Question for Freddy

[lfigueroa]

Am I wrong in saying that there have been a couple of posts on AZ asking anyone in the world to play Tony Fargo full rack banks with no takers or were there stipulations to that bet that prevent the numerous bank masters like Brumback, Gregg, Daulton, Harriman, Miller,etc... from taking their chances?

Gregg, Daulton, and Miller have done fantastic at the DCC....Daulton made more banks than anyone in the ring games it seems before they did the time limit deal where a couple banks at the end are the difference, what prevents these guys from taking a shot?

Is he that good, or am I missing something?

Clearly, full rack banks has more "moves" to it than making a ball on a nine ball break with open lanes and firing away.

Good question, Bud -- what about Fargo? Somehow he didn't make the great bankers lists in the other thread, but probably should have.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Well obviously, and I think you know this Lou, the full rack bank game is much more of a moving game and favors the player who moves better, as in cue ball control and having a plan for either outcome of his making or not making the first bank. It's more like one-pocket but you have to protect 6 pockets instead of one.

In short rack banks, assuming you're required to smash the balls on the break and not break safe, the break is a huge factor. After the break, with only 8 or 9 balls on the table and the balls spread out, there will usually be a lot of shot possibilities but usually one correct shot. Short rack banks is much more offensive, but you still have to use good judgement and not shoot at flyers that if missed will leave your opponent opportunities. There are a lot of "2 way" shots" where you'll call a bank that's possible but you'll concentrate on sticking the rock, having another safety already in mind should you make the bank shot. Momentum is a very strong factor!

Thanks, Sherm. Could you please talk a bit more about the two-way shots and how you balance safety play with playing position for the run? IOW, do you only play position when you've got a hanger, or what Diliberto calls an "electric chair" shot? Or are there other factors?

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

You guys pretty well covered it here. Short Rack is a wide open shooters game and Full Rack is a strategic mover's game. I don't mind playing either one, but full rack can take a long time and short rack is quick action. If I think I can beat a guy (or even play close to his speed) I will play either game, just because I enjoy the game and the challenge.

By the way, Bank Pool is the purest game there is on a pool table. You can't luck a ball in! You either win or lose based on your own ability and skill. And no one can sh-t out on you. They have to beat you fair and square. What's wrong with that?

 

[Cornerman]

oops, there it is: rotation and 9ball.

What about what equipment the two games are played on, Fred? As in maybe short rack is preferred where there are more bar boxes? Or is short rack more a 9' game?

Lou Figueroa

Honestly, other than goofing around, I've not seen a bar box short rack tournament or gambling set. I'm sure it happens in match ups in bar box country, but I've never seen it.


Fred

 

[jay helfert]

Honestly, other than goofing around, I've not seen a bar box short rack tournament or gambling set. I'm sure it happens in match ups in bar box country, but I've never seen it.


Fred

I've probably gambled at Banks a few hundred times in my life and NEVER played it on a bar table. Banks are a little too easy on bar tables imo.

 

[Black-Balled]

Well, that and who wants to watch 90 minutes of people running in circles and faking injuries just :grin:

Long rack banks isn't that bad, c'mon!

 

[Black-Balled]

Freddy, thank you for your thoughtful answer....Also, I am curious ...n your books or tapes you talk about hitting everything without english. But in your answer up there you write "They require much more banking knowledge ...

Lou Figueroa

I hear he planted a few bad 1p seeds in Efren too~!

 

[TheCueHunter]

I've probably gambled at Banks a few hundred times in my life and NEVER played it on a bar table. Banks are a little too easy on bar tables imo.

The last year they had the bar tables upstairs at the executive inn for the derby, Durbin played Tony Coleman getting 6-5 in short rack bank on a bar table. I believe Durbin won around 40,000. That was the year Durbin won all that money at the Derby.

But they for sure played on a bar table

 

[houmatroy]

I think that part about short rack being more about firepower hits it on the head, houmatroy. But wouldn't the analogy be more like 9ball and rotation? Or do you still prefer 9ball and 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa

I used short rack bank analogy comparing it to 9ball instead of rotation just because 9ball is mostly fast & loose where as 10ball is more mythological....Good bankers can put packages together as easy as good rotation players do in 9ball...it's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[freddy the beard]

It's all situational

Freddy, thank you for your thoughtful answer.

I guess I hadn't thought about the break so much. I figured you'd high power the break at full rack too.

One specific question I have for you though: I know many of the reasons you hit banks at a higher speed, but would there be any advantage to hitting them at 1pocket speed, based on the theory that is you missed, you'd clog that pocket for your adversary's next turn at the table, at one game or the other?

Also, I am curious (and am not looking for an argument -- just clarification): somewhere in your books or tapes you talk about hitting everything without english. But in your answer up there you write "They require much more banking knowledge (english, speed, strange angles) than natural 2 to 1 angle shots that dominate the 9 ball rack." Could you clarify what you mean by the english part of that?

Lou Figueroa

Item: When you have the lead you can lean towards hitting the banks pocket speed in order to clog pockets, discouraging your opponent from scoring and catching up easily. If you sweat my action you can always tell if I am ahead or behind in the score. If I'm behind the table is often open with balls scattered everywhere. When I'm ahead the pockets will be clogged and the balls clustered, on the rails and on one end of the table.

In full rack with pockets blocked and banking lanes closed, you must often manufacture shots and create angles. Oftentimes that involves changing natural angles with english. Natural angles: use natural hits and no english.

Beard

 

[lfigueroa]

You guys pretty well covered it here. Short Rack is a wide open shooters game and Full Rack is a strategic mover's game. I don't mind playing either one, but full rack can take a long time and short rack is quick action. If I think I can beat a guy (or even play close to his speed) I will play either game, just because I enjoy the game and the challenge.

By the way, Bank Pool is the purest game there is on a pool table. You can't luck a ball in! You either win or lose based on your own ability and skill. And no one can sh-t out on you. They have to beat you fair and square. What's wrong with that?

Jay, would you say banks is a "purer" game than 14.1?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Honestly, other than goofing around, I've not seen a bar box short rack tournament or gambling set. I'm sure it happens in match ups in bar box country, but I've never seen it.


Fred

I'm shocked. I mean, I believe you, Fred, but I would have thought that banks would be huge on bar boxes.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I hear he planted a few bad 1p seeds in Efren too~!

Let's not go there

Lou Figueroa
trying to be good

 

[lfigueroa]

The last year they had the bar tables upstairs at the executive inn for the derby, Durbin played Tony Coleman getting 6-5 in short rack bank on a bar table. I believe Durbin won around 40,000. That was the year Durbin won all that money at the Derby.

But they for sure played on a bar table

Well, that's what I would have thought. But now I'm not so sure -- about how common short rack banks is on bar boxes.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Item: When you have the lead you can lean towards hitting the banks pocket speed in order to clog pockets, discouraging your opponent from scoring and catching up easily. If you sweat my action you can always tell if I am ahead or behind in the score. If I'm behind the table is often open with balls scattered everywhere. When I'm ahead the pockets will be clogged and the balls clustered, on the rails and on one end of the table.

In full rack with pockets blocked and banking lanes closed, you must often manufacture shots and create angles. Oftentimes that involves changing natural angles with english. Natural angles: use natural hits and no english.

Beard

ahhh, very good. Thanks, Freddy -- some real good intel there. Thanks.

What do you think of the Tony Fargo question, in general?

In particular, do you like Jet in a match vs Tony?

Lou Figueroa
absolutely not trying to stir anything up
just a hypothetical question

 

[dabarbr]

Item: When you have the lead you can lean towards hitting the banks pocket speed in order to clog pockets, discouraging your opponent from scoring and catching up easily. If you sweat my action you can always tell if I am ahead or behind in the score. If I'm behind the table is often open with balls scattered everywhere. When I'm ahead the pockets will be clogged and the balls clustered, on the rails and on one end of the table.

In full rack with pockets blocked and banking lanes closed, you must often manufacture shots and create angles. Oftentimes that involves changing natural angles with english. Natural angles: use natural hits and no english.

Beard

In the situation you describe being ahead in the game and in order to control the white ball it's not unusual to see attempts at difficult one rail banks to the side pocket banking off the short rail. Something you will only see when it's critical to control the cue ball to a specific location. In other games this shot is a last resort.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, would you say banks is a "purer" game than 14.1?

Lou Figueroa

Here's your answer - in a Straight Pool match I've seen a player shoot at the corner pocket and miss, the object ball then goes four rails and falls into the same corner pocket. Count one for the shooter. You can't do that in Bank Pool!

 

[lfigueroa]

Here's your answer - in a Straight Pool match I've seen a player shoot at the corner pocket and miss, the object ball then goes four rails and falls into the same corner pocket. Count one for the shooter. You can't do that in Bank Pool!

OK, sure. I've also had balls bobble out of one pocket, go cross table, and back into the called pocket. Or how about calling a ball out of the stack, having it hang up, and another comes along and knocks it in?

But I'm not so sure the luck, no luck element, is the best way to decide on what the purest form pool is. I kind of like the Joe Balsis quote that was in the instructional section of BD, I think last month, and goes something like: Every pool game is a derivative of 14.1.

Lou Figueroa

 

[freddy the beard]

Tony Fargo Ferguson

ahhh, very good. Thanks, Freddy -- some real good intel there. Thanks.

What do you think of the Tony Fargo question, in general?

In particular, do you like Jet in a match vs Tony?

Lou Figueroa
absolutely not trying to stir anything up
just a hypothetical question

I think Tony Fargo is the most dangerous, big money, full-rack bank pool player in the country. (Provided he is still playing the same speed of a few years ago, and has not fallen back on the bottle) He is who I would least like to play today if I was playing my top speed of 25 years ago.

Jet is playing great, and with a lot of confidence, but I would make Fargo a 9 to 8 favorite.

Beard