Question about kicking

mattman

mattman

Registered User
Silver Member
I have never read a book or watched any videos on kicking until recently. I have been watching "Little" Joe Villalpando's video on kicking and wow...what a system. This may sound like a stupid question, but here goes.

Is the less banks involved in a kick, the more predictable the shot? By this I mean, all things being equal (clear paths) is it better always better to use less rails as possible? Can a two or three rail kick be more predictable or more importantly have more room for error compared to a simple one rail kick?

Should I be kicked in the n*ts for asking such a question?

Please don't bash me too hard on this one....hey...we're all learning here.

Mattman
 
I'm no expert, but I've been told by a few people that 2 and 3 rail kicks are in many cases more reliable than 1 railers.
 
i never read anything either, etc. but for whatever reason I bought his videos(probably because we ran around for a little while back in the day). Anyways they are great, it was a good move,

to answere your question about less rails, no not awalys it all depends on the shot. There is no general rule or fact that 2 rails is easier than 3, the shot usually dictates how many rails you need. You dont have a choice when its a 3 rail shot you use 3, 2 rails probably isnt there. Most of the time the shot tells you how many rails and that comes with experience. Personally for me when I was starting out(i'm assuming your a C player) I liked 3 rail anything better than 2 rail shots and still do. One rail is easier than more rails most of the time than more rails, but again it depends on the shot if the 1 rail shot aint there it isnt an option, if there is a 2 & 3 rail option its a good bet one of the choices is very hard and the other isnt as hard the 2 rail might be easy and the 3 super tough or it could be the oppsite-again the correct shot didtates what you have to do, looking for the best % chance is your job and that comes with experience. Also Kicking is usually where multiple rails comes in not shot making. One pocket is where Joes videos are most important, the principals are the same but utilized on 50% of your shots there is a rail or 3 involved.

Since its 1-1 playing Jay I can still give advice on banking, if he beats me next time then I cant post anything on banks, but never fear Fatboy is here and Jay has no shot. ;)
 
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mattman said:
I have never read a book or watched any videos on kicking until recently. I have been watching "Little" Joe Villalpando's video on kicking and wow...what a system. This may sound like a stupid question, but here goes.

Is the less banks involved in a kick, the more predictable the shot? By this I mean, all things being equal (clear paths) is it better always better to use less rails as possible? Can a two or three rail kick be more predictable or more importantly have more room for error compared to a simple one rail kick?

Should I be kicked in the n*ts for asking such a question?

Please don't bash me too hard on this one....hey...we're all learning here.

Mattman
Click to expand...

No, it's a good question.

It tends to get harder as you add rails. The idea behind choosing a two rail kick versus a one rail kick if both are an option is to use the one that leaves you the most likely safe.

Kicking takes a ton of practice, but it's well worth doing. A player who can't kick is nearly helpless in the safety game.

Chris
 
mattman said:
I have never read a book or watched any videos on kicking until recently. I have been watching "Little" Joe Villalpando's video on kicking and wow...what a system. This may sound like a stupid question, but here goes.

Is the less banks involved in a kick, the more predictable the shot? By this I mean, all things being equal (clear paths) is it better always better to use less rails as possible? Can a two or three rail kick be more predictable or more importantly have more room for error compared to a simple one rail kick?

Should I be kicked in the n*ts for asking such a question?

Please don't bash me too hard on this one....hey...we're all learning here.

Mattman
Click to expand...

I've heard that sometimes it is better to go two or three rails than to go one rail if the ball is in the corner. The reason being that the ball is bigger.

Meaning that your chances of hitting it increase because you have a chance of hitting it coming in and going out. IMO
 
Fatboy said:
i never read anything either, etc. but for whatever reason I bought his videos(probably because we ran around for a little while back in the day). Anyways they are great, it was a good move,

to answere your question about less rails, no not awalys it all depends on the shot. There is no general rule or fact that 2 rails is easier than 3, the shot usually dictates how many rails you need. You dont have a choice when its a 3 rail shot you use 3, 2 rails probably isnt there. Most of the time the shot tells you how many rails and that comes with experience. Personally for me when I was starting out(i'm assuming your a C player) I liked 3 rail anything better than 2 rail shots and still do. One rail is easier than more rails most of the time than more rails, but again it depends on the shot if the 1 rail shot aint there it isnt an option, if there is a 2 & 3 rail option its a good bet one of the choices is very hard and the other isnt as hard the 2 rail might be easy and the 3 super tough or it could be the oppsite-again the correct shot didtates what you have to do, looking for the best % chance is your job and that comes with experience. Also Kicking is usually where multiple rails comes in not shot making. One pocket is where Joes videos are most important, the principals are the same but utilized on 50% of your shots there is a rail or 3 involved.

Since its 1-1 playing Jay I can still give advice on banking, if he beats me next time then I cant post anything on banks, but never fear Fatboy is here and Jay has no shot. ;)
Click to expand...

Take a look next time you come in the poolroom. That will be me waiting by the table for you, cue in hand. Fatboy, I'm there every day, watching the door, hoping you will come in today. Maybe today will be my lucky day. :)
 
PKM said:
I'm no expert, but I've been told by a few people that 2 and 3 rail kicks are in many cases more reliable than 1 railers.
Click to expand...

I don't know why, but I surely agree with that. It's just easier to use 2 or 3 rails than 1 rail. To me, it seems that using 1 rail will get the CB hit the rail thicker, it effect the CB more, and change the natural angle. So when I use 1 rail, I almost always use a little english. To me, the shot will be more reliable using english, when using 1 rail.
 
klockdoc said:
I've heard that sometimes it is better to go two or three rails than to go one rail if the ball is in the corner. The reason being that the ball is bigger.

Meaning that your chances of hitting it increase because you have a chance of hitting it coming in and going out. IMO
Click to expand...


I agree with Klockdoc, and here are a few examples...

Look at this shot - and we will look at different ways of making it...

2 Rails
Though this is a good option, the 8 is still what I would call a "small ball" or small target. Our margin of error is still larger than I would want it to be, but we can look at other options.

CueTable Help


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1 Rail

In this shot, the margin of error is even greater. We need to hit the 8 at a precise contact point, and IMO, this is still a small ball.

CueTable Help


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2 Rails

In this shot, the 8 ball is a bigger ball, and making it does not require as much accuracy as the last two shots.

CueTable Help



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In this shot, the blue line indicates the one rail route, which is much more difficult that the 2 rail kick indicated by the grey line...

CueTable Help

 
Kicking a ball is highly underestimated. People do what they like and "feel".
I have worked a lot on different kicking systems and the main reason to choose between 1, 2, 3 or more rails is made on things that could happen when you hit a ball .
I tried to get a cuetable inserted but don't know how.

P


Now, to kick the one-ball you have about 5 options with all different amount of rails and different posibilities of how the balls will end up after contact.
This is alway's discusable but in general I will give my point of view.

Normal q-ball= one rail: possible scratch (middle), difficult to get good hit and good speed (angle of the rail depends on speed). Object ball and q-ball likely to end up not far from each other.

Q-ball A= 3 rails: easy kick as this is a standaard 3 rail. With hit to thin, object ball to middle and q=ball to bottom. Lots of good things can happen.

Q-ball B=2 rails: Difficult to aim at blind side, hitting objectball will most likely give the game away.

Q-ball 6=2 rails: Hard to reach (over stretch) hitting the object ball has not that many good things that can happen.

Q-ball 7= 2 rails: close to pocket so lots of diviation at the rails. if hit then good option on potting it in the middle.

So looking at this situation most pro's will choose the q-ball A 3-rails option.
And sometimes the q-ball 7 one.
 
Blackjack said:
I agree with Klockdoc, and here are a few examples...

Look at this shot - and we will look at different ways of making it...

2 Rails
Though this is a good option, the 8 is still what I would call a "small ball" or small target. Our margin of error is still larger than I would want it to be, but we can look at other options.

CueTable Help


.
.
.
1 Rail

In this shot, the margin of error is even greater. We need to hit the 8 at a precise contact point, and IMO, this is still a small ball.

CueTable Help


.
.
.
2 Rails

In this shot, the 8 ball is a bigger ball, and making it does not require as much accuracy as the last two shots.

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

I also like to add the point that some pro's will shoot it past the middle pocket with right spin to have a straighter line from the rail towards the 8-ball making the ball bigger. (if q-ball is from the rail they will usualy apply backspin to bend the q-ball of the rail.
 
berry said:
I also like to add the point that some pro's will shoot it past the middle pocket with right spin to have a straighter line from the rail towards the 8-ball making the ball bigger. (if q-ball is from the rail they will usualy apply backspin to bend the q-ball of the rail.
Click to expand...
More rails is a good rule of thumb.

Berry,
On new cloth and new balls reverse english bank is pretty squirrly and the english remains, reversing on the 2nd rail the . On typical equipment, used balls and old dirty cloth, reverse is just difficult. Table condititions play too much into this ty of shot.

As always less side spin generaly simplifies shots. You can shorten the angle by 1/2 diamond with simple draw off the rail. 1/2 diamond is the reference point.
 
I agree on that! But the q-ball is at the rail in this example making it hard to give it draw... LOL.
 
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Alright...thanks for the input everyone. It seems pretty much the answer is....depends all on the shot. Are there other videos/books anybody would like to recommend on the subject of kicking? I have been practicing the last couple days. I think I am doing well with my speed control on kicking, but need to work more on accurate tip position. To answer an earlier post, I would rate myself as being either a c+ or b- player.

Thanks again,
Mattman
 
The "big ball" concept isn't that one particular kicking path is better than another. It's that when the target ball is near a corner there's a range of paths that will work, like this:

CueTable Help



The ball isn't bigger when you use any single one of these paths; it's bigger because they all work.

pj
chgo
 
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Kicking using more rails than one usually will allow you to put distance between the cue ball and the object you are trying to hit after you contact it. Two or more rails is sometimes easier to control both balls rather than long distance one rail kicks. JMO.

Southpaw
 
mattman said:
... It seems pretty much the answer is....depends all on the shot. Are there other videos/books anybody would like to recommend on the subject of kicking?
Click to expand...

Mattman ... one key in my mind is to know many different kick shots / routes . There are times when I look at a kick and know what my best shot is, and others I weight the options of 1 vs 2 vs 3 rails etc. One key element is what side of the object ball you would ideally like to hit. Of course many times the choice is based on "what's my best chance to hit that flipping ball ?".

Seach for AZ member DeadAim, who posted very few times but his "Kicking Academy" series (8 posts, some quite long, all include diagrams) is one of the all time classic AZ posts. He shows many of the classic routes, and includes some little known compensations, as well as a few esoteric kicking routes.

Also, Bob Hennings The Pro Book has a section on kick shots, and a section on kick-safetys if you really want to make things interesting.

Have fun MattMan.

Dave, loves to kick things
 
DaveK said:
Mattman ... one key in my mind is to know many different kick shots / routes . There are times when I look at a kick and know what my best shot is, and others I weight the options of 1 vs 2 vs 3 rails etc. One key element is what side of the object ball you would ideally like to hit. Of course many times the choice is based on "what's my best chance to hit that flipping ball ?".

Seach for AZ member DeadAim, who posted very few times but his "Kicking Academy" series (8 posts, some quite long, all include diagrams) is one of the all time classic AZ posts. He shows many of the classic routes, and includes some little known compensations, as well as a few esoteric kicking routes.

Also, Bob Hennings The Pro Book has a section on kick shots, and a section on kick-safetys if you really want to make things interesting.

Have fun MattMan.

Dave, loves to kick things
Click to expand...


I have that lesson in a .pdf file - if anybody wants it, I can send it them... just send me an e-mail at blkjackds12@yahoo.com and I'll send it right out to you.
 
DaveK said:
Seach for AZ member DeadAim, who posted very few times but his "Kicking Academy" series (8 posts, some quite long, all include diagrams) is one of the all time classic AZ posts. He shows many of the classic routes, and includes some little known compensations, as well as a few esoteric kicking routes.
Click to expand...

As Blackjack mentioned in another post about these threads, I also think they are some of the better or best instructional threads on AZB. I still find myself referring to them from time to time.

Craig
 
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