Question for Jay on Don Willis

Terry Ardeno

Terry Ardeno

I still love my wife
Silver Member
Jay,

When you lived in Ohio, did you ever have any first hand knowledge of Don Willis? I've read everything I could find on him, and one of his grandsons (huckster) was kind enough to fill in some info. What's your accessment of him? Where would he rank on the "all time" list....top what?
And thanks for answering the PM :)

I put this out here rather than in a PM in hopes that others may add some input as well.
 
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I am no authority on Don, but I think he was better than anyone in his time. In R.A. Dyers book, he talks about him busting Wimpy when Wimpy was in his prime. He also supposedly beat Mosconi and many others for the cash, never tournements. I am kinda biased torwards him though. He always had the nuts, no matter what the spot.
 
I did see him play in his prime. I will respond a little later in more depth. I'm tired now. Spent the day with my sister at the Phil Spector trial. She and the Judge (Larry Fidler) are good friends. It was a very interesting day to say the least.
 
Terry...When Johnston City was going strong, and reporters started showing up to write about it, one of them (not sure if it was Wertheim or not) went around asking all of the tournament players who was the best among them.
To a man they all pointed to Don Willis (who came to gamble, not play in the tournament each year). After he had asked every player, he finally went over to Willis to ask: "All of these champion players say you're the best, but you're not even playing in the tournament. Why do they say that?" His answer was, "Who said that?" The reporter said, "Everyone I asked." Willis then said, "Let me see your list." After appraising the list of names, he began pointing at each one, saying, "I beat him, I beat him, I beat him"...and so on and so on, until he had gone down the entire list. He also had a standing offer to play anyone for $25K, if they came to him in OH. For more than 20+ years nobody took him up on that offer! :eek: That, in itself, says something about him!

As huckster probably told you, Don Willis was a gambling man unto himself...a champion poolplayer of any game, including snooker and 3-C, a champion gin rummy player, a champion ping pong player (he was known to play people while sitting in a chair), a champion horseshoe pitcher, a backwards running champion, an excellent poker player, dice roller. and on and on. In short, Willis could and did gamble at EVERYTHING. Jack White traveled on the road with him and Wimpy at the same time, going from one coast to the other. Fats went along on one trip too. Can you imagine those four coming into your town? They would most certainly be leaving "with the cash"! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
You're "not sure" if it was Wertheim or not? Scott, I'd take short odds Wertheim was not yet born when Johnston City was in its heyday. As for Willis, a lot of it came from the gushing of Luther Lassiter, but he was regarded as very good on home turf. His table-tennis claims were said to be farcial, by some very authoritative people from that sport, and I've also been reliably told that he cheated at cards. But as for pool, he was indeed thought to be damn near unbeatable on home turf; only Harold Worst was ever known to have beaten him there. GF
 
jay helfert said:
I did see him play in his prime. I will respond a little later in more depth. I'm tired now. Spent the day with my sister at the Phil Spector trial. She and the Judge (Larry Fidler) are good friends. It was a very interesting day to say the least.
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You GOTTA write a book,and not just on pool.
 
Okay, Scott covered a lot of territory, most of it the truth. Don was quite the hustler at more games than pool. But pool was his main gig for a long time.

The last of his playing days were in my youth during the 60's. I grew up in Ohio so the Willis stories reverberated in all the pool rooms. He was much like the "Jack Cooney" of the next generation, in that most pool players did not know what he looked like. Don avoided the tournament scene back then and prefered to sneak into town and hustle the unwary.

I would not have known him, except I went to Johnston City in the early 60's and he was there. So when he showed up in a Dayton area poolroom a few months later I spotted him. I was working at a motorcycle dealership selling bikes, when I got word of a big 9-Ball Ring game at a nearby poolroom. It seems this big game had been going on, off and on for days now. Something like $20 a man, big money back then.

My source at the poolroom told me that some old guy had gotten into the game that very day and was getting real "lucky". When I got off work, i headed over there and sure enough I spotted the short pudgy man with hawk like features. He was in a game with three or four of the best players in Dayton, and no one knew him! Except me, a young kid. Go figure.

What Willis was doing was playing combos and billiards on the 9 when it was his turn, and he kept getting "lucky", or so it seemed. He did have to shoot in some long shots and banks, and he was rifling those in to. But it seemed like he was winning most games on luck. He rarely ran out more than four or five balls. But Don and one other player (Dino I think) were beating the game. Finally it ended up with the two of them left. In short order Don dismantled our local hero. When he was done, he put his house cue back in the rack and hit the door without much fanfare.

It was almost a scene out of the Lone Ranger, "Who was that masked man"? Someone else piped up, "I think that was Don Willis", and I just sat there transfixed. At age 18, I already knew to keep my mouth shut in the poolroom and just pay attention. Others in there shook their heads in unison, like "Oh Okay, now I understand". Everyone knew his name, but few actually knew what he looked like. They were guessing based on his age and appearance.

To be continued.
 
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Part two. Fast forward a few years and I'm on the road to California. I stop in Vegas for the '67 Stardust tournament to see what's going on and who's there. It is basically the same crowd that I had seen in Johnston City with a few new faces. And Don Willis is sitting on the sidelines in the "practice room" studying a racing form. A few players acknowledge him, but most walk right on by.

Later in the evening, a couple of players are betting on shooting "Spot Shots", and the bet starts to get higher and higher. I notice Willis is scoping out this game. The two players are matching turns with each other, each one getting ten tries. The winner of each bet is making the shot like 7 or 8 out of 10. When its all over, Willis says to the winner, "That ain't so hard, why I could make it 9 out of 10 easy". The winner looks at this old guy and says something to the effect of why don't you get up here and try.

So the "old guy" puts his paper down and they make a bet, something like $100. The "old guy" borrows his cue and with no warm up, makes the shot 9 out of the first 10 tries. They bet once more for $200 I think and he does it again. Now the player is done, and Willis is fooling around with "wing shots" on the same table. He rolls the object ball down the table and while it's rolling, shoots it into the corner pocket. He's making some and missing some. Someone else in the crowd says "You want to bet on that shot?" Sure says Willis, and they soon agree that Willis has to make 4 out of 5 tries.

Bam, ding, KA CHING! Another $100 bites the dust and goes into the "old guys" pocket. That bet is over. Now Willis proceeds to put two balls on the far end of the table. He rolls the wing shot down the table and tries to make it between the two balls. He misses naturally. He misses again. Pretty soon he has someone in the crowd betting him even money on making this shot, where he must shoot the wing ball between two balls no more than 6" to 8" apart. BAM, ka ching. BAM ka ching. Two or three in a row and this bet is done too.

Maybe a half hour has lapsed and Willis has made something like $500. It's all over and he sits back down and takes out his form and returns to work. How could you not like this guy? I saw Don off and on at major West Coast events after that. His hustling days were about over, and he must have been pushing 70 or so. Don was friends with Fred Whalen who put on the big tourneys in L.A. in the early 70s, and Don would always be there, with his ever present newspaper sticking out of his back pocket. All the top hustlers would always give Don a big hello when they saw him. He was the uncrowned King of the hustlers.

I got an opportunity to talk to him a couple of times in Los Angeles. We talked about handicapping mostly. He told me that he could always beat Baseball and College Basketball. So he spent most of his time in Vegas, beating the books over there. I don't think I saw him again after that. I don't know exactly when he died.

Most of the top old time players ranked Willis right at the top with Lassiter and George Rood as 9-Ball players (they were all buddies by the way). But Willis was definitely the best hustler of the bunch, and a feared money player. I saw him play only a few times, but he had a powerful stroke, and was stock solid at the table. Don may have been only 5'7" or 5'8". He always wore a sport jacket and dress slacks. He looked like your local banker, until he got down on the table and started rattling the pockets.

Well, that's about it.
 
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I appreciate everybody's input into this thread. Pretty interesting comparing all the recollections.
 
Thanks Jay ...

I also grew up in the 60's, and had heard of Don Willis, but did not know any history of his playing. That was a good read. Thanks again.
 
Willis and Eddie Robin

(This is a previous post. I keep a file, fellas.)

Don Willis. He was called the Cinncinnati Kid, but he was really from Canton, Ohio. I met him a few times. Super nice guy. I would have given anything to have hung out with him when he was on the road hustling. He amazingly once lost about 100$ playing even Nineball with Eddie Robin at The Golden Eight Ball in Chicago. (Yes, the 1 pkt book writer!) He was playing on the old Harold Worst brand, 4x8 tables. They were like toys, they didnt even have real slate. They were made out of some kind of compressed fiber. Super freak equipment, and Robin could run hundreds on them. Willis started out stalling, and Robin being from New York, once he got winner would not raise the bet. I talked to Willis about it when he stopped in Bensingers later that day. He said he was well aware of the "7/11, Ames, McGirrs, New York Gamble," and he knew he could never get even, plus he would have to show too much speed to even come close, so he quit and took the small loss. Robin lives in Vegas today and is now helpless playing pool. Eddie has to treat me very well because I am one of the few humans who can verify that he actually did beat Don Willis. Robin plays so poorly now, nobody believes he could have ever beaten any good players. However, a few years ago he made me send him a signed testimonial that he really did beat Bugs, Mexican Johnny and Don Willis at the Golden Eight Ball.

the Beard

I now have my own internet Blog. It can be accessed from my website. I just started working on it, so bear with me.
 
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Some odds and ends

Don was all of the things the knowledgeable posters have said. As to George Fels' comment about cheating at cards, EVERYBODY did, including me. I knew Don pretty well but he was at least a full generation older than I so I didn't get to see that much of his playing, certainly not when he was in his prime. George, let's see if we can get Freddy to tell the story about when he wanted to take lessons on cheating at cards from a man who was considered to be technically the best cheater in the world and who happened to live in Chicago.
I know how hard it is to be a family man and a pool hustler. That's one of the reasons I liked and respected Don so much. He was a good family provider.I also liked him because he hung around and hustled with Jimmy Moore, a man who I really was close with.
 
Ok, you got me!

Grady said:
Don was all of the things the knowledgeable posters have said. As to George Fels' comment about cheating at cards, EVERYBODY did, including me. I knew Don pretty well but he was at least a full generation older than I so I didn't get to see that much of his playing, certainly not when he was in his prime. George, let's see if we can get Freddy to tell the story about when he wanted to take lessons on cheating at cards from a man who was considered to be technically the best cheater in the world and who happened to live in Chicago.
I know how hard it is to be a family man and a pool hustler. That's one of the reasons I liked and respected Don so much. He was a good family provider.I also liked him because he hung around and hustled with Jimmy Moore, a man who I really was close with.
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Grady, you got me squirming a little. It's usually me pointing out the little peccadillos of the old guard. I had forgotten what a long memory you also have. When you mentioned the guy (Ed Marlo was his stage name), I panicked, and ran into my book room to make sure I still had all his card manipulation instruction books. Thank the Lord, I still do! They are priceless, as Marlo is long dead and he would only sell the books to his few worthy students. I used to buy dinner once a week for Ed Marlo and the fellow who introduced me to him, Hall of Fame Card Magician Eddie Fields. It was a hangout for magicians and we would work out right in the joint. While we are on the snitch, I believe you also took lessons from Eddie Fields. I know Mike Massey did. Fields was a pool bug who would exchange cheat info for pool lessons. He couldn't play a lick. I thought he was the greatest card manipulator in the world until I met Marlo. Compared to Marlo, unbelievably, Eddie Fields card speed was on a par with his helpless pool speed! Marlo was the world's greatest bottom, second, and middle dealer. Yes middles! Marlo was one of the few humans who could deal from the middle of the deck. Now here's the rub, Marlo never gambled, but loved real card mechanics. Gambling just wasn't his thing. His favorite was Italian Vinny from Detroit. Now here is rub #2, I never made a cracker off my new found skills. After I had become reasonably proficient, it was about that same time that I discovered freebase, and young girls who were seeking freebase. Gambling and hustling took a 10 year hiatus.

the Beard

I now have my own Blog on the internet.
 
hey freddie i loved your new book, in the next one throw in some stories of young girls seeking freebase, that sounds good lol
 
George Fels said:
You're "not sure" if it was Wertheim or not? Scott, I'd take short odds Wertheim was not yet born when Johnston City was in its heyday. As for Willis, a lot of it came from the gushing of Luther Lassiter, but he was regarded as very good on home turf. His table-tennis claims were said to be farcial, by some very authoritative people from that sport, and I've also been reliably told that he cheated at cards. But as for pool, he was indeed thought to be damn near unbeatable on home turf; only Harold Worst was ever known to have beaten him there. GF
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Excuse me George! :eek: I keep track of POOLPLAYER'S names, not writers! :rolleyes: I thought Wertheim was the guy who wrote the original piece in SI on Johnston City, that screwed the tournament and put the IRS on to it...and that it might have been the same guy with Willis. As far as ping pong, Willis could beat anyone who was not a true champion of the game, and he won a LOT of $$$ getting huge spots from real players by betting he could win sitting in a chair. That part is undeniable. As far as being a "cheat"...well, like Freddy and Grady said, most all the players had 'questionable' techniques at many things they did to make a living. Don Willis was likely one of the great con men of that era. Everybody knows the story of Don betting someone (likely dozens of times) that he could tell them the color of the next five cars to come around the corner. Of course he would have paid someone to have set this up, and was waiting for a signal from Don. Here's another story...

Don and a couple of "friends" were driving around rural OH. This was 'back in the day' before freeways, and before many paved roads. They came upon a farmer standing over a dead cow, on the side of the road. Passing by nobody made any comment at the time. After traveling a few more miles, Willis says to the other two, "So, what'd ya think about that dead HORSE back there?" Naturally the other two guys rebuffed him, telling him he was blind, etc. Now the bet goes down (and you KNOW it had to be signficant). Don turns the car around and drives back to where the farmer was. He, of course, was still there, and lo and behold, he is standing over a dead horse!
Now the farmer had to kill two animals, and drag one off with a tractor to replace it with the other, so he was no doubt compensated well for his efforts. The look on the faces of the two 'marks'...priceless! :D So, Don Willis was highly skilled at everything he did, whether it was 'on the square' or not! LOL Jack White learned some gambling moves from Willis, and told me he NEVER ever bet against anything Don was involved with, for good reason. If Don bet that a particular light bulb was gonna burn out in 5 minutes, you bet with him...because he had probably paid somebody to cut a wire or something! He was the consumate hustler.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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Scott Lee said:
a champion horseshoe pitcher, a backwards running champion, an excellent poker player, dice roller. and on and on. In short, Willis could and did gamble at EVERYTHING.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Has anyone ever seen a backwards running race for the cash? I'm curious...is it a sprint, middle distance? I recall another big-time gambler from R.A. Dyer's book was a backwards running champion, can't remember who though. Might have been Hubert Cokes :confused:
 
It's cocaine with ether added to it, making it smokable. There's nothing more addictive on the face of the earth - and Freddy is about the only ex-practicioner you're going to find who ever quit it cold. GF
 
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