Question about pre flag chalk

SeanC said:
Here's my take on it. It's not about pre-flag vs. post-flag. They are probably same formulation as skip from tweeten confirms it.

However, as the chalk gets older, it tends to get drier. The drier the chalk gets, fine particulates will crack into finer ones at a very small scale, and this will result in a more even and smooth coating when you chalk the tip.

This creates the illusion that pre-flag was a different formulation than the post-flag. I think old Masters coats similar to Blue Diamond, and there is certainly a difference between Blue Diamond/pre-flag and the newer post-flag Masters.
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Very creative explaintion.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what it is. An "explaination" that was created.

The cold hard fact is: it has nothing to do with being 'finer'.

The technical term would be particle size. If it were actually about particle size,
we would all be chalking up with grandma's face powder, or baby powder.

Drier is better, usually, but if it were only about being drier, there are
several readily available home appliances that are fully capable of
making chalk as dry as any part of the Sahara you might care to choose.

The alleged different formulation may be an illusion, but the performance
isn't. Perhaps something was changed in the process??

I don't have any problem getting newer Masters to "coat" well.

My supply of Masters Blue was acquired WAY pre-Flag, circa 1991.

I'm not a champion, just like I'm not an Analytical Chemist. But I play
well enough to tell the difference. Granted, on a dry day, with the heat on,
maybe not all that much. But, on a hot, humid August night, or a rainy
day, the difference is serious.

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
Very creative explaintion.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what it is. An "explaination" that was created.

The cold hard fact is: it has nothing to do with being 'finer'.

The technical term would be particle size. If it were actually about particle size,
we would all be chalking up with grandma's face powder, or baby powder.

Drier is better, usually, but if it were only about being drier, there are
several readily available home appliances that are fully capable of
making chalk as dry as any part of the Sahara you might care to choose.

The alleged different formulation may be an illusion, but the performance
isn't. Perhaps something was changed in the process??

I don't have any problem getting newer Masters to "coat" well.

My supply of Masters Blue was acquired WAY pre-Flag, circa 1991.

I'm not a champion, just like I'm not an Analytical Chemist. But I play
well enough to tell the difference. Granted, on a dry day, with the heat on,
maybe not all that much. But, on a hot, humid August night, or a rainy
day, the difference is serious.

Dale
Click to expand...

I didn't say anywhere that it was "only" about particle size, or it was "only" about being drier, etc. I believe all these facts coming together makes a better "billiard" chalk.

However, you stated that it was a "cold hard fact" that it didn't have anything to do with being finer. I think you must have some sort of evidence to call this a "cold hard fact". By the same logic, a chalk with macrometer size particles, instead of micrometer scale ones, would have no appreciable difference. Do you believe this being the case?

I am not a champion either, but provided an explanation why I think there is a difference based on my experience dealing with behavior of matter in my professional life.

What is your explanation why pre-flag is better, other than stating the obvious that it is better?
 
It was my understanding that there was lead in the green chalk, or dye, that had to be removed. This was right around the same time the flag went on. Probably two seperate unrelated instances, but I still like preflag green.
:p
 
I prefer the pre-flag myself. It seems more consistent from cube to cube. I have a half gross of pre-flag and it's the same from cube to cube. I have several gross of flagged masters and in those boxes the cubes seem to vary considerably. Some are seem softer and cake on the tip while some is harder and doesn't chalk well. I don't think its a different formula though.
 
Im a Believer

I just got a gross of pre-flag and I could tell the differance as soon as I put it on. It went on smoother and seemed to stay on my tip better. The poor mans Kamui.
Now, Im smart enough to know that it wont help me with my reverse cut shot sighting problem that I have but I think it does give you a microscopic edge over the flagg stuff.
I have some extra< P.M me for details.
 
SLIM...You got the straight scoop, from the horse's mouth! There is no difference.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SLIM said:
i am not looking to argue with anyone about this.

I would just like to know where people get their information about the difference between pre & post flag chalk.

I used to sell billiard supplies between 1980 & 1990 & i still have a couple of gross of pre flag chalk. (i do not want to sell it).

The information i was given by skip at TWEETEN is that there is no difference in the formula between pre & post flag chalk.
TWEETEN just wanted to pay a patriotic tribute after 9/11/01 & started putting the flag on the wrapper at that time.

any information would be appreciated.

Thanks,

SLIM
Click to expand...
 
SeanC said:
I didn't say anywhere that it was "only" about particle size, or it was "only" about being drier, etc. I believe all these facts coming together makes a better "billiard" chalk.

However, you stated that it was a "cold hard fact" that it didn't have anything to do with being finer. I think you must have some sort of evidence to call this a "cold hard fact". By the same logic, a chalk with macrometer size particles, instead of micrometer scale ones, would have no appreciable difference. Do you believe this being the case?

I am not a champion either, but provided an explanation why I think there is a difference based on my experience dealing with behavior of matter in my professional life.

What is your explanation why pre-flag is better, other than stating the obvious that it is better?
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You stated a conjecture, based on mis-information, and ill informed
opinion, that I demonstrated was incorrect.

The 'cold hard fact' is that Blue Master performed "better" in 1991 or 1981,
than it does today, especially in high humidity.

You can dry out the current version - you can spread it on smoothly,
it still performs differently, as in worse, than the previous product.


If I knew why that was, I would rush out and open my own chalk factory.

Did you see the comment about process?

My OPINION is, there is something different in the chemical makeup of
the current ingredients.

As mentioned by others - that could be possible even if the 'formula'
has not been changed.

Dale
 
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This is the type of comments that i am questioning

rayjay said:
it was my understanding that there was lead in the green chalk, or dye, that had to be removed. This was right around the same time the flag went on. Probably two seperate unrelated instances, but i still like preflag green.
:p
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rayjay,

sorry to point you out but what i would like to know is where did this information about lead in master chalk come from?
Did it come from someone who would know for a fact that there was lead in green masters?

SLIM
 
pdcue said:
You stated a conjecture, based on mis-information, and ill informed
opinion, that I demonstrated was incorrect.
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First of all, I stated my opinion. I have no problem you calling it a conjecture :shrug:

Second, what misinformation are you talking about exactly in my original post that led you to call it an "ill-informed" one? Seriously, let's hear it.

Finally, what exactly did you demonstrate and where? Or, are you talking about your own conjecture? :rolleyes:

pdcue said:
The 'cold hard fact' is that Blue Master performed "better" in 1991 or 1981,
than it does today, especially in high humidity.
Click to expand...

Really? Read your first post again. You said it was a "cold hard fact" that it didn't have anything to do with particle size. Not that Pre-flag performed better in 1991 or 1981 than it does today. I would have agreed if otherwise...

pdcue said:
You can dry out the current version - you can spread it on smoothly,
it still performs differently, as in worse, than the previous product.
Click to expand...

Unless you actually did this, I mean you took a post flag Masters and waited 10+ years of natural drying, etc. this is nothing but a speculation :shrug:

pdcue said:
If I knew why that was, I would rush out and open my own chalk factory.

Did you see the comment about process?

My OPINION is, there is something different in the chemical makeup of
the current ingredients.

As mentioned by others - that could be possible even if the 'formula'
has not been changed.
Click to expand...

Huh? So you're saying, in your OPINION, not as a cold hard fact, that the chemical makeup of current ingredients is different, but the formula is still the same?

lol... The chemical makeup of the ingredients IS the FORMULA. Get it?

At least my conjecture doesn't contradict neither itself, nor the statement by skip at TWEETEN.

Try again...
 
SLIM said:
rayjay,

sorry to point you out but what i would like to know is where did this information about lead in master chalk come from?
Did it come from someone who would know for a fact that there was lead in green masters?

SLIM
Click to expand...

I read it in one of the many incarnations of this same post, sometime back, here on azb, where everyone knows their facts!:grin: Seems like I vaguely remember some substantiated public documents were found showing EPA giving Tweeten a year to remove the lead in Oct. '00 and it was done by Sept. '01. My guess is they passed this on to the dyemaker they were buying their dyes from. Besides, I don't have to chalk up as much and can go further out on the edge and never miscue!
:p
 
Titanium Dioxide in paint has been there forever.
It is what gives it opacity (abilityto cover). Without it, it would take 10 coats of Paint to look good.
it is a powder, and like most powders, can cause Cancer if inhaled in large quanities.
lead however has been replaced, and is a health hazard.
It seem that lead would have made things spread easier. A useful thing in Chalk.
I don;t kow how this relates to pre flag, as lead has been removed a long time before 2001.
ctyhntr said:
Its my understanding that the EPA banned lead in the manufacture of paint, dyes, and pigments. Lead wasn't directly mixed in to the chalk. The lead came from the dye used for coloring the chalk. So, just because the dye manufacturers stopped using lead, didn't mean Tweeten stop using their existing suppliers.

FWIW, lead in paints have been replaced by titanium dioxide. Its the main blocking agent in sunscreen. Studies now show that it increases cancer risks in mice. Just like when we replaced sugar with saccharin.

You are correct, the American flag was place as a patriotic gesture in response to 9/11.
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Lead was in the dye that gave the chalk color. You answered your own question why people like pre-flag. It coated smoother.


Marcl3954 said:
Titanium Dioxide in paint has been there forever.
It is what gives it opacity (abilityto cover). Without it, it would take 10 coats of Paint to look good.
it is a powder, and like most powders, can cause Cancer if inhaled in large quanities.
lead however has been replaced, and is a health hazard.
It seem that lead would have made things spread easier. A useful thing in Chalk.
I don;t kow how this relates to pre flag, as lead has been removed a long time before 2001.
Click to expand...
 
You know I have some Pre Flag Master Green, and some with FLAG MASTER GREEN. The Older Chalk is a lighter GREEN, but I found (4) Cubes with FLAG GREEN in the Car in a ZIP LOCK that sat in the 100-120 DEGREE SUMMER HEAT this past summer. It too is lighter GREEN than the stuff in the house that is at 78 degrees or cooler all the time. Maye the older stuff just got lighter with age?
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
You know I have some Pre Flag Master Green, and some with FLAG MASTER GREEN. The Older Chalk is a lighter GREEN, but I found (4) Cubes with FLAG GREEN in the Car in a ZIP LOCK that sat in the 100-120 DEGREE SUMMER HEAT this past summer. It too is lighter GREEN than the stuff in the house that is at 78 degrees or cooler all the time. Maye the older stuff just got lighter with age?
Click to expand...

Please let us know if there is a difference between the two performance-wise. Thanks...
 
I'll give my take on it because over the last 4 months or so I've sold about 12 grosses of Pre-Flag on this site. I will say that this is only my opinion and the reason I have sold it is because there is a demand for it. If I can locate more, I will bring it to market.
From what I see the pre flag and flagged chalk are definitely 2 different shades when comparing the same color. Could it be from age? Maybe, but it could be in formula. I have no idea. I can honestly say that every gross of Pre flag I have seen was the same color as the next, as was the flagged chalk compared to other flagged chalk.
Texture wise the flagged chalk feels different when I apply it. I never noticed it until one day I switched out the 2 cubes on my table downstairs and immediately knew something was different. I had put flagged chalk on the table and to me it feels softer and less gritty. I do like the way pre flag adheres to my tip better. I'm not saying its better, I'm saying in my opinion I like the way it applies better.
I've heard different takes on the lead in the chalk and so on, actually the lead in the dye is the best one I've heard yet. It makes the most sense. The owner of tweeten didn't change his recipe but that doesn't mean his dye supplier didn't change theirs years ago when lead in paint became an even larger issue than it already was.
There's a lot of different ways to look at it, but give this some thought. If the owner of tweeten knew that this pre flagged chalk was demanding the money it is. (which I'm sure he does) If it was as simple as aging the chalk don't you think he would research and find a way to speed the process up and bring it to market on a larger base? Especially to try to fill some competition voids between masters and Kamui. The only reason I can see that no effort would be made toward this, is if it were impossible......hence the lead based dye?
I honestly don't know. Maybe there's truly no difference but I see and feel a difference.....in my opinion. I will also add, that I do not feel its superior to flagged chalk performance wise, but it does feel better to me. If I can locate more pre-flag (it's not easy to find at all) I will offer it here as long as there is a demand for it. I've got enough pre flag to last me for a long time and when I run out......flagged it will be. I will not pay 25.00 for 1 cube of Kamui. EVER. Thats my take on the chalk. Take it for what it's worth........
 
lol... The chemical makeup of the ingredients IS the FORMULA. Get it?
................................................................................................

Obviously you don't 'get it'

Tweeten doesn't make the ingredients they purchase them. NOW do you get it?

Dale(who got "it" all along)
 
Breaking News---A consortium of liability attorneys are sponsoring a series of pool tournies. open to all pre-flag players. Just call 1-800- WeSue'm.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Breaking News---A consortium of liability attorneys are sponsoring a series of pool tournies. open to all pre-flag players. Just call 1-800- WeSue'm.
Click to expand...

I have pre-flag, an angle grinder and a fan. Make sure they sit downwind.
 
pdcue said:
Obviously you don't 'get it'

Tweeten doesn't make the ingredients they purchase them. NOW do you get it?

Dale(who got "it" all along)
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Spoken like a true chemist! So they purchase the ingredients, put them together and hope they're going to end up with billiard chalk! :slap:
 
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