Question regarding slumps

Ghosst

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
A question for instructors: we usually blame some kind of mental distraction as the cause for slumps in all sports. There are of course some physical problems that can cause them as well, but what reasons have you found for a complete loss of technique?

For example, an "A" player drops down to a "C" or "D" level because of a fundamental flaw in their stroke that develops overnight. But for a player to reach an "A" level isn't a random fluke, it's time and patience, a lot of practice, and massive amounts of actual play. If their stroke had been that far out to begin with, they would never have reached that level.

Have any of you found a reason for flaws like these? I've seen it happen when a person first learns to stroke/bridge/stand correctly because they're not used to this "new" method and it feels unnatural to them. But for an established player to have to start over it's a little puzzling. How your entire muscle memory can seemingly vanish?
 
None of this happens overnight. A lot of players have fundamental flaws that have been practiced to perfection. They probably hold them back somewhat, but they can still play consistently enough to maintain a skill level of A, B, C or whatever. Slumps generally occur when one of these flaws become more pronounced for one reason or another and it starts to impact your game in a more negative manner.

It can also occur due to becoming lazy in a few areas of your game. Maybe you play a little faster or slower than you used to. Perhaps you've become lazy with your set up, which is something that tends to happen after a period of excellent play where someone gets a little too confident.

There's so many reasons you can fall into a slump, but it's not overnight and it's not everything you're doing wrong it's just a little part. All you need to do is something simple as holding the cue a little too far back on the butt and within a week you're shotmaking will suffer.

The two fixes are, take some time off or completely breakdown your game go back to the basics. The first fix works great if you're just suffering from a bad attitude. You also tend to come back and rely on your muscle memory which hopefully will not include any new found bad habits. The second approach will lead to large improvement in your game, but its hard...very very very hard.
 
Ghosst said:
A question for instructors: we usually blame some kind of mental distraction as the cause for slumps in all sports. There are of course some physical problems that can cause them as well, but what reasons have you found for a complete loss of technique?

For example, an "A" player drops down to a "C" or "D" level because of a fundamental flaw in their stroke that develops overnight. But for a player to reach an "A" level isn't a random fluke, it's time and patience, a lot of practice, and massive amounts of actual play. If their stroke had been that far out to begin with, they would never have reached that level.

Have any of you found a reason for flaws like these? I've seen it happen when a person first learns to stroke/bridge/stand correctly because they're not used to this "new" method and it feels unnatural to them. But for an established player to have to start over it's a little puzzling. How your entire muscle memory can seemingly vanish?
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Complete loss of technique? Dropping down from an A to C or D level overnight?

I've never seen it, but the only thing I can think of would be either a mental breakdown or a sudden onset of a physical illness. Either way that player might want to get to a doctor ASAP.
 
The only thing I have ever seen do this to players was changes in vision... Take for instance the hardening of the lens from age... The hardening doesn't happen overnight but the point where the muscles cannot focus happens like that... You will have eyestrain leading up to it but you will still be able to focus until the threshold is hit....

High blood pressure and diabetes are 2 other things that can hit like a thief in the night......

I had a friend who developed diabetes and the first sign he had was his game dropped drastically because the blood sugar was impacting his vision...
 
Ghosst said:
A question for instructors: we usually blame some kind of mental distraction as the cause for slumps in all sports. There are of course some physical problems that can cause them as well, but what reasons have you found for a complete loss of technique?

For example, an "A" player drops down to a "C" or "D" level because of a fundamental flaw in their stroke that develops overnight. But for a player to reach an "A" level isn't a random fluke, it's time and patience, a lot of practice, and massive amounts of actual play. If their stroke had been that far out to begin with, they would never have reached that level.

Have any of you found a reason for flaws like these? I've seen it happen when a person first learns to stroke/bridge/stand correctly because they're not used to this "new" method and it feels unnatural to them. But for an established player to have to start over it's a little puzzling. How your entire muscle memory can seemingly vanish?
Click to expand...


Part of your answer is called "reference points".
In pool we refer to them as "check lists" or PSR's.

When we get into trouble we must always have a point to start at to correct the problem.

One way to get out of a slump is to find new information and try to insert it into your game.
randyg
 
FranCrimi said:
Complete loss of technique? Dropping down from an A to C or D level overnight?

I've never seen it, but the only thing I can think of would be either a mental breakdown or a sudden onset of a physical illness. Either way that player might want to get to a doctor ASAP.
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I'm with Fran. I suppose some vision problems could cause this kind of change. Like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_vitreous_detachment
 
The only thing I'm aware of was a sudden ear infection, the first ever in my life, that totally blocked my hearing. I'd asked and even as a baby I'd never had one before.

I've picked back up a bit, but the game's still very far off. I have a video of one of our matches, I'm just editing it to take out the random chatter in the background. I'll post it when I'm done.

For me it started by noticing I couldn't even get a ball to go the length of the table and back to my cue because of unintentional right side. My grip was off. Then my aim was still off, that was my stroke; always dropping my elbow. Now I'm down to speed control and some aiming. It's taken two weeks of constant practice to even get back to a "C".

But so that the post isn't just about me, I have seen it happen to others before too; an overnight change results in their stroke being terribly far off and it hadn't been there the night before. I was just curious if anyone had ever found a solution. It looks like the general consensus is still anything but general because a wide range of problems can cause errors. I'd also imagine that's why they're so hard to recover from quickly. It's not the first time I've had to start over (fundamentals suddenly forgotten) and I've helped others through it too.

As I said, I'll have to post a video; I've identified what I see wrong but I'd be interested in what others see.
 
Ghosst, you're asking for a solution, but I still don't even understand the problem. I guess it's possible that an ear infection could cause a sudden drop in skill level, but I would imagine you'd recover from that once it's been treated.

I've been in the pool world for a gazillion years and never saw an A player experience a sudden overnight drop to a C or D level. Plus, now you're saying you've seen it happen to others as well. It must be a horrifying sight.

Sure, post your link and I'm sure you'll see several opinions here about your game in the present. Regarding the past, only you have that memory unless you have before and after videos, which would be really interesting to see.
 
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FranCrimi said:
...but I would imagine you'd recover from that once it's been treated.
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That's really the question though, is it possible that could cause you to stop holding the cue right? Aiming right? Stroking right? Standing right?

I'll admit having one can affect your balance, hearing, and focus, but why do these problems continue even after the infection has cleared?

FranCrimi said:
It must be a horrifying sight.
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I think Cameron might be right with most people: it's something that was always there but came to the surface... Maybe I'm internalizing a bit with others.

FranCrimi said:
Regarding the past, only you have that memory unless you have before and after videos, which would be really interesting to see.
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Unfortunately, even though I encourage people to tape their matches I hadn't done it before myself. So sadly, we do only have my memory to go by. I do know I usually run no more than two innings at the table. I'm up to 4-5 right now.
 
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What I saw

After watching the video, I am not convinced that you have a consistent preshot routine.

Can you talk us through your process? It seems to me that you are making decisions when you are down on the ball. I noticed this on a few shots where you were peeking around the table while being down on the ball.

I noticed on a number of shots, you jump up badly. It was very noticeable on the shots after the 2:13 mark. On those shots where I did not see you jump up I did notice that while you are down on the ball your head and body is doing a lot of rocking up and down. You just did not look steady to me. I also don't see a consistent pattern in your warmup strokes. I saw you have anything between 2 and 13 warmup strokes before pulling the trigger.

Finally your hand placement at your start position is causing your forearm is not perpendicular to the floor.You will want to clean that up as well.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
After watching the video, I am not convinced that you have a consistent preshot routine.

Can you talk us through your process? It seems to me that you are making decisions when you are down on the ball. I noticed this on a few shots where you were peeking around the table while being down on the ball.

I noticed on a number of shots, you jump up badly. It was very noticeable on the shots after the 2:13 mark. On those shots where I did not see you jump up I did notice that while you are down on the ball your head and body is doing a lot of rocking up and down. You just did not look steady to me. I also don't see a consistent pattern in your warmup strokes. I saw you have anything between 2 and 13 warmup strokes before pulling the trigger.

Finally your hand placement at your start position is causing your forearm is not perpendicular to the floor.You will want to clean that up as well.
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I'm not an instructor.

Agree with the above. I also noticed that your right arm is bent and not striaght. This could be allowing your body to get into the shot.
 
I am not an instructor but I do know that if my balance is off (some anitbiotics can cause this) my game is off. This medically induced slump perhaps caused your mental attitude to be somewhat negative. Also, is the pretty girl a new person in your life? Could be a factor in where your interest is focussed (just a thought I had). Your attention doesn't appear to be fully engaged on the table.
Nell Drake
 
Ok I can address some of that:

As far as the game, yes, it's social, and I don't bring out a "kill" mindset with friends. It's also hard when I've just relearned to hold my cue to have the "win" mindset either. Because I didn't tape the worst parts from last week you're not seeing me teach my hand how to grip all over again, or how to stroke straight through. It's like every muscle just forgot out of the blue which I don't get. Muscle memory isn't supposed to just vanish.

The ear infection did cause me to lose balance and I can still see that when I walk. I've never had one before as I said, I wasn't aware how badly they can affect you.

Girls don't distract me, and these are my friends' wives. I mean "distract" as in, "get nervous". They do distract me when they yell my name and I'm playing, but that's to be expected.

I'll leave my commentary on the shots themselves for later, but I am taking some notes. Thanks for the feedback so far. It's tough to see what I still have to relearn but at least I've rebuilt some fundamentals so far.
 
Nice video.

I'm pretty sure that you jumped up on every shot that you missed. I only say that I'm 'pretty sure' because I only looked at the video once, but I know for sure that you jumped up on several of your missed shots. Maybe all.
 
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After watching another 10 hours of videos I think RandyG is on the money here. When I first saw his response I didn't agree with it, but given I'm the one playing badly right now, I'm in no position to question that and Randy is an excellent instructor.

Tony is right that I do look around, but that's to make certain I can clear the balls with my hand. Because I'm still a little off I'm making too many second guesses. I'm not planning while I'm down on the shot, just gauging the layout.

My arm being bent doesn't affect my shots much, I'm used to playing snooker and having my arm at weird angles. As long as I have a steady bridge I'm generally ok unless it's uncomfortable. It does make a difference to some players, I've just never had a problem with it.

I know I didn't mention everyone's post I just didn't want this to be a novel.

Here's my breakdown of what I see:

video said:
0:13 – Break – Other than the CB popping up I’m happy enough with that for right now. There’s a little elbow drop after contact, but that’s just me trying to get my cue out of the way.

0:52-0:53 – #15 - I can even see the change in my attitude down on this one between talking and shooting. I just look around to make sure my hand clears the balls and quickly check the layout again because I took my eyes off the shot. The stroke itself is near perfect and I’m not jumping up early. I was always playing for a rain-stun onto the #10.

1:12-1:20 - #10 – Happy with that stroke, disappointed though the table ran fast though and my position for the #11 is wasted.

1:33-1:37 - #14/#13 – I changed my bridge length and stance while I was down which is what I see causing me to miss the combo and I moved too much. Still a good stroke and my arm was bent because of the layout of the table. Again, a bent forearm for me is not a big problem but I’ll keep it in mind.

2:42-2:51 - #12/#14 – I’m just sighting in the #14 so I’m not down on the shot. I start to address the CB but I’m not actually down into my stance yet.

2:51-2:56 - #12/#14 – I only stand up on this once the ball is in. When I have someone right behind me I don’t stay down until everything finishes moving. As far as the stroke, I do move up a little on it which bothers me a little.

3:08-3:21 - #13 – I took extra time because I’m balanced on one leg. Stroke is fine and I stay down.

3:27 – My friend was saying something about liking that shot and thinking the game “was over”. I was just pointing out I still had the #12 at one end, the #11 at the other, and the #8 down at the first end. It’s just banter between people but I knew if I didn’t add the caption I’d get questions on what I was pointing at.

3:31-3:41 - #12 – I popped up a little at the end, but the CB is also coming back toward me. The slight pause and head turn is me checking the path to the #11.

4:11-4:15 - #11 – Elbow dropped, I hit just follow because of that instead of high-right which is why I both missed, and hit the obstacle balls.

6:25-6:35 - #11 – Elbow dropped.

7:46-7:55 - #11 – A little unsteady on my feet but the stroke itself is great. The CB ran a little; again the tables are very fast.

8:08-8:10 - #8 – Standing a little upright, but I have to use a nip shot as the CB and OB are close and in case I miss I want the CB in an awkward spot. Stroke is straight.
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I missed: 14/13, 11, 11. That might "only" 3 misses, but I’m used to running 2-3 tables. After watching the other videos I've taken since I can see the shots I miss are the ones where I grip the cue too tightly. I hadn't noticed that before so it's something I'll have to go back to.

From the thread:
Stay Focused
Stay Down
Stay Loose (grip)
Go easy on the American (Dr. Dave reference). (I suppose I could have written, "Stay Canadian")

Each time my elbow dropped or I came up, it was when I had a death grip on my cue. It's seeming to be the real cause here unless someone sees anything different.
 
Ghosst...Here's what I noticed right away, from your video. You have a very inconsistent set up and delivery process, and no eye pattern of any kind that I could see. You are moving your cue from the second your hand hits the cloth, until you strike the CB. You cannot aim while your cue is moving (at least you have to stop your cue momentarily to "see" if you're lined up right). On the shots you missed you are moving your head and body as you strike the CB. Watch your partner...see how quiet his upper body is, and how still his cue is after he hits the CB. Then look at how animated you are...you're moving all over the place. Your cue is going up in the air because your grip is too tight...just as Randy perceived. You need to figure out what you're going to do...before you get down on the shot. Then, you can move your cue while you aim, but stop your cue at the CB for a little bit, to let your brain confirm whether you "like" your alignment or not. If you're good to go, do the same process...a few warmups (2 or 3...not 10 or more), and stop your cue again, tip at the CB. This is where your subconscious decides if you're going to hit the CB on the next swing, or not (this is also where you consciously tell yourself to relax and GRIP LOOSE...the grip pressure should be the same all the way through the process...on the backswing, at the transition, and for the forward stroke). There is no maybe...either you are or you aren't. If you're not ready, don't shoot. You don't necessarily have to stand up and start over, but you will have to repeat the same process...aim/stop; warm up/stop; slow backswing/stop; smooth forward stroke, to your natural finish (your tip should end up on or near the cloth on almost every shot...never up in the air). Hope this helps...:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Sorry for the quiet spell, I've been busy with work and absorbing as much as I can in the responses. I do appreciate the replies and have been trying to change what has been pointed out. I've always started stroking as soon as my hand was on the table, but watching it it almost seems OCD to me now. I'll take and edit more videos over the next few days to see if there's a change but I did run a couple of barboxes last night so it must have made some difference. I caught myself twice stroking the second I put my bridge hand down and had to stand up, remind myself to "behave" and start over. The key here will be forcing myself to keep the changes permanent and not revert back to bad form.

That might be part of the problem I originally asked about and the answer to why I see it not only with me but others on occasion. First you learn bad habits, then someone teaches you to fix them and that sticks for a while. But when something distracts you, whether mentally or physically you revert back to the bad habits. So technically you don't "forget how to play" you just "forget how to play correctly".

The not stroking part will have to be mechanical for now but hopefully that too will become second nature.
 
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