Questions about tournaments and green fees.

[inside_english]

When you enter a tournament, are you concerned with how much of the entry fee counts toward green fees?

I have heard some complain that the green fees were too high for some events.

Of course, we all know players who would complain about every dollar in every event, but I am speaking in somewhat general terms.

What is your limit? How much of the entry fee is too much for Greens?

Do you think tournament organizers should announce it, or list it on flyers at all?

Thoughts please.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I would say it is a non issue for me very often because I know the room owner and believe the room owner to be honorable!!!!

I do know of scenarios that boarder on the unethical!!!!

Examples: Saying "added money" and "the Green Fee" either matches or exceeds the amount added!!!!

This above scenario means the room owner has offered ZERO value to the players and only benefits from the increased traffic and food sales!!!!

So, in this scenario the room owner benefits at the expense of the players. Social players don't care. But, the road warriors that feed on these pay days to make ends meet and put food on the table for them its a big deal!

Just my 2 cents!

KD

 

[DGHustles]

I would say it is a non issue for me very often because I know the room owner and believe the room owner to be honorable!!!!

I do know of scenarios that boarder on the unethical!!!!

Examples: Saying "added money" and "the Green Fee" either matches or exceeds the amount added!!!!

This above scenario means the room owner has offered ZERO value to the players and only benefits from the increased traffic and food sales!!!!

So, in this scenario the room owner benefits at the expense of the players. Social players don't care. But, the road warriors that feed on these pay days to make ends meet and put food on the table for them its a big deal!

Just my 2 cents!

KD

I completely agree. Generally a non-issue but with so many tournament operators keeping this information on the hush, it is difficult to not wonder if you are getting a good deal or not as a player. For me, it does not affect at all because I am looking to get my game better and may be able to play well enough to make a few dollars. But I know for damn sure that if I was winning many regional events I would be more aware of the fee structure.

Additionally I think transparency is always a good thing. TD's should publicize this information, it is only fair to players to know what kind of equity is in the tournament.

Btw Curtis looking forward to Big Daddy's tourney! Pumped its back!

 

[manfromoz]

Interesting

I can see both sides of this issue and I wrestled with this very topic myself. I agree with DG Hustles that everyone likes transparency...including me. However, I can tell you from personal experience that transparency can sometimes be detrimental to our sport because of a few bad apples. For some strange reason, many pool players believe that neither the pool room nor the TD should profit one dime and ALL proceeds should go to the players.

I read a thread once where a TD announced a $100 entry fee tournament, no money added, with a max of 64 players. When the payouts were added up, it totaled $6,000. In this case, the TD was retaining $400 while the room was allowing uninhibited access to the pool tables all weekend in exchange for the "hope" of increased food and beverage sales. Numerous players quickly did the math and jumped on the forum to criticize the TD. They actually expected the TD to travel to the room, pay for a hotel, provide all of the many necessities that a tournament requires, and spend all weekend running it...for nothing. Then, rather than purchasing food and beverage at the room, they wait for a break in the action and go down the street to McDonalds just to save a couple of bucks. Many players actually demand this non-compensation from pool rooms and TDs and will quickly spread their logic (or non-logic in my opinion) to thousands of people instantly over the web. With these unrealistic expectations and demands, in the end, there will be no tournaments...and we all lose.

Believe me when I say that there is nothing lucrative about running pool tournaments! However, in order to prevent chaos started by people who don't have a clue about the various expenses of running a tournament (especially if you are streaming), I believe it is sometimes best to keep that information proprietary and let the history of payouts from a TD speak for itself. No matter what the circumstances, some people will use whatever information you provide to try and bring you down. Just a perspective that I thought I would share.

 

[ironman]

When you enter a tournament, are you concerned with how much of the entry fee counts toward green fees?

I have heard some complain that the green fees were too high for some events.

Of course, we all know players who would complain about every dollar in every event, but I am speaking in somewhat general terms.

What is your limit? How much of the entry fee is too much for Greens?

Do you think tournament organizers should announce it, or list it on flyers at all?

Thoughts please.

Yes it should definitely be listed. if not someone should be asking questions in front of everyone.

 

[#Cruncher]

I think if the added money is greater than then the "green fee" money taken out, then its a tournament to consider attending.

However, to the comment about "the room owner adding 0 value" when added money = the "green fee" taken out, that's not exactly true.

The room owner will be unable to charge table time for those tables being used for the tournament and the increased traffic does not always bring increased food/drink sales from many tournament players.

I guess I see both sides of the argument, and the bottom line is, pool tournaments run on the supply/demand chain. As long as players attend, the current formats will stay relatively the same.

 

[dardusm]

The tournament should be transparent. If I'm going to travel to a tournament, I like to look at what I call "odds on the money". I want to know how much is going to be in the prize fund. That way I can make up my mind as to whether the tournament makes fiscal sense. Where do I need to finish to break even for the tournament? What does first pay in relation to the entry? 10 to 1? 20 to 1? I would include green fees or estimation of quarters as part of the entry for the calculation. Some tournaments I just want to play and the money isn't as important.

If I'm traveling to a tournament say 250 miles away with a $35.00 entry with $15.00 green fees. Gas and hotel for a night would put my nut at say $175.00. 1st place pays $1000.00 but 5/6 pays 125.00 then I would need to finish 4th or better to break even. I probably wouldn't do this tournament unless I just wanted to get out of town and play.

 

[3andstop]

Greens fees should be disclosed to players. Too many times it isn't the room owner that's charging too much. Sometimes the tournament director takes a big chunk and never even discusses it with the room owner.

 

[inside_english]

I completely agree. Generally a non-issue but with so many tournament operators keeping this information on the hush, it is difficult to not wonder if you are getting a good deal or not as a player. For me, it does not affect at all because I am looking to get my game better and may be able to play well enough to make a few dollars. But I know for damn sure that if I was winning many regional events I would be more aware of the fee structure.

Additionally I think transparency is always a good thing. TD's should publicize this information, it is only fair to players to know what kind of equity is in the tournament.

Btw Curtis looking forward to Big Daddy's tourney! Pumped its back!

Just an FYI DGHustles...I am not running the upcoming Big Daddy's events.

Thanks.

 

[dannyb78]

I can see both sides of this issue and I wrestled with this very topic myself. I agree with DG Hustles that everyone likes transparency...including me. However, I can tell you from personal experience that transparency can sometimes be detrimental to our sport because of a few bad apples. For some strange reason, many pool players believe that neither the pool room nor the TD should profit one dime and ALL proceeds should go to the players.

I read a thread once where a TD announced a $100 entry fee tournament, no money added, with a max of 64 players. When the payouts were added up, it totaled $6,000. In this case, the TD was retaining $400 while the room was allowing uninhibited access to the pool tables all weekend in exchange for the "hope" of increased food and beverage sales. Numerous players quickly did the math and jumped on the forum to criticize the TD. They actually expected the TD to travel to the room, pay for a hotel, provide all of the many necessities that a tournament requires, and spend all weekend running it...for nothing. Then, rather than purchasing food and beverage at the room, they wait for a break in the action and go down the street to McDonalds just to save a couple of bucks. Many players actually demand this non-compensation from pool rooms and TDs and will quickly spread their logic (or non-logic in my opinion) to thousands of people instantly over the web. With these unrealistic expectations and demands, in the end, there will be no tournaments...and we all lose.

Believe me when I say that there is nothing lucrative about running pool tournaments! However, in order to prevent chaos started by people who don't have a clue about the various expenses of running a tournament (especially if you are streaming), I believe it is sometimes best to keep that information proprietary and let the history of payouts from a TD speak for itself. No matter what the circumstances, some people will use whatever information you provide to try and bring you down. Just a perspective that I thought I would share.

Damn Ozzy, there are two many big words in this post. Now I know why I work on boats. I can't understand half the crap in this post. LOL

 

[cardiac kid]

Ozzy,

You speak the truth. Listening to some of my fellow competitors sometimes makes me sick. They complain about the percentage retained by the TD. None of them are willing to do the job for free. Just the TD should out of the goodness of his/her heart. The room owners should also take a loss on the event. They have no financial stake in the outcome of the event. They get their money regardless. What??? Lets keep harrassing the room owners, tour and tounament operators. One day they'll be gone and the players will get 100%. Of nothing!!!!

Lyn

 

[canwin]

Ozzy,

You speak the truth. Listening to some of my fellow competitors sometimes makes me sick. They complain about the percentage retained by the TD. None of them are willing to do the job for free. Just the TD should out of the goodness of his/her heart. The room owners should also take a loss on the event. They have no financial stake in the outcome of the event. They get their money regardless. What??? Lets keep harrassing the room owners, tour and tounament operators. One day they'll be gone and the players will get 100%. Of nothing!!!!

Lyn

I can't wait for the day when pool goes back to being like it was or pool players would grow a set of balls and quit being pool pussies that just take it in the shorts and like it when they know they're getting . .. That will never happen because they're all ducks anyway. Green fees, being filmed, jerked around, favoritism in many different ways they don't even know or could even think of. There's more business done at a tournaments akin to a legal form of dumping(all the players money into whoevers pocket suits them). Are TD's really that important? How the hell hard is it too write names on a chart or make a call. Ask Gay Heffer..talk about your opaque business model . .and behind the scenes business. Him and the wincard getting run out of Reno. Cons are running the show from the top to the bottom. The average pool player just thinks of bragging rights instead of money. Entertainment baby!
No need for replies..just think about it in your spare time. My posts are strictly for entertainment value without all the business attached unlike tournaments ..
Canwin

 

[cardiac kid]

I can't wait for the day when pool goes back to being like it was or pool players would grow a set of balls and quit being pool pussies that just take it in the shorts and like it when they know they're getting . .. That will never happen because they're all ducks anyway. Green fees, being filmed, jerked around, favoritism in many different ways they don't even know or could even think of. There's more business done at a tournaments akin to a legal form of dumping(all the players money into whoevers pocket suits them). Are TD's really that important? How the hell hard is it too write names on a chart or make a call. Ask Gay Heffer..talk about your opaque business model . .and behind the scenes business. Him and the wincard getting run out of Reno. Cons are running the show from the top to the bottom. The average pool player just thinks of bragging rights instead of money. Entertainment baby!
No need for replies..just think about it in your spare time. My posts are strictly for entertainment value without all the business attached unlike tournaments ..Canwin

Can't wait for the First Annual Canwin 8/9/10/14.1/Banks/1P Open Tournament in Vegas. $150 Entry Fee per event. No greens fees. No registration fees. All the money goes to the players prize fund. Posters, flyers, tournament charts and all event promotion provided by Canwin free of charge. Table set up and removal at no charge to the players. If Canwin chooses to have a player auction, it will be 100% payout to the players. He will do the auction for free as well. Sure wouldn't want anyone to make money running the event off the players!

Lyn

 

[canwin]

Can't wait for the First Annual Canwin 8/9/10/14.1/Banks/1P Open Tournament in Vegas. $150 Entry Fee per event. No greens fees. No registration fees. All the money goes to the players prize fund. Posters, flyers, tournament charts and all event promotion provided by Canwin free of charge. Table set up and removal at no charge to the players. If Canwin chooses to have a player auction, it will be 100% payout to the players. He will do the auction for free as well. Sure wouldn't want anyone to make money running the event off the players!

Lyn

The most of the money that's made from the Vegas events come when the promoter gets discounted room rates.So there's a multiplication factor of 1000's right there. Then there's the quarters and sponsor money/food/green fees which probably accounts for the expenses. Now take multiple 9 or more day events then think about it. . IMO most of the things are provided free anyway. You can advertise free on the internet. You probably have a venue discount for bringing so much traffic.
I like the idea of me starting tournaments though. .
What we are talking about though is transparency which is nil in the pool world. Added money that's not there, green fees charges, being filmed for the profit of someone else. Everyone bustin there asses for the players. Anytime someone busts their ass for something in the pool world, it's about the money to be made. Doin it to promote the game, or for the love of the game means doin it for the dinero.
I like the idea of running tournaments though..you'll be there won't you?

 

[DGHustles]

Just an FYI DGHustles...I am not running the upcoming Big Daddy's events.

Thanks.

oh, what happened? just didnt want to do it? Are you currently running any other tourneys?

 

[cardiac kid]

The most of the money that's made from the Vegas events come when the promoter gets discounted room rates.So there's a multiplication factor of 1000's right there. Then there's the quarters and sponsor money/food/green fees which probably accounts for the expenses. Now take multiple 9 or more day events then think about it. . IMO most of the things are provided free anyway. You can advertise free on the internet. You probably have a venue discount for bringing so much traffic.
I like the idea of me starting tournaments though. .
What we are talking about though is transparency which is nil in the pool world. Added money that's not there, green fees charges, being filmed for the profit of someone else. Everyone bustin there asses for the players. Anytime someone busts their ass for something in the pool world, it's about the money to be made. Doin it to promote the game, or for the love of the game means doin it for the dinero.
I like the idea of running tournaments though..you'll be there won't you?

Absolutely I'll be there. Live 12 minutes from the strip. Seriously, I understand your points. I've spent years supporting the Joss Tour. Never won one. Second to Hatch last year was my best finish (to date). Started adding up the "fees" and comparing them to the payouts years ago at all the events I attended across the country. Yes, there were some events where the payouts were out of line. Way too much money to the promoter / TD. Realistically, they have to make some money to keep doing the events. Without profit, there is no reason to continue. I have no problem with that. Finding a balance is the hard part. Seems to be the problem for us pool players and the politicians who guide our country. Big problem! Thanks for the banter.

Lyn

 

[inside_english]

oh, what happened? just didnt want to do it? Are you currently running any other tourneys?

My work schedule is brutal...but not complaining. It's job security.

From the outset (September 2010), I had explained to Big Daddy's that I would not be available to run all events...and that my expectation was that they will eventually take it over...which is what is happening now. I wish them nothing but success going forward. They are good people and have one of the nicest rooms that I have been in. Clean, respectable, with decent food. You can take your Mom to this place...literally.

I do intend to run events at other venues in MD/VA...stay tuned.
I want to experience different atmospheres, different settings, etc.
Since my work schedule is so demanding (as I sit here on the forums during the workday, lol) I cannot commit to any regularly-scheduled events...hence the large gaps between events for me. Plus...I DO like to play in them once in awhile...

See you soon.

 

[inside_english]

I can't wait for the day when pool goes back to being like it was or pool players would grow a set of balls and quit being pool pussies that just take it in the shorts and like it when they know they're getting . ..
First of all, I hope pool will never go back to the way it was. Some of us are hoping it moves away from the back-room atmosphere as much as possible so we can attract more sponsorship and MORE MONEY...for EVERYONE. Besides, not all TDs and organizers are out to screw the players over.

That will never happen because they're all ducks anyway. Green fees, being filmed, jerked around, favoritism in many different ways they don't even know or could even think of. Well, Since you are filled with such strong opinions and accusations, why don't you educate the less-experienced among us and list how pool players get jerked around or are subject to favoritism. And quite frankly, if someone does not want to be filmed, don't play in tournaments! It's 2011, and we are in a whole new world, sorry to inform you. Do you really think road agents can sneak into some town as an unknown and rob the locals? How long will that last? All it takes is one guy with a cellphone and he is knocked for life. The Art of the Hustle is dying, sorry to inform you.

There's more business done at a tournaments akin to a legal form of dumping(all the players money into whoevers pocket suits them). Are TD's really that important? How the hell hard is it too write names on a chart or make a call. It isn't hard...but it is time-consuming, and you do have to deal with the whining/complaining and general bad attitudes of most pool players along the way.Ask Gay Heffer..talk about your opaque business model . .and behind the scenes business. Him and the wincard getting run out of Reno. If you're referring to Jay Helfert, and calling him Gay Heffer, that pretty much says a lot about you right there.Cons are running the show from the top to the bottom. In your un-biased opinion, I'm sure.The average pool player just thinks of bragging rights instead of money. Entertainment baby!
No need for replies..just think about it in your spare time. My posts are strictly for entertainment value without all the business attached unlike tournaments ..
Canwin

Sorry, not entertained, but disappointed that you hold TDs and organizers in such low regard. Perhaps you had bad dealings in the past, sorry about your experiences if that is indeed the case.

Feel free to reply. My posts are hopefully for informational value, without all the inaccurate generalizations attached.

 

[inside_english]

I can see both sides of this issue and I wrestled with this very topic myself. I agree with DG Hustles that everyone likes transparency...including me. However, I can tell you from personal experience that transparency can sometimes be detrimental to our sport because of a few bad apples. For some strange reason, many pool players believe that neither the pool room nor the TD should profit one dime and ALL proceeds should go to the players.

I read a thread once where a TD announced a $100 entry fee tournament, no money added, with a max of 64 players. When the payouts were added up, it totaled $6,000. In this case, the TD was retaining $400 while the room was allowing uninhibited access to the pool tables all weekend in exchange for the "hope" of increased food and beverage sales. Numerous players quickly did the math and jumped on the forum to criticize the TD. They actually expected the TD to travel to the room, pay for a hotel, provide all of the many necessities that a tournament requires, and spend all weekend running it...for nothing. Then, rather than purchasing food and beverage at the room, they wait for a break in the action and go down the street to McDonalds just to save a couple of bucks. Many players actually demand this non-compensation from pool rooms and TDs and will quickly spread their logic (or non-logic in my opinion) to thousands of people instantly over the web. With these unrealistic expectations and demands, in the end, there will be no tournaments...and we all lose.

Believe me when I say that there is nothing lucrative about running pool tournaments! However, in order to prevent chaos started by people who don't have a clue about the various expenses of running a tournament (especially if you are streaming), I believe it is sometimes best to keep that information proprietary and let the history of payouts from a TD speak for itself. No matter what the circumstances, some people will use whatever information you provide to try and bring you down. Just a perspective that I thought I would share.

Ozzy,
I think this decision to keep the handling of the funds hidden from the players has its good and bad points.

When I ran a few tournaments in the past, I kept everything totally transparent. One of the players chose to question my payouts at three of the events.

I was not happy about this so I sent an email (and a forum post) outlining the prize funds and payouts for each event I ran, even though I had explained this to him in detail at the events anyway. Some people are just born to be difficult, I suppose. But I got my hackles up, because if there is one thing that will tick me off is having my integrity or character questioned.

So, for my events I do broadcast how much is being paid out and how much is going to greens. most players don't seem to care, and the ones that do are usually hard-asses,whiners, or just broke pool players who want the most out of an event.

There is nothing wrong with questioning payouts and money-handling...but there ARE ways to speak to people, and to address an issue, albeit a sensitive one.

Pulling the TD to the side and politely asking the question as opposed to walking around the room whining to anyone who would listen is NOT the way to go.

I played at an event recently where one of the "helpers" actually encouraged one the players to complain about the payouts! Talk about underhanded and petty!

Anyway, I could yak forever, let me go back to my $13.75/hour job (before taxes, no money for greens, lol).

 

[ridewiththewind]

The local tournaments in this area are really good about listing the entry and green fees separately. This is as it should be, IMHO. Tournaments need to be as transparent as possible with all monies involved.

Lisa