Question about shooting fast and shooting slow......

[Protractor]

I had a pro level player tell me recently that I could play but I shot too fast. I've always played and shot fast. Any of you guys that use to play fast and changed to a slower more methodical approach improve a lot? Did slowing down enhance your game? I also can't get into a good rhythm when playing a slow player. I'm sure this subject has been broached but I'm new here.

When I first learned and got confident I played at a fast pace. I was 19 at the time and didn't plan patterns, I just shot and made the CB go where I wanted, mostly won and could run every 3rd or 4th rack (on a 9 ft table). Making those runs required getting good at making clutch shots (banks, kicks, etc.) because I was shooting zone shape instead of precision and didn't always stick the landing. I was very much a rhythm player and played by feel, just glancing around the table and quickly moving from shot to shot.

After quitting pool twice over the years I found that while I can still play fast I now win more games by playing slower and more deliberate, planning out the patterns (8 ball) and going for precision shape, which I am more or less forced to do now that I mainly play on bar boxes. I miss fewer shots and also play safeties now instead of full offense mode.

So yeah, I would say slowing down definitely enhanced my game. I mostly play slower than all but the best players in our leagues and am on par with them. I take extra time to make sure I know where the CB is going, avoid unintentionally bumping balls and carefully plotting safeties. All of that takes more time than playing quickly but I think it is time well spent. I watch a lot of pros playing on YouTube and while there are some that play very fast, they get a lot more table time than most of the rest of us. Many top pros have a very deliberate style.

I will also say that playing on a team changed my perspective on this as well. If I am playing sweep and we need points to win the round I shoot differently, making balls to get the needed points to cinch the round instead of focusing on winning the game or forcing a run out.

 

[JayRack]

Pace of play is completely different from playing so fast that one does not complete the pre shot routine to obtain the best results. I have a feeling that perhaps what the pro level player was trying to tell you is that he noticed you were not "sighting" the shots in the standing position to the degree needed to go down into the true line of the shot properly- thus , perhaps you showed some inconsistencies in making more difficult shots - sometimes looking great and other times missing an equally difficult shot.

i would suggest reviewing in your mind just how you decide on all the elements of a shot while standing- aim, speed, spin, stroke - and making sure that you are coming to complete decisions on all four elements prior to getting down to shoot- and doing so with conviction. if you find that one or more pieces are lacking a bit- work on it by taking a little more time prior to getting into the shooting position - over time, if you see results from some slight changes in your approach to each shot, and if you play enough- several times a week- your natural pace and rhythm should take over again- it may be fast again, but just more complete- Best of Luck!

The other area where too fast a pace can be harmful is in the stroke itself- that is a timing issue- when someone is too anxious at times and is letting the cue stick move into the cue ball without being "locked" on the OB aiming point to a sufficient degree. I would look at the pre shot routine first- make sure it is working right for you- conviction in the pre shot routine phase helps to overcome rushed stroke syndrome. if you still see some issues, strive for more consistency as well by slowing the stroke a bit as you remain locked on the OB contact point.

Got you. I do not have a pre shot routine. Maybe somebody can elaborate on that. I've heard the concept often but as a fast player never thought I had the patience to entertain that. I've been playing and gambling in 9 ball off and on since 1990. I played real fast when I was younger. Rarely took the chalk out of my hand. Only time I didn't shoot with the chalk in my hand was when I was on the rail. Maybe playing fast and keeping the chalk go hand in hand. I don't know.

 

[JayRack]

When I first learned and got confident I played at a fast pace. I was 19 at the time and didn't plan patterns, I just shot and made the CB go where I wanted, mostly won and could run every 3rd or 4th rack (on a 9 ft table). Making those runs required getting good at making clutch shots (banks, kicks, etc.) because I was shooting zone shape instead of precision and didn't always stick the landing. I was very much a rhythm player and played by feel, just glancing around the table and quickly moving from shot to shot.

After quitting pool twice over the years I found that while I can still play fast I now win more games by playing slower and more deliberate, planning out the patterns (8 ball) and going for precision shape, which I am more or less forced to do now that I mainly play on bar boxes. I miss fewer shots and also play safeties now instead of full offense mode.

So yeah, I would say slowing down definitely enhanced my game. I mostly play slower than all but the best players in our leagues and am on par with them. I take extra time to make sure I know where the CB is going, avoid unintentionally bumping balls and carefully plotting safeties. All of that takes more time than playing quickly but I think it is time well spent. I watch a lot of pros playing on YouTube and while there are some that play very fast, they get a lot more table time than most of the rest of us. Many top pros have a very deliberate style.

I will also say that playing on a team changed my perspective on this as well. If I am playing sweep and we need points to win the round I shoot differently, making balls to get the needed points to cinch the round instead of focusing on winning the game or forcing a run out.

I don't think there is any question that playing fast detracted from my Outlook on the whole table and patterns. In my mind I think that I always thought I had enough skill to get shape on anything therefore I didn't have to think two or three balls ahead which isn't good logic.

 

[ShootingArts]

I think this thread has brought out something. There are two reasons for playing fast, because you aren't planning the whole table and because you already have. Nobody mentions Willie Mosconi as a fast player but from what I have heard he ran over three balls a minute during his 526 run, including the time it took to rack! He probably shot over four balls a minute when allowing for racking time, and never appeared to hurry. I think that was because he had a plan as soon as he broke and for the most part stuck to the plan. Too he rarely shot hard and chased the cue ball all over the table. He ran balls very efficiently, as a result he cleared tables fast.

I don't believe in planning three balls ahead. The issue is having to add a ball after every shot. If you already have the whole run planned, why add a ball after every shot? This interrupts mental flow. I try to make an entire inning to sinking the money ball or playing a strong safety one continuous action. Impossible to do this if I stop and reconsider the plan after every shot. Of course if something happens to change the plan I have to regroup but I once again plan the whole table and then try to execute the plan again. I don't think between shots unless I have broken the pattern.

Hu

 

[mikemosconi]

JayRack- if you really want to figure out a good PSR then a few books that may help are: Championship Pool by David Macneill and Mark Wilson"s Play Great Pool- also look for Mark Wilson u tube videos, Basically you are deciding on aim, speed, stroke and spin WHILE you are standing- you should know where you want to contact the object ball and THEN get down into the shooting position with your cue in line to the cue ball and the object ball contact point- so that your stroke is straight through the cue ball.

Once your PSR is COMMITTED to in your mind- your brain should shift ENTIRELY to PART 2- Executing the shot- if you want a physical way to separate both modes then pick up the chalk AFTER each shot to shift back into PSR mode and then actually APPLY the chalk to your cue tip to switch back from PSR to shotmaking mode in your mind.

 

[JayRack]

JayRack- if you really want to figure out a good PSR then a few books that may help are: Championship Pool by David Macneill and Mark Wilson"s Play Great Pool- also look for Mark Wilson u tube videos, Basically you are deciding on aim, speed, stroke and spin WHILE you are standing- you should know where you want to contact the object ball and THEN get down into the shooting position with your cue in line to the cue ball and the object ball contact point- so that your stroke is straight through the cue ball.

Once your PSR is COMMITTED to in your mind- your brain should shift ENTIRELY to PART 2- Executing the shot- if you want a physical way to separate both modes then pick up the chalk AFTER each shot to shift back into PSR mode and then actually APPLY the chalk to your cue tip to switch back from PSR to shotmaking mode in your mind.

Thanks for the PSR advice. I will give this a try next time I do battle. Going to do some research on PSR.... At the end of the day I think slowing down will improve my game. We will see sooner rather than later.

 

[Protractor]

JayRack- if you really want to figure out a good PSR then a few books that may help are: Championship Pool by David Macneill and Mark Wilson"s Play Great Pool- also look for Mark Wilson u tube videos, Basically you are deciding on aim, speed, stroke and spin WHILE you are standing- you should know where you want to contact the object ball and THEN get down into the shooting position with your cue in line to the cue ball and the object ball contact point- so that your stroke is straight through the cue ball.

Once your PSR is COMMITTED to in your mind- your brain should shift ENTIRELY to PART 2- Executing the shot- if you want a physical way to separate both modes then pick up the chalk AFTER each shot to shift back into PSR mode and then actually APPLY the chalk to your cue tip to switch back from PSR to shotmaking mode in your mind.

I definitely recommend the "Championship Pool" book.

 

[yankee817299]

OP, watch this short vid.

 

[ddg45]

I make decisions quickly which is good, but my stroke also gets too quick, which is bad. I'm a little hyper and when I tell myself to slow down the back stroke and have a nice long follow-through I play better.

 

[alstl]

A video of you playing pool would be more helpful but if you are considering changing your game on the advice of someone else you must not be confident in your game.

I used to be a competitive distance runner. I was in a race once that was a 2k/10k. Both started at the same time. I was running next to a guy for the first mile who was critiquing my running and telling me what I was doing wrong. He was in the 2k. I was in the 10k. I was running as fast as he was with 8k more to go. I took second in the 10k. I would be have been an idiot to listen to his advice.

Some people are just control freaks who like to give advice. It's possible you play too fast but you are better off figuring that out on your own. My answer to your question with the limited information provided is you should not take advice from somebody else on whether to speed up your game. If he knows a good kicking system he can show you then I'd say listen to him.

 

[JayRack]

A video of you playing pool would be more helpful but if you are considering changing your game on the advice of someone else you must not be confident in your game.

I used to be a competitive distance runner. I was in a race once that was a 2k/10k. Both started at the same time. I was running next to a guy for the first mile who was critiquing my running and telling me what I was doing wrong. He was in the 2k. I was in the 10k. I was running as fast as he was with 8k more to go. I took second in the 10k. I would be have been an idiot to listen to his advice.

Some people are just control freaks who like to give advice. It's possible you play too fast but you are better off figuring that out on your own. My answer to your question with the limited information provided is you should not take advice from somebody else on whether to speed up your game. If he knows a good kicking system he can show you then I'd say listen to him.

Confidence has never been an issue with me or nerves. I'm a money player. I don't fold under pressure.... And I'm not so arrogant to not solicit advice... I value other players opinions.... At my local pool room there is only one guy that is my speed. He is a OG in the pool game. We have a mutual friend that watches us when we play/gamble and he is not a player. So about 3 months ago I lost to the OG and the mutual comes up to me and says man I think your better than him but your anger is an issue. Stop cussing yourself when you miss a ball you should have made. Stop letting your anger carry over and linger. I took that advice. Next time me and OG locked up I kept my emotions in check. He had me down 7-2 in a race to 10 and I won 10-8... If it was not for that advice I would have never won that race and the guy that gave me the advice couldn't play dead in a western.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I generally play fast. The issue I have found is when playing too fast I don't spend enough time with my eyes focused on the OB and miss. That's when I need to slow down.

It's very hard to find that perfect speed where my body and mind are in sync and I spend the right amount of time focusing on the OB.

 

[ShootingArts]

OP, watch this short vid.

Great video! About thirty minutes of pool goodness in part one and another thirty minutes more or less in part three. This is the shortest section at about eighteen minutes. I have watched the first two, working on the third part now. I don't think there is a better instructor in this old US of A and very very few his equal.

I am going to have to go through the accu-stat lists and throw a few dollars their way. I don't know what has been up how long but accu-stats has thrown a lot of pool goodness out on youtube for free during the time of covid. I am in the mood to give a little back.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...couldn't play dead in a western.

lol

Duly stolen.

pj
chgo

 

[Protractor]

Confidence has never been an issue with me or nerves. I'm a money player. I don't fold under pressure.... And I'm not so arrogant to not solicit advice... I value other players opinions.... At my local pool room there is only one guy that is my speed. He is a OG in the pool game. We have a mutual friend that watches us when we play/gamble and he is not a player. So about 3 months ago I lost to the OG and the mutual comes up to me and says man I think your better than him but your anger is an issue. Stop cussing yourself when you miss a ball you should have made. Stop letting your anger carry over and linger. I took that advice. Next time me and OG locked up I kept my emotions in check. He had me down 7-2 in a race to 10 and I won 10-8... If it was not for that advice I would have never won that race and the guy that gave me the advice couldn't play dead in a western.

If you are playing at that level I would take advice from real and potential competitors with a large grain of salt. They could be trying to shark you.

On the other hand, the 'mutual' gave you very good advice. Getting pissed at yourself only makes your game spiral down (don't ask me how I know!). Once the shot is missed it is out of your control and the key is maintaining a healthy amount of detachment so that you are ready for the next shot or game. Spend the time you would have been pissed replaying the shot to figure out what you did wrong.

There have been a few times that I got pissed and stayed that way until I got back to the table and run it out in like 30 seconds but that isn't something that I can or want to count on.

 

[RonnieRose]

I had a pro level player tell me recently that I could play but I shot too fast. I've always played and shot fast. Any of you guys that use to play fast and changed to a slower more methodical approach improve a lot? Did slowing down enhance your game? I also can't get into a good rhythm when playing a slow player. I'm sure this subject has been broached but I'm new

 

[ShootingArts]

Don't think about shooting fast or slow. Watch video of Mosconi or Filler high runs. Neither appears to shoot fast yet they are shooting three to four shots a minute including racking best I remember.

Shoot at the pace that accomplishes your goals. I am a strong advocate of planning your inning before your first shot. Then I want the entire inning to be one continuous motion until running out or a deliberate safety planned before my first shot. That doesn't mean I can't regroup and replan if something goes wrong but it does mean I am not thinking about adding a ball every shot with the think three balls ahead process.

Think standing before getting down on the first shot. Once down on the first shot, don't think! It takes practice. Start with two or three balls on the table and keep adding more. If there is any verbal thought stop and regroup. You will find yourself taking balls off the table at a pretty rapid rate, not because you are rushing but because you are working efficiently.

Next time you take a short drive, think about when you were first starting to drive. Think about exactly where your car is in the lane. Think about dodging every obstacle. Think about how hard to accelerate. Where and how hard to brake. Every little detail of driving. You can wear yourself out in a ten minute drive. Normally we just drive without a tremendous focus on tiny details. Pool should be the same way. Make sure we are doing things properly then let the conscious step out of the path between the unconscious and body movement.

I have talked to people who had to relearn how to walk as adults. All reports are that it is tremendously hard. Our arms and legs are in motion, our whole body to some extent. We never give a thought to it anymore.

Everything above can be boiled down to a couple things. Think standing. Don't think in words while addressing balls. Shoot at your pace, forget fast or slow. It doesn't matter.

Hu

 

[jason]

How fast or slow your play needs to be is determined by why you miss a ball. Did you miss the ball because of poor mechanics or was your pattern less than optimal? Usually when a good player misses after making a couple balls it is because he made a mistake earlier. The player saying you play to fast probably saw you making planning errors. Of course you have to consider the possibility he is wrong too, but a good chance he isn't. An observer often sees better than the person at the table.

When I was a teen I gambled with a man that was in his seventies, maybe eighties. Joe was very slow moving around the table, he shot so slow that the balls never lost contact with the bevel going in a pocket. Glaciers were speedburners compared to Joe. He could run out, and take fifteen minutes doing it without stalling. He was just that slow. The slower he seemed to play the faster I played. I sat on the edge of my chair or stool and jumped up as soon as he missed. In my rush I would miss a ball or blow shape then the torture began again. I wouldn't duck Joe but I gave him the money I had won from better players.

After several months of Joe beating me unmercifully I hit on a simple move. No more edge of the chair, I sat in the chair, leaned back, maybe propped a foot up. I watched Joe like a mildly interested observer. When he missed, I got up an ambled up to the table. Joe never beat me again. More importantly he taught me how to deal with slow players of all types. When people ask about mentors I always include Joe although he surely didn't mean to be one! It isn't exaggerating at all to say my dealings with Joe that cost me a few hundred and some pride made me thousands in the next seven or eight years. Any time somebody slow played me I would just sit deep in my chair, make a point of taking a swallow of beer when they missed, then get up slowly and go shoot.

Hu

Old Joe probably shot slow because...well, he was old. I have recently been playing a lot slower because of some health issues. Just because old Joe shot slow didn't mean he wasn't wise. It could very well have been a tactical maneuver on the young buck, too!

 

[Black-Balled]

Exactly. If the guys still around you might go back and ask him what he specifically meant by that. Where exactly is the "fast" occurring.

And ask him if he thinks you should lose some weight too.

 

[ShootingArts]

Old Joe probably shot slow because...well, he was old. I have recently been playing a lot slower because of some health issues. Just because old Joe shot slow didn't mean he wasn't wise. It could very well have been a tactical maneuver on the young buck, too!

Years later I wondered about "Joe". The only name I ever had for him but he shot well enough at that age to wonder if he had been a feared player in his day.

Joe always played the same no matter who he was playing so I don't think he did it on purpose to take me out of my game although I suspect he knew it did. He was one of the smarter people I ever played. Once I found the key to beating him he might play me one or two games or none. He had no ego keeping him in a bad match up.

Joe probably pulled five hundred dollars or more a month off of that table mostly three dollars at a time. No risk involved and a very nice supplement to social security.

That place only served beer, Joe had an endless supply of whiskey in the old sport coat he wore. At least one bottle was whiskey, the smell made that plain. Only years later did I wonder if most of those bottles contained tea.

Hu