Question for the Tin Man

[BasementDweller]

Man I really don't have the time to give this initial post the attention it deserves but here recently -- I have to grab a spare minute whenever I can find it.

Anyway, I've sort of had your boot camp in the back of my mind and I've mentioned your name to several of my pool playing buddies.

BUT I'm now a bit more cautious as I read your messages about the goal/scope of your boot camps. Keep in mind that I have a great deal of respect for how you handle yourself on not only this board, but also how you carry yourself around the pool table (as I've watched a few of your matches). So anyways, here's my deal: For a guy like me, who has spent A LOT of time studying this game -- I'm quite confident that my game wouldn't be measurably improved by a greater tactical awareness. Saying this, I do find that even lessor players occasionally point out tactical things that I overlook for one reason or another. So I'm not saying I'm infallible in this department. I just have a really hard time believing that say -- someone in the 650-700 Fargo Rating ballpark is really stuck there because of tactical matters , more so than because they are simply missing makeable balls. In 9 ball for instance, rarely do I see players in this range, play shots that are completely out of the ordinary. What I see much more often is they just miss the ball, or come up short while PLAYING the proper positional route. Anyway, I have seen where you have recommended other instructors for fundamental issues but I can't help but wonder why a rigid improvement in one's shot making wasn't a goal of your boat camp. This was the initial picture I had in my head when I first heard about your camp.

I know for me I've been climbing the fundamentals/technique mountain for a long time and I'll probably die up here. But even on this mountain -- pride probably got the best of me as I recently made a major change to my technique that had I gone to a knowledgable instructor years ago -- they probably would have corrected. Oh well -- live and learn.

Last thing, I do know one thing -- I would be in pool heaven for a weekend if I ever got the chance to check out your camp.

All the best.

 

[Tin Man]

Hey Basement Dweller! Thanks for thinking of me and for bringing this up directly.

First off I will agree that there are a number of skills important in pool. Fundamentals and execution are absolutely required. Knowledge and strategy are needed. And much more. It isn't one or the other, it's all of the above.

When I say that I'm not a fundamentals guy it is because I lack the expertise in that area of being able to confidently troubleshoot people's issue with sighting, alignment, clearance, and many other things that might be off kilter. There are instructors that have seen thousands of students and know exactly the causes and solutions of many of these physical problems. These are great resources both for beginning players starting out and serious players looking to fine tune.

As for me, tactics, cue ball, and patterns are a big part of what I focus on, but not the whole picture. The whole picture is the whole picture. Whatever level player I work with I look at their overall production and identify their relative strengths and weaknesses. After a good diagnosis I really zero in on the links in the chain that are underdeveloped. Sometimes it is knowledge, sometimes it is technique, sometimes it is mental game, sometimes it is career management, and without fail everyone needs to get much better at cue ball and patterns. Often just the right vision of pool and the right clarity on the right areas are worth the trip, because many people spend years beating their head against the wall in the wrong direction. But of course that's just the beginning.

And yes, I do work on some shot making at times. It just depends on the player. I am very picky with drills and practice. Some look flashy but don't do much, others seem to give a lot of bang for the buck. I have found some exercises and drills that really help develop different skills in different areas of stroke and pocketing. But I only pick the ones that will help my student strengthen a link that isn't fully developed.

As for patterns, 700s are no exception to my 'everyone plays bad patterns' rule. I have seen many players over 700 that are regional tournament winners that make me shake my head when I see them play. Many can give me all I can handle on a bar table in short sets, yet when we play extended races on a 9' table they are drawing very thin. The problem is that they are taking more chances and making each rack more work than it should be, and those percentages cannot be outrun in the long run. 9' tables, tight pockets and pressure will expose these flaws.

You've been very respectful to me and I hope you know I reciprocate that respect. What I will say is if you can't imagine that 700 players shoot bad patterns because they all look like normal shots, then you have the same issues they do. Could a 400 Fargo rate diagnose pattern errors of a 600? Maybe, maybe not. Well, my patterns are elite, and having taught patterns I am very clear at the reasoning behind the various approaches. Mistakes stand out to me very clearly.

Now I have to fight my urge to prove it, because I can't. Oh, I could have you talk to some 700 Fargo's that have thanked me for showing them what professional pool really was and saying that I changed their pool life. I could email you a video review I did of a player beating the 10 ball ghost 5-0, yet it was obvious that he cherry picked his best set out of many attempts because I saw the errors he was making in patterns and correctly predicted problems he narrowly escaped (and could never escape consistently). I could try to explain that my Fargo has fluctuated between 730-745 for the last few years and I don't shoot any straighter than many of the 700s in my area or even some of my students, so obviously I must be really, really, really, really good at the areas I'm strong at. And is it so hard to believe that someone who has built their pool career on carving out every percentage on every shot for 25 years and plays strong pool might have some ideas and approaches to the game beyond "Get on the right side of the ball" or "Play with the shot line"? I could say that maybe a 700 won't learn as much new, but the things they learn will be much more critical as every 10 points means so much at that level. I could say that but honestly I think the 700s DO have as much to learn, I wish I could show you through my eyes.

So I will say that, then I will let it all go. Some people are a good fit for me, some aren't. It's like talking about mental game. I've said the right words to some people at the right time to change their lives. I also realize that those same words can sound like gobbledygook to the wrong person or at the wrong time. So too with pool. If someone comes here with an "I doubt you can show me anything, but go ahead and show me what you've got" attitude, I can already tell you it's not going to be beneficial. In the end we have to walk our own roads and do what we think is right for us. That is why I compete. I am a player first, and if someone wants my help I'll help. I do my share of marketing, but I don't solicit. And if I ever get fired up about this stuff because I feel so confident, I turn back to pool and put my energy into my own game. I've got my own challenges I need to work on. Why loose head space worrying about what other people think, let's work on my elevated game. Why am I not able to compete at a higher level myself? Go to work.

Now, we all have to run our own ships. There are a lot of ways to get to the top. Frankly I thought Jayson Shaw was playing terrible patterns when he first came on the scene and was winning majors. He could obviously beat me and it didn't bother him. He had enough knowledge to keep giving himself shots and enough heart and stroke to keep putting them in the holes. Can't argue with that. So if you want to develop yourself into a monster player that can juggernaut through layout after layout, that can work. It's for you to decide. Are you confident that you have a good diagnosis of your game and a winning plan to hit your goals? If yes, game on, make it happen. If not, or if you're not making the progress you want, there are alternatives. We're all good Basement Dweller, and I will be rooting for you all the way!

 

[Tin Man]

One last thought-

Pool is like cooking. With intermediate players they are missing entire ingredients. Like "Hey bro, you need eggs for a good cake!" With advanced players they have the ingredients, but maybe the wrong amounts, put together the wrong way.

Pool is a subtle game. I was just working with Tyler Styer last week (he was teaching me some things). One thing that was really interesting came up on elevated shots. I really felt I was struggling with sighting. I have tried and tried for DECADES but have struggled with elevated shots. After working with him he showed me the issue was tip accuracy. Slight mishits on these types of shots cause big errors. I thought my tip accuracy was good, but by focusing on it with him by my side we figured out some things I could do to get closer to center more consistently. My make percentage improved.

Now if someone had told me "Tip accuracy is important" the week before I would've said "I know!" Because I know that concept and in general that is a strength. But I didn't know it was the correct focus for that situation.

Sometimes knowing the right focus at the right time is transformative. It's the difference between knowing what ingredients are needed and how to actually bake a good cake.

 

[sjm]

The original post is among the more shocking posts I've ever read on this forum.

I will not name names, but I can think of a few 800+ players that are not elite tacticians, and also a few 800+ players that don't play the patterns nearly as well as they might. Finally, several 800+ players are pretty weak at defense conceptualization.

Great pool is about great conceptualization (shot planning and judgement) as much as great execution. I have always felt that at top pro level, there are as many errors made in conceptualization as in execution. I don't think the supposition that top amateurs make all the right choices but don't execute as well as they might could be further from the truth. It's certainly not true for most of the top pros.

All that said, it is possible that the original poster is a superior pattern player, tactician, and defensive player whose execution skills are the biggest problem. My only problem is with the attempt to generalize that this is typical of players in the Fargo range noted. It most definitely is not!

 

[alphadog]

All I know is when you leave yourself easy shots , it is easy to pocketballs. They are called easy for a reason Improving pattern play means more easy shots.
P.S. easy shots arent just 4" from a wide open pocket with the cueball 6" from them , they are also shots that can be made and offer a simple way to play position so the following shots can also be easy.

 

[terpdad]

I'd like to commend OP & Tin Man on their civility. Not enough of that these days.

 

[BasementDweller]

The original post is among the more shocking posts I've ever read on this forum.

I will not name names, but I can think of a few 800+ players that are not elite tacticians, and also a few 800+ players that don't play the patterns nearly as well as they might. Finally, several 800+ players are pretty weak at defense conceptualization.

Great pool is about great conceptualization (shot planning and judgement) as much as great execution. I have always felt that at top pro level, there are as many errors made in conceptualization as in execution. I don't think the supposition that top amateurs make all the right choices but don't execute as well as they might could be further from the truth. It's certainly not true for most of the top pros.

All that said, it is possible that the original poster is a superior pattern player, tactician, and defensive player whose execution skills are the biggest problem. My only problem is with the attempt to generalize that this is typical of players in the Fargo range noted. It most definitely is not!

Wow -- I guess I'm in select company with my most shocking post.

I sort of figured you would chime in on this one as I've always had a different view of the game than you. For example, for years you've intimated that the U.S. team's annual losses were largely due to these "errors in conceptualization", while I took a much simpler view -- they had poor fundamentals which caused them to miss shots and miss positional zones that their European counterparts did not.

I do think you hit on something in your final paragraph, about my game, that is accurate. I probably am a better technician than most players in my range. This is due in no small part to the fact that I've spent countless hours watching and analyzing the game, while others in my range were actually playing it. I've personally found working rigidly on my technique in the comparably small amount of time I have to spend on the table -- has allowed me to compete with players that almost completely dedicate their lives to the game.

Anyway, this topic has come up before and I've always looked at it as a ratio. So each player has a cue ball control (positional play) to shot making ratio that they must understand. I think I understand mine pretty well and I guess I'm questioning if I understand others as well as I think I do.

 

[BasementDweller]

Thanks for the reply Tin Man. Lots of good stuff in it, albeit a bit defensive - but I'll give you a pass as your passion is so palpable.

I think you said what I wanted to hear about shot making in a couple paragraphs there, especially when you mentioned viewing the whole picture.

The issue is there's always 2 sides to the coin. So in this paragraph you state:
"As for patterns, 700s are no exception to my 'everyone plays bad patterns' rule. I have seen many players over 700 that are regional tournament winners that make me shake my head when I see them play. Many can give me all I can handle on a bar table in short sets, yet when we play extended races on a 9' table they are drawing very thin. The problem is that they are taking more chances and making each rack more work than it should be, and those percentages cannot be outrun in the long run. 9' tables, tight pockets and pressure will expose these flaws."

Okay maybe you're right about their positional short comings, but guess what I see when I watch a bar table player move up to a 9 footer? I see them miss a lot of freaking balls. Sloppy, loosey-goosey bar table fundamentals just don't cut it on the big track.

I do find it interesting that the single example you cite about your own game improving after spending time with Tyler -- was a specific shot making example.

Anyway, I'm really not looking to argue as I don't have skin in the game here and your results speak for themselves as customer after customer comes away satisfied. I guess this thread should have just been about MY game and not about others but man alive -- I just think 9 and 10 ball are such simple games. I do see the mistakes from time to time though but it all goes back to that ratio. The further someone climbs up the ladder the more introspective they must become about it and know what they need to work on.

Anyway -- I have to run. I'll think about this a bit more today and maybe respond more clearly later.

 

[BasementDweller]

Stealing one more second...

It just dawned on me that it's possible we see things very similarly with our own games. Of course my game being at a lessor level. Maybe it is my positional routes that get me over the finish line against my more "qualified" opponents and this gives me a bit of a blind spot. My cue ball has always been better than pocketing from my view behind the cue.

I know that's talking out of both sides of my mouth but I'm guilty of that from time to time.

 

[Tin Man]

Thanks for the reply Tin Man. Lots of good stuff in it, albeit a bit defensive - but I'll give you a pass as your passion is so palpable.

I think you said what I wanted to hear about shot making in a couple paragraphs there, especially when you mentioned viewing the whole picture.

The issue is there's always 2 sides to the coin. So in this paragraph you state:
"As for patterns, 700s are no exception to my 'everyone plays bad patterns' rule. I have seen many players over 700 that are regional tournament winners that make me shake my head when I see them play. Many can give me all I can handle on a bar table in short sets, yet when we play extended races on a 9' table they are drawing very thin. The problem is that they are taking more chances and making each rack more work than it should be, and those percentages cannot be outrun in the long run. 9' tables, tight pockets and pressure will expose these flaws."

Okay maybe you're right about their positional short comings, but guess what I see when I watch a bar table player move up to a 9 footer? I see them miss a lot of freaking balls. Sloppy, loosey-goosey bar table fundamentals just don't cut it on the big track.

I do find it interesting that the single example you cite about your own game improving after spending time with Tyler -- was a specific shot making example.

Anyway, I'm really not looking to argue as I don't have skin in the game here and your results speak for themselves as customer after customer comes away satisfied. I guess this thread should have just been about MY game and not about others but man alive -- I just think 9 and 10 ball are such simple games. I do see the mistakes from time to time though but it all goes back to that ratio. The further someone climbs up the ladder the more introspective they must become about it and know what they need to work on.

Anyway -- I have to run. I'll think about this a bit more today and maybe respond more clearly later.

Thanks BD. Yes, I'll mellow a bit more each time I have this conversation in the future. I went through the same thing when I started working when I was young. At some point I'd bring up pool and without fail someone would have an uncle or a cousin or a friend that was 'really good'. I'd futilely explain the difference but they'd just draw a line and be all "But they play tournaments in Las Vegas!" There's just not much you're gonna say about that. People are gonna believe what they want. I'll hit you back on your responses but I'm sharing my thoughts, not trying to convince.

Bar table players missing like crazy on a 9'. I notice bar table players taking chances and leaving themselves funny shots and angles again and again, but the pockets are just soft enough and the distances short enough for them to get away with it. They go to a 9' and can't keep making the recovery shots and half tough shots. They have to play better patterns and cue ball because they can't get away with it. But I suppose you could say it's a shooting problem because technically every run ends with a miss. If they just made everything that would solve their pattern problems. I guess that goes along with the whole '9/10 ball are simple games'. When your only tool is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail.

But we're all good. Maybe the guy at work who was telling me how good his friend was turned out to be right, and his friend actually was a Kim Davenport. Then the last laugh would be on me. Maybe among the ocean of people telling me they have all the knowledge but just struggle to do what they know they should do, maybe you are the guy who is legit in that camp. No problem. It could be the case. And one thing is for sure, as long as you believe that to be true I would definitely not be able to help you on your journey.

As another poster mentioned I am glad we can have a respectful conversation. I wish you the best and hope 2021 is a great year for your pool game. Time for me to get ready, training some pool today. Be well!!!

 

[Tin Man]

One addition. When I said the thing about everything looking like a nail, I wasn’t implying you were some caveman. You are obviously a strong thinking player. It was just an expression but in review it looked insulting.

Similarly there is an advantage to treating the game like it is simple. It’s easy to over complicated the game. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is an expression for a reason. The best players learn the game so well they do keep things very simple. It is a good sign if you play that way

 

[sjm]

Wow -- I guess I'm in select company with my most shocking post.

I sort of figured you would chime in on this one as I've always had a different view of the game than you. For example, for years you've intimated that the U.S. team's annual losses were largely due to these "errors in conceptualization", while I took a much simpler view -- they had poor fundamentals which caused them to miss shots and miss positional zones that their European counterparts did not.

I do think you hit on something in your final paragraph, about my game, that is accurate. I probably am a better technician than most players in my range. This is due in no small part to the fact that I've spent countless hours watching and analyzing the game, while others in my range were actually playing it. I've personally found working rigidly on my technique in the comparably small amount of time I have to spend on the table -- has allowed me to compete with players that almost completely dedicate their lives to the game.

Anyway, this topic has come up before and I've always looked at it as a ratio. So each player has a cue ball control (positional play) to shot making ratio that they must understand. I think I understand mine pretty well and I guess I'm questioning if I understand others as well as I think I do.

Actually, for years I've also noted that Team USA's sometimes forgettable pattern play had a lot to do with its eight year losing streak and that its cueists don't shoot as straight as those of Europe. I just took note of other problems as I saw them, but your assessments of the play, just like mine, are based on years of experience and observation.

Sounds to me like you've got a good approach. Watching and analyzing the game is, indeed, a short cut to learning the game's finer points, and doing so has brought me more than knowledge - it has brought me over 45 years of joy.

Finally, it's perfectly fine for you to have a different view of the game. Those of us who watch the game and evaluate what we see are, in a sense. like art critics and it's not important that we see things the same way, only that we see them. Good luck with your game.

 

[The_JV]

Dunning-Kruger

The above is not meant to be a slight at the OP at all. However, AZB has brought the DK-effect to the fore front of my mind more than anything else I've experienced.

It would be far too easy to ramble on and on, about pattern play .vs. fundamentals .vs. table IQ, but it's simply not my place to do so. All I can say is that if someone truly believes they don't need to work on any given portion of what it takes to play this game at a high level, then they are suffering from the DK-effect.

That said, if someone was offering lessons on the fundamentals I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. Not that I think my fundamentals are flawless. I just rather not spend my time being taught something I know I won't adopt. Pattern play, and table IQ I think is a different animal. You may be nearly flawless, but wouldn't you perfer to be nearly flawless in an easier manner...? Really boils down to risk/reward. The risk being the cost.

Several ways to skin this cat. We rarely abandon what appears to be a perfectly green lawn when we can't see through the fence to the other side...

 

[bbb]

Dunning-Kruger

The above is not meant to be a slight at the OP at all. However, AZB has brought the DK-effect to the fore front of my mind more than anything else I've experienced.

It would be far too easy to ramble on and on, about pattern play .vs. fundamentals .vs. table IQ, but it's simply not my place to do so. All I can say is that if someone truly believes they don't need to work on any given portion of what it takes to play this game at a high level, then they are suffering from the DK-effect.

That said, if someone was offering lessons on the fundamentals I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. Not that I think my fundamentals are flawless. I just rather not spend my time being taught something I know I won't adopt. Pattern play, and table IQ I think is a different animal. You may be nearly flawless, but wouldn't you perfer to be nearly flawless in an easier manner...? Really boils down to risk/reward. The risk being the cost.

Several ways to skin this cat. We rarely abandon what appears to be a perfectly green lawn when we can't see through the fence to the other side...

The better i get the more i realize how bad i am!!!

 

[Poolmanis]

BasementDweller. How about put some long race to ghost thread and I give my unbiased opinion if your patterns need work? Or you can pm me link also if you dont want to put it public . I remember watching your ghost vid years ago and i saw some mental mistakes but your child was roller skating there... so it does not count imo

 

[BasementDweller]

Thanks BD. Yes, I'll mellow a bit more each time I have this conversation in the future. I went through the same thing when I started working when I was young. At some point I'd bring up pool and without fail someone would have an uncle or a cousin or a friend that was 'really good'. I'd futilely explain the difference but they'd just draw a line and be all "But they play tournaments in Las Vegas!" There's just not much you're gonna say about that. People are gonna believe what they want. I'll hit you back on your responses but I'm sharing my thoughts, not trying to convince.

Bar table players missing like crazy on a 9'. I notice bar table players taking chances and leaving themselves funny shots and angles again and again, but the pockets are just soft enough and the distances short enough for them to get away with it. They go to a 9' and can't keep making the recovery shots and half tough shots. They have to play better patterns and cue ball because they can't get away with it. But I suppose you could say it's a shooting problem because technically every run ends with a miss. If they just made everything that would solve their pattern problems. I guess that goes along with the whole '9/10 ball are simple games'. When your only tool is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail.

But we're all good. Maybe the guy at work who was telling me how good his friend was turned out to be right, and his friend actually was a Kim Davenport. Then the last laugh would be on me. Maybe among the ocean of people telling me they have all the knowledge but just struggle to do what they know they should do, maybe you are the guy who is legit in that camp. No problem. It could be the case. And one thing is for sure, as long as you believe that to be true I would definitely not be able to help you on your journey.

As another poster mentioned I am glad we can have a respectful conversation. I wish you the best and hope 2021 is a great year for your pool game. Time for me to get ready, training some pool today. Be well!!!

Lol. That's always the response I get too.

Me: "I won't be around next weekend as I'm going to play in a tournament."
Person from normal world: "You ever played in Vegas because I have a friend at work that's really good and he's gone to Vegas a bunch of times."
Me: "Nah....I usually play closer to home and yeah he's probably really good."

Thanks for the back and forth. You're still on my radar.

 

[BasementDweller]

Dunning-Kruger

The above is not meant to be a slight at the OP at all. However, AZB has brought the DK-effect to the fore front of my mind more than anything else I've experienced.

It would be far too easy to ramble on and on, about pattern play .vs. fundamentals .vs. table IQ, but it's simply not my place to do so. All I can say is that if someone truly believes they don't need to work on any given portion of what it takes to play this game at a high level, then they are suffering from the DK-effect.

That said, if someone was offering lessons on the fundamentals I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. Not that I think my fundamentals are flawless. I just rather not spend my time being taught something I know I won't adopt. Pattern play, and table IQ I think is a different animal. You may be nearly flawless, but wouldn't you perfer to be nearly flawless in an easier manner...? Really boils down to risk/reward. The risk being the cost.

Several ways to skin this cat. We rarely abandon what appears to be a perfectly green lawn when we can't see through the fence to the other side...

(Continued as I'm on my lunch break)

I don't think that applies here as expertise in pool is not exactly the same as expertise in physics. I'll put my modesty aside here and say that I would actually consider myself an expert at pool. Not an expert at the highest level, but let's say at least a junior college level teacher.

For me -- it's most likely NOT a blind spot but instead it's what I've personally found to give me the most return on my time investment. For example if I had to pick between simply working on straight cueing vs running some intricate position play drill what would I do? Without fail, I've gotten more return out of the cueing drills. Now if I was actually practicing and playing multiple hours every day that would maybe change, but for guys (and gals) like me who don't get to compete all that much, what's the best way to spend their limited practice time? I guess we all need to answer that question for ourselves.

 

[BasementDweller]

BasementDweller. How about put some long race to ghost thread and I give my unbiased opinion if your patterns need work? Or you can pm me link also if you dont want to put it public . I remember watching your ghost vid years ago and i saw some mental mistakes but your child was roller skating there... so it does not count imo

Yeah....my game went to crap for a while as I really didn't play/practice much from summer through fall. Then with covid shutting things down, I decided to make a pretty major change to my game. But now .... things are clicking back into place. So I'll commit to posting a 10 ball ghost video within the next week or so. And not one of those precious selected, lightening strikes videos where I look perfect. I'll show my flaws.

 

[BasementDweller]

Actually, for years I've also noted that Team USA's sometimes forgettable pattern play had a lot to do with its eight year losing streak and that its cueists don't shoot as straight as those of Europe. I just took note of other problems as I saw them, but your assessments of the play, just like mine, are based on years of experience and observation.

Sounds to me like you've got a good approach. Watching and analyzing the game is, indeed, a short cut to learning the game's finer points, and doing so has brought me more than knowledge - it has brought me over 45 years of joy.

Finally, it's perfectly fine for you to have a different view of the game. Those of us who watch the game and evaluate what we see are, in a sense. like art critics and it's not important that we see things the same way, only that we see them. Good luck with your game.

To somewhat borrow your phrase:

This post has to be among the more beautifully written ones I've ever read on this forum.

It really is all about the joy that comes from stepping out and taking the journey.

Thanks for chiming in.

 

[sparkle84]

(Continued as I'm on my lunch break)

I don't think that applies here as expertise in pool is not exactly the same as expertise in physics. I'll put my modesty aside here and say that I would actually consider myself an expert at pool. Not an expert at the highest level, but let's say at least a junior college level teacher.

For me -- it's most likely NOT a blind spot but instead it's what I've personally found to give me the most return on my time investment. For example if I had to pick between simply working on straight cueing vs running some intricate position play drill what would I do? Without fail, I've gotten more return out of the cueing drills. Now if I was actually practicing and playing multiple hours every day that would maybe change, but for guys (and gals) like me who don't get to compete all that much, what's the best way to spend their limited practice time? I guess we all need to answer that question for ourselves.

I think you kind of succeeded in hammering home The JV's point.