Question for Freddy

[lfigueroa]

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

 

[BillPorter]

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

Since I'm not a bank pool player and not a strong player of any pool game, I feel perfectly qualified to comment on your questions. IMHO, full-rack banks favors the stronger player. I base this opinion on the widely accepted axiom that anything which makes a game more difficult favors the stronger player. And it seems to me that full-rack bank is more demanding that short-rack bank.

 

[muddawg]

I would think that with full rack banks, there would be fewer bank opportunities early on in the rack. So, this would lead to more safety play and moving earlier on as opposed to short rack banks.

I think full rack banks favors the stronger player because:

1. More moving early on
2. More obstacles to have to avoid for a clean bank
3. You have to make more balls

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Respectfully Lou....

This is way too many questions for Freddy to answer in a forum.. this just might be the basis for his NEW Book.. 'Banking match UPs .. Spots and how to use them to your advantage'

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks?

Why and when should one be favored over another;

why one is more popular in one part of the country than another;


and whether one game favors the stronger player,

or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

 

[houmatroy]

Full racks have alot more strategies & short racks is more about firepower...not the same but kinda like longrack is like 9ball in a sense & long racks is like one pocket

 

[Cornerman]

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

It's probably a decent analogy to use Rotation vs. 9-ball. Though you need great shooting and safety play in both, Rotation favors the strategist where as 9-ball favors the shotmaker. You see a lot of early tic-tac in full rack banks.

My guess as to why certain areas find one game more popular... possibly the soccer vs. NFL debate. Not enough hitting in soccer.

In either or any case, whatever the game is if it was the game of choice, Efren would end up being the best.

Fred

 

[dabarbr]

Full racks have alot more strategies & short racks is more about firepower...not the same but kinda like longrack is like 9ball in a sense & long racks is like one pocket

I like your description. In full rack banks there are more multiple rail banks because of the defense involved. In short rack it is more about firepower with one rail banks. Even the opening break is firepower in shot rack as oppose to safety break in full rack banks.

 

[The Schwartz]

... possibly the soccer vs. NFL debate. Not enough hitting in soccer.

Well, that and who wants to watch 90 minutes of people running in circles and faking injuries just to see the game end in a scoreless tie? :grin:

 

[Fatboy]

im only the messanger here Lou so dont shoot me, when broomback stayed at my house at my house for a week(he was i town on biz) we spent the nights talking and he said 9 ball banks or less is a bangers game, and full rack is a movers game much like 1P. He said "Only real bank players play anything less than 15 balls". I felt like a idiot,

I enjoy 9 ball banks alot more than full rack but i have only 6 months of experience. If I grew up in "bank's Country" thats all I would have ever played. in the first 23 years I played pool I played bank 2 times.

 

[freddy the beard]

"Besides six balls?"

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, eliminate the "besides" and you can answer your own question. Just imagine how the better teams in baseball would fare if they played 15 innings instead of 9.
However, 9 ball banks helps a guy with a strong 9 ball break. Full rack is usually played off of a safe break (thats how Bugs and Taylor broke full rack, so that should end that argument). The best banker should play full rack. A strong shot maker can do ok at short rack because of the plethora of nice angle "naturals." The balls dont clog up, most of the pockets remain open, and the balls are all over the table.
Full rack, the pockets are often closed, the balls clogged, and most of the balls clustered on the foot of the table. Multiple rail and off angle banks are often the only shot. They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack.

In Chicago the game of choice is full rack. In Kentucky, Tenn. short rack is played much more. They like to shoot more down there. Their hero is Truman Hogue, an offensive genius. In Chicago the squeeze is the thing. I'd like to think that I was one of the poster boys for that suffocating style. Bugs was famed for off-angle freak banks, was very aggressive, but could play strong safety too.

The best player plays full rack, no question about it. Anybody can shit out playing short rack.
My guy, Riley Jet Johnson, is having trouble getting anybody to play full rack, but there is probably a boat load of short rackers that would have a big chance with him. I wouldnt bet your money on him playing short rack.

Beard

 

[bud green]

Am I wrong in saying that there have been a couple of posts on AZ asking anyone in the world to play Tony Fargo full rack banks with no takers or were there stipulations to that bet that prevent the numerous bank masters like Brumback, Gregg, Daulton, Harriman, Miller,etc... from taking their chances?

Gregg, Daulton, and Miller have done fantastic at the DCC....Daulton made more banks than anyone in the ring games it seems before they did the time limit deal where a couple banks at the end are the difference, what prevents these guys from taking a shot?

Is he that good, or am I missing something?

Clearly, full rack banks has more "moves" to it than making a ball on a nine ball break with open lanes and firing away.

 

[cuesmith]

And anyone else who wants to chime in:

So, besides six balls, can you expound on the pros and cons of short rack vs full rack banks? Why and when should one be favored over another; why one is more popular in one part of the country than another; and whether one game favors the stronger player, or perhaps one particular style of player, vs another?

Lou Figueroa

Well obviously, and I think you know this Lou, the full rack bank game is much more of a moving game and favors the player who moves better, as in cue ball control and having a plan for either outcome of his making or not making the first bank. It's more like one-pocket but you have to protect 6 pockets instead of one.

In short rack banks, assuming you're required to smash the balls on the break and not break safe, the break is a huge factor. After the break, with only 8 or 9 balls on the table and the balls spread out, there will usually be a lot of shot possibilities but usually one correct shot. Short rack banks is much more offensive, but you still have to use good judgement and not shoot at flyers that if missed will leave your opponent opportunities. There are a lot of "2 way" shots" where you'll call a bank that's possible but you'll concentrate on sticking the rock, having another safety already in mind should you make the bank shot. Momentum is a very strong factor!

 

[lfigueroa]

Since I'm not a bank pool player and not a strong player of any pool game, I feel perfectly qualified to comment on your questions. IMHO, full-rack banks favors the stronger player. I base this opinion on the widely accepted axiom that anything which makes a game more difficult favors the stronger player. And it seems to me that full-rack bank is more demanding that short-rack bank.

I like your attitude, Bill. And I think I agree about full rack vs short.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I would think that with full rack banks, there would be fewer bank opportunities early on in the rack. So, this would lead to more safety play and moving earlier on as opposed to short rack banks.

I think full rack banks favors the stronger player because:

1. More moving early on
2. More obstacles to have to avoid for a clean bank
3. You have to make more balls

I think you're right, muddawg. But why do you think short rack is more popular, particularly in certain areas of the country?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Respectfully Lou....

This is way too many questions for Freddy to answer in a forum.. this just might be the basis for his NEW Book.. 'Banking match UPs .. Spots and how to use them to your advantage'

You may be right, Tom. But every once in a while, Freddy throws a few in the general direction of stie

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Full racks have alot more strategies & short racks is more about firepower...not the same but kinda like longrack is like 9ball in a sense & long racks is like one pocket

I think that part about short rack being more about firepower hits it on the head, houmatroy. But wouldn't the analogy be more like 9ball and rotation? Or do you still prefer 9ball and 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

It's probably a decent analogy to use Rotation vs. 9-ball. Though you need great shooting and safety play in both, Rotation favors the strategist where as 9-ball favors the shotmaker. You see a lot of early tic-tac in full rack banks.

My guess as to why certain areas find one game more popular... possibly the soccer vs. NFL debate. Not enough hitting in soccer.

In either or any case, whatever the game is if it was the game of choice, Efren would end up being the best.

Fred

oops, there it is: rotation and 9ball.

What about what equipment the two games are played on, Fred? As in maybe short rack is preferred where there are more bar boxes? Or is short rack more a 9' game?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I like your description. In full rack banks there are more multiple rail banks because of the defense involved. In short rack it is more about firepower with one rail banks. Even the opening break is firepower in shot rack as oppose to safety break in full rack banks.

Th e few "bumps" games I seen have been short rack and I've seen a lot of multiple rail shots, though I do agree that it's mostly about 1-railers. I would think that with more balls on the table, it would inhibit some of the multi-rail shots...

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

im only the messanger here Lou so dont shoot me, when broomback stayed at my house at my house for a week(he was i town on biz) we spent the nights talking and he said 9 ball banks or less is a bangers game, and full rack is a movers game much like 1P. He said "Only real bank players play anything less than 15 balls". I felt like a idiot,

I enjoy 9 ball banks alot more than full rack but i have only 6 months of experience. If I grew up in "bank's Country" thats all I would have ever played. in the first 23 years I played pool I played bank 2 times.

So, Eric: what did you learn while Brumback was at your place about the game? Did he show you anything you'd care to share?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, eliminate the "besides" and you can answer your own question. Just imagine how the better teams in baseball would fare if they played 15 innings instead of 9.
However, 9 ball banks helps a guy with a strong 9 ball break. Full rack is usually played off of a safe break (thats how Bugs and Taylor broke full rack, so that should end that argument). The best banker should play full rack. A strong shot maker can do ok at short rack because of the plethora of nice angle "naturals." The balls dont clog up, most of the pockets remain open, and the balls are all over the table.
Full rack, the pockets are often closed, the balls clogged, and most of the balls clustered on the foot of the table. Multiple rail and off angle banks are often the only shot. They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack.

In Chicago the game of choice is full rack. In Kentucky, Tenn. short rack is played much more. They like to shoot more down there. Their hero is Truman Hogue, an offensive genius. In Chicago the squeeze is the thing. I'd like to think that I was one of the poster boys for that suffocating style. Bugs was famed for off-angle freak banks, was very aggressive, but could play strong safety too.

The best player plays full rack, no question about it. Anybody can shit out playing short rack.
My guy, Riley Jet Johnson, is having trouble getting anybody to play full rack, but there is probably a boat load of short rackers that would have a big chance with him. I wouldnt bet your money on him playing short rack.

Beard

Freddy, thank you for your thoughtful answer.

I guess I hadn't thought about the break so much. I figured you'd high power the break at full rack too.

One specific question I have for you though: I know many of the reasons you hit banks at a higher speed, but would there be any advantage to hitting them at 1pocket speed, based on the theory that is you missed, you'd clog that pocket for your adversary's next turn at the table, at one game or the other?

Also, I am curious (and am not looking for an argument -- just clarification): somewhere in your books or tapes you talk about hitting everything without english. But in your answer up there you write "They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack." Could you clarify what you mean by the english part of that?

Lou Figueroa