.
It's about the stroke, not the equipment!
Aoperator...Equipment has NO bearing on the ability to draw the CB. It's ALL about the quality of your stroke. As was said in another post, an expert player with a beautiful, smooth stroke can draw the CB easily, even with a house cue. There is no combination of shaft/ferrule/tip that provides better action than another, without the expertise to know how to use it properly.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Aoperator said:
Aoperator...Equipment has NO bearing on the ability to draw the CB. It's ALL about the quality of your stroke. As was said in another post, an expert player with a beautiful, smooth stroke can draw the CB easily, even with a house cue. There is no combination of shaft/ferrule/tip that provides better action than another, without the expertise to know how to use it properly.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I realize that the stroke is the main thing. I played pool as a young man, for about 5 years, but haven't played hardly any until I purchased my own table a few months ago. I am still trying to get the old "eye" back.
The one thing I can vividly remember from my earlier days is that I could never consistently draw the ball as well as others, but on one ocassion I had a shot on the right rail at the far end of the table. Being right handed I slipped the cue behind my back and was going to apply just enough draw to stop the ball or back it up slightly. I hit the shot and drew the ball the entire lenght of the table with a medium stroke. I was astonished but never could figure out what made be able to do this from that awkward position when I could never do it when I was really trying my hardest.
The one thing I can vividly remember from my earlier days is that I could never consistently draw the ball as well as others, but on one ocassion I had a shot on the right rail at the far end of the table. Being right handed I slipped the cue behind my back and was going to apply just enough draw to stop the ball or back it up slightly. I hit the shot and drew the ball the entire lenght of the table with a medium stroke. I was astonished but never could figure out what made be able to do this from that awkward position when I could never do it when I was really trying my hardest.
I test my tips on my table since I put them on myself.Aoperator said:
A thinned-out hard pressed tip with a dime shape makes putting ANY english on the cueball easier.
Sure, the stroke is the FOUNDATION of getting juice on the ball as others said.
But, a hard tip with a dime shape instead of a flatter nickel makes it EASIER to get english on the ball.
I think the advice you've received so far is right on the mark - it's really the stroke that counts. That said, the equipment does have some effect I believe, not much, but some. A harder tip and lower squirt shaft should give you a little more spin. Some say that a more flexible shaft has the same effect. But I think the differences are small compared to other factors.Aoperator said:
When you unexpectedly drew the ball back a table length, it's likely that you just hit lower than normal on the cue ball. Maybe you had a general tendency to drop your elbow but didn't do so in the altered position. Maybe you never really tested the limits to see how low you can hit without miscuing, and happened to hit very low in this instance.
You may have also changed your stroke dynamic from decelerating to accelerating "through" the cueball, or at least not decelerating as much. This results in greater cue speed at the moment of impact and is why people recommend having a good follow through. You may have brought this about by gripping the cue further back toward the butt cap or by altering your muscle timing. But it doesn't take a great deal of cue speed to draw a table's length when the balls are within a diamond or less of each other.
When you're not looking to get maximum draw, hitting lower and slower will produce more consistent results than hitting higher and harder when playing with different cueballs that are mismatched in weight to the object balls.
Jim
For those who say equipment does not matter, please draw your cue ball with a phenolic tipped cue which has a quarter shape!
I found that a dime shaped very soft tip works best for draw. But this will not hold its shape. I get excellent results with a Moori Q (hard) tip (Hard tip needs less reshaping).
You can draw with anything. The problem is getting a *consistent* draw. i.e. being able to draw back 6 inches, 1 ft., 2 ft., 1/2 table, etc. And do this every time. I alway keep my tip a dime shape and lightly sand it with a sandpaper shaper (all I do - no tip tapping, etc.) at least once a week. Also before tournaments or if playing alot.
So I *always* have a consistent shape and surface on my tip. I feel this goes a long way toward helping me to be more consistent with exact distance drawbacks. Of course once you have a consistent tip, then it can take a year or more of daily draw practice to get to be fairly consistent.
Also I do go through more tips by resurfacing my tips often - they last about 6 months. But I have no problem doing this as I feel the tip is the most important part of the cue. Also I can replace my own tips with the tools I got and have a spare shaft. So I can be switching the tip on one shaft while using the other.
I found that a dime shaped very soft tip works best for draw. But this will not hold its shape. I get excellent results with a Moori Q (hard) tip (Hard tip needs less reshaping).
You can draw with anything. The problem is getting a *consistent* draw. i.e. being able to draw back 6 inches, 1 ft., 2 ft., 1/2 table, etc. And do this every time. I alway keep my tip a dime shape and lightly sand it with a sandpaper shaper (all I do - no tip tapping, etc.) at least once a week. Also before tournaments or if playing alot.
So I *always* have a consistent shape and surface on my tip. I feel this goes a long way toward helping me to be more consistent with exact distance drawbacks. Of course once you have a consistent tip, then it can take a year or more of daily draw practice to get to be fairly consistent.
Also I do go through more tips by resurfacing my tips often - they last about 6 months. But I have no problem doing this as I feel the tip is the most important part of the cue. Also I can replace my own tips with the tools I got and have a spare shaft. So I can be switching the tip on one shaft while using the other.
P.S. Look at the following high speed video of a draw shot. Notice how the tip "dents in". This is why I think I got better results when trying a very soft (brand new not compressed from use) Elk Master tip - it compressed more and had more surface contacting the cue ball. And a very hard phenolic tip would not do this. Would probably tend to miscue or slip off the ball.
Draw shot...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm
Draw shot...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm
Scott Lee said:
You must play with different house cues than I Scott.
The physical properties of the tip, in so far as how it holds chalk and its effectiveness in gripping to the CB is VERY important.
I'm very surprised that you would say that equiptment has NO bearing Scott. You ever tried drawing a table length with a square shaped cardboard/rock tip that comes standard with some rack cues?
What does the CB know about smooth anyway? It knows velocity, point of impact, mass of colliding object and amount of grip/friction.
The argument for a hard tip potentially yielding more spin is that its contact time is shorter. This allows a greater average tip offset before miscue territory is reached as the ball begins to rotate. And generally speaking, the magnitude of the friction force is independent of the size of the contact area.Billy_Bob said:
However, it's friction that produces spin and it might be better to think of it not in terms of tip offset but in terms of the friction itself.
With a larger contact area, the friction force is distributed over that larger area. This area should thus be able to handle a larger force without breaking down (less shear stress). The question then is what happens during a miscue. Is it the chalk/ball interface, or the chalk medium itself, or the chalk/tip interface that fails?
If it's chalk/ball or chalk/chalk, then a softer tip with its greater contact area and contact time should produce more spin. It can handle the larger forces that occur at greater tip offsets.
But if it's the chalk/ball interface that fails, then it's not so clear. It could be that the harder tip resists this break-down better, perhaps enough to more than compensate for the smaller area?
Unless someone has an ironclad argument one way or the other, or there are enough counter experiences, I suspect you're right about the softer tip (contrary to what I indicated earlier).
Jim
Colin Colenso said:
Colin...What I meant is exactly what the original poster questioned. The ability to get action on the CB is related to mechanics (albeit some conditions must exist...i.e: round tip, good chalk), not which tip, shaft or ferrule you have. It continues to amaze me how many people are fooled into thinking 'this tip' draws better than 'that tip'. Nonsense, imo. Although there has been some technological advances in cues, if you have no stroke, it won't matter what tip/shaft/ferrule you use.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Billy_Bob said:
Billy_Bob...This is ridiculous.
Phenolic tips are made for breaking only, not finesse stroke play. A player with a good stroke can STILL draw the CB with a tip you describe, but certainly not as well as a normal leather tip, rounded, and chalked.Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
pooltchr said:
Exactly.
My Break cue has an ultra hard Water Buffalo tip on it and I can still get full pool table draw with it. With my 314 w/Morri tip I can get full table nd back....
It's a finese stroke.
The largest inpact the tip has is its shape. When you draw the ball, even with a very level stroke, the cue ball is contacted near the edge of your tip. The rounder your tip, dime, nickle or whatever, the closer the center of your cue contacts the cue ball. This results in a lower contact point on the cue ball. The lower, the more spin, and it increases mathimatically as you get farther from the center. A good level stroke and a low contact point results in the best backspin.Scott Lee said:
The cue tip and cue does make a difference, but not by any large margin, so long as the cue is straight and the tip is rounded and holds chalk. One might be able to draw the cueball a foot farther with a 314 than they would with a dufferin house cue. Deflection plays a role in it. But either way, you won't notice a difference in how well a cue can perform for you until you learn how to perform with a cue.