Question on aiming, eye perception, and alignment

M

Makey98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, so I am a novice player . I played in Hs and ran a rack of 9 out every once in a while, and got my own table ( 15 years later) last year. My progress has been slow. Very slow. I need to get a lesson, but no funds at the moment.

However, I have spent a lot of time trying to develop a very straight consistent stroke. I have tried many different tools and techniques, body positions and so on. What I discoverd is that I could not physically hit a dead in stop shot with NO spin on the cue ball after contact. I could make the cue ball 8+ times out of 10, but the cue ball would still spin.

Recently been trying again and discovered that when I get lined up and everything is straight I CAN hit the ball dead stop pocket to pocket (about 1/2 lenght of table.) with no spin consistently. Last night I did this 19 out of 20. However, what I noticed is that when I do that I have to trick my eyes and just line up the stick and shoot. It actually looks to my eyes like I am going to hit to the left of the contact point. This is causing me much difficulty on my cut shots. I don't really use an "aiming system" per say. I have like just looking at the contact point and trying to get that area of the cue ball to hit the contact point. However, if I don't know what is "straight" becuase of eye tricks on straight in shots, I can't "see" this on cut shots so it messes me up.

So the problem is, if I shoot what looks to my eyes to be straight I have no problem making all kinds of cut shots (i am assuming I am putting unintended english on this and my eye has compensate) BUT then I go to hit a straight in shot or slight angle and miss becuase my stroke isn't straight and I throw it.

So then I am thinking WAY too much about stroke and hard to concentrate on patterns and speed. So I miss and this starts over again.

Sorry to babble on so long, but the question is, "has anyone discovered that their eyes "see" straight incorrectly and how did they compensate or adjust?
 
Joe Tucker's Third Eye Trainer comes with a video to self-repair the precise type of alignment issues you're facing.

While you're waiting for it in the mail, this drill will help and uses the rail as an added alignment aid.
 
Seeing Straight?

From what U described it seems to me that you might have your 'seeing point', 'dominant eye' or 'centered eye' whatever your 'seeing point' is off to the side of the stick line on those straight in shots. You probably are doing the same thing on cut shots but it is not as noticable due to all of the different angles that you are alternating looking at.

I don't know if this will help, but I unknowly developed an astigmatism in my dominatant shooting eye & all of a sudden started mising relatively easy cut shots that I 'never' mised before. In wondering why, I noticed that I had unconsciousy had moved the stick centered between my eyes. Not knowing why I had subconsciously done that, I made a deliberate effort to make sure that the stick was under my dominant shooting eye but the misses were still there. That is when I covered my dominant eye & all was well but when I coverd my non-dominant eye everything was blurry. I tried glasses but can not play well with them. I have adapted but... when there is anything that really requires seeing perfectly straight I now have to close my left eye to see it with my blurry but dominant right eye. I never shoot with one eye closed. I open it after I have lined the shot up with my dominant eye & then stroke the shot. In other words with both eyes open I am NOT seeing a PERFECTLY straight line.

I think you need to determine exactly what you are 'seeing' with. It could be a dominant eye or a centered vision or you could actually be alternating between the two or even your right & left eye. I doubt that is the case & certainly hope that it is not the case but who knows until you actually find out.

You might want to buy Gene's Perfect Aim DVD or maybe hook up with him either in person or over the phone.

Another insight is that I at times go to shoot a shot that looks clear to shoot but when I get down to shoot it (I shoot with a very low head position unless the CB & OB are very close together) the shot is actually partually blocked by another ball. The point is one may not be able to judge a staight lin acurately if the head is high vs more on line. I hope something in this long winded rant can help you.

Good Luck. I hope you can get it worked out.
Rick

PS Sorry guys. I actually thought I was sending a PM.
 
Thanks for the reply. I actually have the stroke trainer and tried it quite a few times. That is probably worth a shot to go back and mess with it again. I found that I thought it helped a bit, but when I took it off I had issues. Maybe just longer sessions. Do you just practice with it or try to run racks or what? Along the same lines is that I have a hard time with shots on the rail versus on the table. My it "looks" different to me and my body wants to adjust and I am not sure if that is good or bad. A shot off the rail into the corner pocket "looks" different than the exact same shot with my hand on the table, if that makes sense.
 
Makey98 said:
Thanks for the reply. I actually have the stroke trainer and tried it quite a few times. That is probably worth a shot to go back and mess with it again. I found that I thought it helped a bit, but when I took it off I had issues. Maybe just longer sessions. Do you just practice with it or try to run racks or what? Along the same lines is that I have a hard time with shots on the rail versus on the table. My it "looks" different to me and my body wants to adjust and I am not sure if that is good or bad. A shot off the rail into the corner pocket "looks" different than the exact same shot with my hand on the table, if that makes sense.
Click to expand...

Take all the object balls from the table. Use the cue ball only. Add the Third Eye on your cue stick and assume a center ball stance. Forget the pockets and "targets", just assume center ball stances from different reaches and angles stancing over the rails of the table.

If you find your "center ball aim" is off to one side on a consistent basis, you have several options:

1. Adjust as Joe demonstrates by accepting object balls that look like misses, for example, if you're always off to the left of center ball, aim all your object balls a tad "too much" to the right so they score.

2. Adjust your stroke thoughts. For example, if you aim center ball a tad left, take a regular stance and stroke but feel like you're stroking the right side of your tip or right side of your ferrule at your target.

3. Fix your stance. Your eyesight may be fine but you're too far from the ball with your feet or your bridge length and reaching for center ball, etc. Adjusting the stance might put your feel for center ball so that the Eye trainer is perfect as it should be.

Good luck. I'm happy to review video or photos from you or whatever helps.
 
Makey98 said:
... I have spent a lot of time trying to develop a very straight consistent stroke. I have tried many different tools and techniques, body positions and so on. What I discovered is that I could not physically hit a dead in stop shot with NO spin on the cue ball after contact. I could make the cue ball 8+ times out of 10, but the cue ball would still spin.
...
has anyone discovered that their eyes "see" straight incorrectly and how did they compensate or adjust?
Click to expand...
It is possible that your visual alignment is off. For information and advice (including video demonstrations) on how to correct this, see:

It is also possible that your stroke is not straight. For information and advice (including video demonstrations) on how to fix this, see:

Good luck,
Dave
 
This is what I call the "Is everything straight" drill.

There is the drill where you hit the CB down to the far short rail and have the CB come back to the cue stick tip.

I added a OB to this drill. Set up the CB and OB for a straight shot down to the far short rail. Harder than you think. The CB close enough to the OB for a easy stop shot.

The goal is the have the CB stop dead in its track, the OB go down to the far rail and come back and hit the CB dead center.

Good drill to test to if you know what a straight in shot looks like by having to set up a straight in shot.

You have to stroke on the the CB center line to prevent any side spin.

You have to be able to stroke straight.

Tough drill.
 
The drill Duckie describes is a good one.

You can increase the difficulty by putting CB and OB ball further apart after you get proficient at shorter distances.

Start with one rail apart, then two, then three.....

It is an excellent drill.

p.s. review Forcefollow's Youtube channel for a video of this drill.
 
Last edited:
Tony_in_MD said:
The drill Duckie describes is a good one.

You can increase the difficulty by putting CB and OB ball further apart after you get proficient at shorter distances.

Start with one rail apart, then two, then three.....

It is an excellent drill.

p.s. review Forcefollow's Youtube channel for a video of this drill.
Click to expand...

It is a good drill except where the rails are off. Donny Lutz showed me this drill which is arguably about the same difficulty but provides even better feedback and can be used for a variety of spins and speeds.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
It is a good drill except where the rails are off. Donny Lutz showed me this drill which is arguably about the same difficulty but provides even better feedback and can be used for a variety of spins and speeds.
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that "your" drill is better.

Actually, I'm not convinced your drill is YOUR drill. Since you admit that Donny Lutz showed you the drill, why not cite that in the article instead of having the reader assume that it's your own creation? You even go so far as to name the drill.

Poor form if you ask me.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
It is a good drill except where the rails are off. Donny Lutz showed me this drill which is arguably about the same difficulty but provides even better feedback and can be used for a variety of spins and speeds.
Click to expand...

This drill is better if you use progressive practice with it.

Having done both. A perfect stop shop is not harder to do then the drill example Duckie brought up because you have to control two balls.

Rails off? Still wondering about that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
This drill is better if you use progressive practice with it.

Having done both. A perfect stop shop is not harder to do then the drill example Duckie brought up because you have to control two balls.

Rails off? Still wondering about that?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Click to expand...

I have played on a Valley bar box that had rails so hard and bad that if you ran your finger along the front edge, it felt like a dull serrated knife.
Just bumps and dips. If you hit a shot into the rail there was no way to know where it going to bounce. It was an adventure for sure! :smile:
 
BasementDweller said:
I'm not convinced that "your" drill is better.

Actually, I'm not convinced your drill is YOUR drill.
Click to expand...

Well he does say that Donny showed it to him; so I am convinced it is not his drill (one he invented), because he said so.

BasementDweller said:
Since you admit that Donny Lutz showed you the drill, why not cite that in the article instead of having the reader assume that it's your own creation?
Click to expand...

I think that he should find out from Donny who showed him the drill, then contact him and find out who showed him the drill as far back as the living can be found and they should be hooked up to lie detectors just so we can be sure who exactly created the drill in the 1st place, and whenever it is referenced we should call it John Smith's that showed it to Donny Lutz's, that showed it to Matt Sherman's drill; after all we do need to give proper credit where proper credit is due.

BasementDweller said:
You even go so far as to name the drill.

Poor form if you ask me.
Click to expand...

Matt; I gotta go with BasementDweller here; shame on you, :eek:you have the audacity to name a drill:mad:; what were you thinking! Why don't you call it "The drill where you put the object ball on the 1st diamond a hair off the long rail and the cue ball 6-6.66 diamonds away from the object ball, right edge to right edge; left edge to left edge so it's straight into the corner pocket"? :angry:
 
I'm lucky to have a place that takes care of their tables. What can be done on a table where the rails are not so good is to use a corner pocket. Again setting up a straight shot, the goal where is to stop the CB dead and have the OB hit the center of the pocket.

This way you have to watch the OB go into the pocket which is a good thing really.

Then try to follow the OB in the pocket and notice how the balls enter the pocket. If they both hit center pocket, you are stroking straight.

The goal would be to finally have the at the CB told the opposite corner from the OB about 7 or more feet from the OB with the OB about 1 ft from the opposite corner pocket and do a 7 ft dead in the tracks stop shot and the OB hit center pocket. Then have the CB follow the OB from those distances into the center of the pocket. These distances are for 9 ft table so adjust for the size table you are using, but the concept is the same.
 
PGHteacher said:
Well he does say that Donny showed it to him; so I am convinced it is not his drill (one he invented), because he said so.



I think that he should find out from Donny who showed him the drill, then contact him and find out who showed him the drill as far back as the living can be found and they should be hooked up to lie detectors just so we can be sure who exactly created the drill in the 1st place, and whenever it is referenced we should call it John Smith's that showed it to Donny Lutz's, that showed it to Matt Sherman's drill; after all we do need to give proper credit where proper credit is due.



Matt; I gotta go with BasementDweller here; shame on you, :eek:you have the audacity to name a drill:mad:; what were you thinking! Why don't you call it "The drill where you put the object ball on the 1st diamond a hair off the long rail and the cue ball 6-6.66 diamonds away from the object ball, right edge to right edge; left edge to left edge so it's straight into the corner pocket"? :angry:
Click to expand...

Good grief. I don't know what has gotten in to me lately. :confused:

I might be losing my mind.

PGHteacher - thanks for the wake up call. My post was quite self righteous and I'm not normally like that.

Matt Sherman - sorry for the pointless, self righteous post.

Time for me to take a break from this place.

Be back in a while.
 
Well, the past couple days after posting this have been enlightening. I discovered what the problem is. Usually what happens is I play for a couple weeks and my stroke doesn't improve and then I give it up for a couple weeks. I come back motivated and start over again. Hopefully this time I will make a leap forward.

I redid a bunch of drills that were mentioned. I tried a million different combinations but i discovered it!!!!! The problem is my stroke has a SWERVE in it. It explains everything. Somehow my natural arm swing is pulling the but out away from my body and when I swing forward I move straight toward my bridge hand and then the tip swerves back to the right. I have mastered this that I consistently still manage to hit the dead center of the ball. I have done chalk test on my dot cue ball and I really do hit it dead center every time. So me eyes aren't messed up . What happens is if I look at the shot differently it must change the contact point and the swerve timing changes or something.

So I did a bunch of experimenting with different elbow positions, shoulder angles and I couldn't get rid of the swerve. If I "muscle it" I can get it to go straight but then when I relax and just let the elbow swing free the swerve comes back. Almost like the natural swing of my elbow is crooked. I wondered if my wrist or something had something to do with it, like if I was subtly turning my wrist out but I tried several wrist positions and different grips and no improvement.

So I didn't solve it but maybe I am closer! The swerve explains how I can hit 20 dead straight balls in a row when I hit stop shots firmly. I am aiming straight and hitting the center of the cue ball and the object ball goes in. But the cue ball sits there spinning like a top because I am brushing though the ball and putting right English on it. This explains why sometimes when I hit long soft shots I miss so badly because the unintended sidespin is throwing things off badly. Any thoughts??
 
Square No Spin

Makey98 said:
Well, the past couple days after posting this have been enlightening. I discovered what the problem is. Usually what happens is I play for a couple weeks and my stroke doesn't improve and then I give it up for a couple weeks. I come back motivated and start over again. Hopefully this time I will make a leap forward.

I redid a bunch of drills that were mentioned. I tried a million different combinations but i discovered it!!!!! The problem is my stroke has a SWERVE in it. It explains everything. Somehow my natural arm swing is pulling the but out away from my body and when I swing forward I move straight toward my bridge hand and then the tip swerves back to the right. I have mastered this that I consistently still manage to hit the dead center of the ball. I have done chalk test on my dot cue ball and I really do hit it dead center every time. So me eyes aren't messed up . What happens is if I look at the shot differently it must change the contact point and the swerve timing changes or something.

So I did a bunch of experimenting with different elbow positions, shoulder angles and I couldn't get rid of the swerve. If I "muscle it" I can get it to go straight but then when I relax and just let the elbow swing free the swerve comes back. Almost like the natural swing of my elbow is crooked. I wondered if my wrist or something had something to do with it, like if I was subtly turning my wrist out but I tried several wrist positions and different grips and no improvement.

So I didn't solve it but maybe I am closer! The swerve explains how I can hit 20 dead straight balls in a row when I hit stop shots firmly. I am aiming straight and hitting the center of the cue ball and the object ball goes in. But the cue ball sits there spinning like a top because I am brushing though the ball and putting right English on it. This explains why sometimes when I hit long soft shots I miss so badly because the unintended sidespin is throwing things off badly. Any thoughts??
Click to expand...

Have you ever had the feeling you are shooting the cue ball straight out of your chest with your cue?
 
Makey98 said:
I did a bunch of experimenting with different elbow positions, shoulder angles and I couldn't get rid of the swerve. If I "muscle it" I can get it to go straight but then when I relax and just let the elbow swing free the swerve comes back. Almost like the natural swing of my elbow is crooked.
Click to expand...
I think you're on the right track for this kind of problem. Have you tried getting into a comfortable stance without a cue ball or object ball, but just to see how your body parts work together most comfortably? That might help find the natural elbow/shoulders/head position that's comfortable and produces a straight stroke along the line of sight. Then it's a matter of developing a preshot routine that aligns your natural stance with the shot line.

I wondered if my wrist or something had something to do with it, like if I was subtly turning my wrist out but I tried several wrist positions and different grips and no improvement.
Click to expand...
I think a good non-interfering grip is as important as any other aspect of your stance and stroke. I like a "hinging v grip" because it stays straight through a range of grip pressures and during followthrough - and a relaxed wrist.

pj
chgo
 
Cj, I am not sure about straight out of chest. I used to kind of do that where my chest was well over my cue and the cue was under me. I had trouble developing a straight stroke and video taped myself and discovered I had a very bad chicken wing. So for the past year I have been trying what I do now. I am better now but still not a consistently straight stroke to run a straight pool rack out.

Patrick. Thanks, I will keep experimenting.
 
Makey98 said:
I wondered if my wrist or something had something to do with it, like if I was subtly turning my wrist out but I tried several wrist positions and different grips and no improvement.
Click to expand...
As PJ pointed out, the grip and wrist can certainly cause a non-straight (and ineffective) stroke. If you think this might be the case, you might find the following video useful:

Regards,
Dave
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top