Questions about English

J

JDP12

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Hello all- I've been doing some research on English and its applications and this is basically what I've come up with...

Front or back hand english is better than parallel.

The less english used the better.

English should be used for position, not to make balls.


Now my question is this. Short of experimenting, how much does hitting a ball with english really affect the object balls trajectory? I've read in some books that it really doesn't, and more so only affects the cue balls trajectory after making contact. Is this true? In hand with that, i've also seen that if you hit a ball with right hand english you should slightly compensate to the right when you are aiming for the slightly different path the object ball will be sent on...Is that correct?

SO basically my 3 questions..

1) How much does english really affect object ball trajectory?

2) Is there a need to compensate slightly when aiming, if you are applying english correctly?

3) Backhand or fronthand? Or a combination? I've read some threads on here about combinations of both and that being what professionals use.
 
JDP12 said:
Hello all- I've been doing some research on English and its applications and this is basically what I've come up with...

Front or back hand english is better than parallel.

Not true.

The less english used the better.

Definitely true.

English should be used for position, not to make balls.

For the most part, this is true (depends on the shot).



Now my question is this. Short of experimenting, how much does hitting a ball with english really affect the object balls trajectory? I've read in some books that it really doesn't, and more so only affects the cue balls trajectory after making contact. Is this true? In hand with that, i've also seen that if you hit a ball with right hand english you should slightly compensate to the right when you are aiming for the slightly different path the object ball will be sent on...Is that correct?

SO basically my 3 questions..

1) How much does english really affect object ball trajectory?

Again, it depends a lot on the shot angle, and stroke speed.

2) Is there a need to compensate slightly when aiming, if you are applying english correctly?

If it is more than a 'rolling' speed shot, then absolutely.

3) Backhand or fronthand? Or a combination? I've read some threads on here about combinations of both and that being what professionals use.

Not true.
Click to expand...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
sfleinen said:
Who's "Dr. Tom"? Are you referring to Tom Rossman, a.k.a. Dr. Cue? Or "Dr. Dave" Alciatore?

For the benefit of the original poster, here's links to both:

Tom Rossman ("Dr. Cue"):
http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D9B8803599EEBC5A

Dave Alciatore ("Dr. Dave"):
http://billiards.colostate.edu/

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
Click to expand...


There I was ... being confused... again!

Thanks for the save Sean..
I was actually talking about Dr. Dave.. but got Tom Rossman twisted in there some how..
 
JDP12 said:
Short of experimenting, how much does hitting a ball with english really affect the object balls trajectory? I've read in some books that it really doesn't,
Click to expand...

You mean there are really books that say that?

You can see for yourself very easily. Set up a straight-in shot where the object ball is 3 or 4 inches from the cue ball, and 6 feet from the pocket. Shoot softly with sidespin. You missed, probably by a lot. At that short distance between the balls, squirt and swerve hardly matter and you are left with throw. This is an extreme example of throw but a pure one.

The beauty of this shot is that you can see the throw with the naked eye. You see the object ball being hit full in the face but it taking off at an angle. The effect is smaller when the balls are clean or waxed.
 
JDP12 said:
Front or back hand english is better than parallel.
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as "parallel" english - you probably mean adjusting your aim "by feel".

You can't just choose which method to use (except "by feel"). Fronthand english only works well with low squirt cues and backhand english only works well with high squirt cues. It might help if you knew what these terms mean.

Is there a need to compensate slightly when aiming, if you are applying english correctly?
Click to expand...

Yes. Maybe more than slightly.

Backhand or fronthand? Or a combination? I've read some threads on here about combinations of both and that being what professionals use.
Click to expand...

As I said above, it depends on your shaft more than anything else. And "both" really means "by feel".

pj
chgo
 
JDP12 said:
Front or back hand english is better than parallel.
Click to expand...
This depends on the cue (amount of squirt) and the shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, and ball/cloth conditions. For more info, see:


JDP12 said:
The less english used the better.
Click to expand...
Agreed ... except when it is needed.

JDP12 said:
English should be used for position, not to make balls.
Click to expand...
Agreed ... except when it is needed (e.g., with a throw shot).

JDP12 said:
Now my question is this. Short of experimenting, how much does hitting a ball with english really affect the object balls trajectory?
Click to expand...
I think it is important to distinguish between the initial OB direction (which is most certainly affected by throw) and any "turn" or "swerve" in the OB path. There can be a tiny amount of OB turn and/or swerve, but the amount is too insignificant to be useful in a practical sense, IMO. For more info, see:


JDP12 said:
SO basically my 3 questions..

1) How much does english really affect object ball trajectory?
Click to expand...
Throw is most definitely really and important. OB "turn" and "swerve" are theoretically possible, but not significant enough to be important or useful.

JDP12 said:
2) Is there a need to compensate slightly when aiming, if you are applying english correctly?
Click to expand...
If you have taken squirt, swerve, and throw into consideration during your "correct application," then the answer is no. For more info, see:


JDP12 said:
3) Backhand or fronthand? Or a combination? I've read some threads on here about combinations of both and that being what professionals use.
Click to expand...
It depends on the equipment and the shot. For more info, see:


Regards,
Dave
 
Holy cow.... there's alot more to this than I originally thought.


I guess I'll read through those links and see what I can find...When I get home I will go and look at the vidoes as well

Although from the replies it sounds like this is correct in general...

Once everything has been taken into consideration and adjusted for, english should have very little effect on the path of the OB ball.

However, if it does then I did something wrong.

it seems like the best way to figure out if i'm doing it correctly is to line up a straight shot, and if I am able to hit the ball straight on while having English applied and it goes in, then I applied it correctly and did all the correct "compensations"?

Thanks for helping out a beginner
 
English counts for a lot in banking. In fact, I would recommend that you get comfortable with english before undertaking bank shots involving cutting of the object ball.

The main use for english when a rail is not involved is to offset collision induced throw. I am debating whether correcting with english or with increased cut angle is superior. I've been letting my Centennials get really dirty over the last two months so I can get enought throw to find out.
 
Dead Crab:
The main use for english when a rail is not involved is to offset collision induced throw. I am debating whether correcting with english or with increased cut angle is superior.
Click to expand...

Here's how I look at it:

If you have a nearly straight shot, do you create the slight angle needed by adding sidespin to create a little throw or by changing your aim? All else being equal, I think nearly everybody will change their aim to create a slight cut angle. Why? Because adding throw with sidespin is guesswork.

Exactly neutralizing throw with sidespin is the same kind of guesswork (in reverse), but even more difficult when applied to a variety of cut angles. I think it must be much more accurate and consistent to change the cut angle to compensate for throw than to try to eliminate it with sidespin. This is compounded by the fact that the objective, a stun hit, is the most sensitive to slight variances (not to mention the usual objection that sidespin creates its own aiming issues because of squirve).

pj
chgo
 
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english should have very little effect on the path of the OB ball
Click to expand...

Often it's enough that you need to compensate for it (usually when the shot is more full and the CB has less top or bottom spin). This is also true of "collision induced" throw, which is created by the same rubbing friction between the balls (for angled cut shots), but without the sidespin.

pj
chgo
 
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JDP12 said:
it seems like the best way to figure out if i'm doing it correctly is to line up a straight shot, and if I am able to hit the ball straight on while having English applied and it goes in, then I applied it correctly and did all the correct "compensations"?

Thanks for helping out a beginner
Click to expand...

There's a lot to it if you're just starting out. I recommend that you real Dr. Dave's links first or we might just be confusing you.

As for the quote above, if the shot is straight and you hit if full with english applied, you will probably "throw" it offline and it will miss. The object of the compensations referred to (backhand and/or fronthand english, fine-tuned for swerve and throw) are to allow you to aim straight on to make the shot but not hit the object ball straight on. In effect, you fool yourself into thinking you are aiming for the non-english contact point when you actually are not - the cue is not pointing straight on with these compensations. There, I've probably confused you more. Read Dr. Dave.
 
OK so I've done some more reading....

here's what I'm seeing... correct me if i'm wrong..

First step.

Determine pivot length by hitting a ball with one tip left and measuring how long it takes the cue ball to get to one pivot length...It says in the article that is defined as how long it takes for the CB to be offline exactly the amount of sideway's tip offset.

Is that saying, if you hit it with one tip to the right, how long it takes the cueball to deviate one tip width from a straight path? I'm assuming...

Second step. Calculate PPe.. it says it is the pivot point required for a 5 foot shot at speed factor 3, enough to bounce 2 rails back to original position... I don't really get how that is found... can someone help me?

Third Step. Calculate K

Fourth STep... determine D, distance, V, speed, and H.

Fifth step... Determine PPe... PPe=PPi+DVK+H. Then that should give what the pivot length is, how much to pivot the cue and then compensate aim slightly based on that squirt.

Sixth step... hit the ball!

Did i get this down right for figuring out how to correctly use English?

It says in the article to alter bridge length... But I didn't see anywhere in the formula how to change that bridge length.. is bridge length the PPe?

Thanks
 
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To get started all you really need to do for backhand english is use different bridge lengths and find the one where the ball goes where you intended:

1. set a target on a rail (chalk mark is fine)

2.go to other end of table. aim at the target as you would without english. Then, move your back hand slightly to get the desired tip offset for english (without moving your bridge hand).

3. execute your stroke

4. repeat above at different bridge lengths until you can hit the target consistently. Where your bridge is when the cue ball goes straight, is your pivot point, usually 9-12" from the cue ball. If this matches your natural bridge length, you have the right cue.
 
OK so basically alter my bridge length until I can hit a shot with the desired english without having to alter my aim too much? That's what I was getting from that post..

The video did help.

Any other recommendations?
 
To get it down to some really basic general rules (that have exceptions):

1. The path of a ball hit with sidespin curves a little tiny bit over a long distance because of sidespin, but forget about this entirely. The amount is so small you don't need to care. In fact forget I even mentioned it =) And if a book tells you to worry about it, ignore that book. The curve will only become significant if you jack up the ass end of the stick a bit. Then the ball will curve more sharply and can cause a miss.

2. 99% of the time, you don't use sidespin to make a ball, and you don't use sidespin to position a ball when there's no intention of touching a rail. Sidespin is to control how the ball comes off the rails, and that's pretty much it. The exceptions are pretty rare.. they're worth knowing, but for now, a good rule of thumb is to forget sidespin unless you're hitting rails to get position. A common noob mistake is to try to hit hard with sidespin when there's not enough angle, because they think the sidespin carries the cue ball further. Like they want the cue ball to go more left, so they pound it with left sidespin. It doesn't work like that.

3. Throw will alter the path of the object ball, and it can alter it enough to cause a shot to be missed. I think that if you use a "normal" amount of sidespin, then the throw effect won't be so large that you'll miss the shot... assuming you sent the shot into the middle of the pocket, and the pocket isn't tight. However if you didn't hit the shot into the center of the pocket, or the pocket is tight, then the throw effect can cause you to screw up a few shots. The effect is larger with mildly angled cuts (around 30 degrees or so?) and at slower speeds. If you slam a ball in, the effect is minimal.

So, worry about throw if you plan on shooting a bit soft, and if there's some reason you can't or don't want to send the OB right into the middle of the pocket. Don't worry about it on thin cuts. Especially be careful of people who claim that the best way to make a thin cut is to try to spin it in with outside english.

3. Squirt can be huge for certain shots. Like try sitting the cue ball on the spot and drilling it with sidespin to the exact middle of the opposite. The cue ball may go off to the side as much as half a ball, depending on your stick. Forceful shots with lots of sidespin are the ones where you'll be compensating a lot. From my experience, inside english shots are the ones where you really must worry about the compensation. Outside english shots for whatever reason typically end up being shots where less force is needed, maybe because the english helps the cue ball run along the rails by itself. There are exceptions but the #1 most common shot where I worry a lot about deflection is this: http://creedo.gbgl-hq.com/insidedrill1.jpg ...and aside from that shot, I don't end up having to stress a lot about deflection. Maybe if you play more 9 ball than 8 ball, you'll come across shots that need this much force and sidespin.

4. I wouldn't worry at all about front hand vs. backhand. Plenty of great players learned english without worrying too much about exactly how they choose to apply it. It's good to be analytical about your game and your stroke, but past a point it becomes counterproductive. Get down on your shot and position the tip to apply sidespin. Whatever you just did... keep doing that, because that's what you intuitively chose and it probably makes the most sense.
 
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1. The path of a ball hit with sidespin curves a little tiny bit over a long distance because of sidespin, but forget about this entirely. The amount is so small you don't need to care. In fact forget I even mentioned it =) And if a book tells you to worry about it, ignore that book. The curve will only become significant if you jack up the ass end of the stick a bit. Then the ball will curve more sharply and can cause a miss.
Click to expand...

This is an understatement. Swerve is a significant factor in almost all sidespin shots, even with your stick as level as you can get it. In fact, I think swerve is a bigger factor than squirt in missing shots because it's always present and it varies so much.

You don't necessarily have to be conscious of swerve in order to shoot well, just like you don't necessarily have to be conscious of squirt in order to shoot well - you can simply aim by "feel" (most players do) and let your subconscious take care of the calculations. But if you're one of those who does these things consciously, swerve is something to definitely keep in mind.

pj
chgo
 
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