Questions on Diamond "Pro Cut " Tables

[mikemosconi]

I have been playing solo once or twice a week for the past few months on a Diamond table. It is a 9 foot Diamond, and they were installed about 2 years ago in a very small room (3) inside a bowling alley- no one working there knows anything about pool tables. They were installed as new- so, blue labels. To me, a decent player, the table seems very difficult to handle. First question, the pockets measure exactly 4 1/2 inches, nose to nose, but I cannot even come close to getting 2 balls to fit together inside the pocket opening- I had always considered 4 1/2 inch pockets to be where the two balls together fit snugly inside the pocket opening , sitting on the inside pocket slate, with the edges of both balls just touching the pocket facings- no room to spare. I distinctly recall Brunswick GC standard pockets would allow two balls to fit together and sit on the slate inside the pocket with about a 1/4 inch or more room from the edge of one ball to the pocket facing- 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets.

So my question number 1 here is this, where the nose to nose pocket measurement is exactly 4 1/2 inches, but two balls together do not fit inside the pocket opening on the slate, are these standard Diamond blue label pro cut pockets, or are they actually smaller than Diamond pro cut pocket openings?

Question number 2 - Do Diamond Blue labels bank shorter than a Brunswick GC, or an Olhausen- these Diamonds sure seem to bank shorter - they are not old red
labels.

Question number 3- Speed off the rails just seems much faster than a Brunswick or Olhausen, could anyone who considers themselves an excellent CB control artist on Diamond Blue Labels comment on stroking methodology to deal with Diamond rail speed - sometimes I feel like I am playing on a sheet of glass and not a pool table as I know it

Thanks!

 

[Lawnboy77]

Here is a pic of one of my pro-cut CP’s to compare (4.5 CP). I think you might be trying to get them to sit deeper in the pocket and with 4.5 inch pockets they shouldn’t.

I have 2 sets of rails, one with Artemis and one with Superspeed cushions on professionally redone rails for my Anni and they play very close in speed and overall performance. There are so many other variables though, like type of cloth, stretch of cloth, rail bolts per rail, ball cleanliness, rail cushion nose contact area (dirty there and balls will be faster and tend to hop).

I suspect the difference that you are noticing is just the Diamond is probably set up right compared to the GC’s that you are used to.


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[Black-Balled]

All sounds oem to me.

 

[Korsakoff]

{Snip} I had always considered 4 1/2 inch pockets to be where the two balls together fit snugly inside the pocket opening , sitting on the inside pocket slate, with the edges of both balls just touching the pocket facings- no room to spare. I distinctly recall Brunswick GC standard pockets would allow two balls to fit together and sit on the slate inside the pocket with about a 1/4 inch or more room from the edge of one ball to the pocket facing- 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets. {Snip}

I think the picture in post #2 shows the standard 4.5" pro-cut pocket on a Diamond. Below is a picture of a standard 4.75" league-cut pocket on a Diamond. Your memory of the old Gold Crowns match my memory: both balls fit with a a bit of room on either side. Played lots of "cheat the pocket" shots back then.

Regarding banking, I feel like I banked pretty decent on Gold Crowns. After a thousand or so long-rail banks on my Diamond, I am almost to the point when I can just "shoot a bank based upon feel". I still have a ways to go for long-rail banks. Forget multi-rail banks; I ain't there yet.

Speed? My layoff was so long I could not really remember nuances in speed. I'm definitely working on speed in a variety of situations now. I should be back in stroke a couple weeks after I pass from this Earth.

 

[Juan A]

This sounds like my 7 ft table with 4 1/2" pro cut pockets.

 

[mikemosconi]

Here is a pic of one of my pro-cut CP’s to compare (4.5 CP). I think you might be trying to get them to sit deeper in the pocket and with 4.5 inch pockets they shouldn’t.

I have 2 stets of rails, one with Artemis and one with Superspeed cushions on professionally redone rails for my Anni and they play very close in speed and overall performance. There are so many other variables though, like type of cloth, stretch of cloth, rail bolts per rail, ball cleanliness, rail cushion nose contact area (dirty there amd balls will be faster and tend to hop).

I suspect the difference that you are noticing is just the Diamond is probably set up right compared to the GC’s that you are used to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, answered my question- I am playing then, on Diamond pro cuts at 4 1/2 inch- looks exactly like your photo when I try to place 2 balls in the pocket

 

[mikemosconi]

I think the picture in post #2 shows the standard 4.5" pro-cut pocket on a Diamond. Below is a picture of a standard 4.75" league-cut pocket on a Diamond. Your memory of the old Gold Crowns match my memory: both balls fit with a a bit of room on either side. Played lots of "cheat the pocket" shots back then.

Regarding banking, I feel like I banked pretty decent on Gold Crowns. After a thousand or so long-rail banks on my Diamond, I am almost to the point when I can just "shoot a bank based upon feel". I still have a ways to go for long-rail banks. Forget multi-rail banks; I ain't there yet.

Speed? My layoff was so long I could not really remember nuances in speed. I'm definitely working on speed in a variety of situations now. I should be back in stroke a couple weeks after I pass from this Earth.

View attachment 709072

Yes, this is what I expected on 4 1/2 inch pockets- but as you show- this is what you get on Diamond 4 3/4 inch league cuts!

 

[iusedtoberich]

You hit the nail on the head. Diamond tables, even the brand new ones, are short as hell and fast as hell. Sometimes they bounce about the same as a GC (and EVERY other table ever made, even junk home model tables). Sometimes they play like you describe. And unless players have played on both scenerios, they will defend the play of the Diamond till the end and think the people who say they play wrong are nuts. And its nothing to do with the setup. They are this way brand new from the factory, with factory installed cloth on both the bed and the rails.

 

[kling&allen]

I have been playing solo once or twice a week for the past few months on a Diamond table. It is a 9 foot Diamond, and they were installed about 2 years ago in a very small room (3) inside a bowling alley- no one working there knows anything about pool tables. They were installed as new- so, blue labels. To me, a decent player, the table seems very difficult to handle. First question, the pockets measure exactly 4 1/2 inches, nose to nose, but I cannot even come close to getting 2 balls to fit together inside the pocket opening- I had always considered 4 1/2 inch pockets to be where the two balls together fit snugly inside the pocket opening , sitting on the inside pocket slate, with the edges of both balls just touching the pocket facings- no room to spare. I distinctly recall Brunswick GC standard pockets would allow two balls to fit together and sit on the slate inside the pocket with about a 1/4 inch or more room from the edge of one ball to the pocket facing- 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets.

So my question number 1 here is this, where the nose to nose pocket measurement is exactly 4 1/2 inches, but two balls together do not fit inside the pocket opening on the slate, are these standard Diamond blue label pro cut pockets, or are they actually smaller than Diamond pro cut pocket openings?

Question number 2 - Do Diamond Blue labels bank shorter than a Brunswick GC, or an Olhausen- these Diamonds sure seem to bank shorter - they are not old red
labels.

Question number 3- Speed off the rails just seems much faster than a Brunswick or Olhausen, could anyone who considers themselves an excellent CB control artist on Diamond Blue Labels comment on stroking methodology to deal with Diamond rail speed - sometimes I feel like I am playing on a sheet of glass and not a pool table as I know it

Thanks!

That’s all accurate based on my experience. Here is a video from Dr Dave on banking on Diamond tables:

Diamond Tables Banking Short - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Why do balls bank short on Diamond brand tables? As demonstrated in the video below (and in TP B.28), many Diamond brand tables kick and bank much shorter than other brands under similar conditions, especially 9’ Red Label and 7’ bar-box Diamond tables. The cushions on Diamond tables also...

billiards.colostate.edu

 

[trob]

I measured mine tip to tip and they are 4 1/4.. that’s the way it came from the factory.no special order

 

[atlas333]

Here are my GC corner pockets after Trent extended the rails. After the first week I thought theses are too tight and Trent was annoyed that I was not loving his terrific work. But now a couple years later I'm happy with the tough pockets BUT the side pockets still have me a bit gun-shy.

 

[jtompilot]

Here are my GC corner pockets after Trent extended the rails. After the first week I thought theses are too tight and Trent was annoyed that I was not loving his terrific work. But now a couple years later I'm happy with the tough pockets BUT the side pockets still have me a bit gun-shy.

Heck, those are only 4 1/2”. Good all round size.
There’s a bunch of rooms around the country that have 3 3/4” I’ve pretty much settled on 4 1/4 for the ideal size for me.

 

[Black-Balled]

Here are my GC corner pockets after Trent extended the rails. After the first week I thought theses are too tight and Trent was annoyed that I was not loving his terrific work. But now a couple years later I'm happy with the tough pockets BUT the side pockets still have me a bit gun-shy.

I've gotten to play on a few gold crowns that were redone the right way by real mechanics, and they were all glorious.

 

[Lawnboy77]

I've gotten to play on a few gold crowns that were redone the right way by real mechanics, and they were all glorious.

Exactly! Folks are not comparing apples to apples. I get the feeling most are comparing 50 year old tables (GC) that have been marginally maintained to new Diamonds that are typically installed properly.

 

[Hercus]

Can someone with a 4.5” pro cut set of pocket corners tell me the width of the “throat” at a distance 2” in from the rail? I’m having a mechanic pad my Brunswick “standard” cut pockets which are currently 5” corners (5.5” side pockets). The entry angle of the corners are 145 degrees (compared to BCA specs of 142 degrees). If the mechanic brings the mouth down to 4.5” the throat will be too tight.

I need to figure out a compromise. Any advice appreciated.

 

[rexus31]

Can someone with a 4.5” pro cut set of pocket corners tell me the width of the “throat” at a distance 2” in from the rail? I’m having a mechanic pad my Brunswick “standard” cut pockets which are currently 5” corners (5.5” side pockets). The entry angle of the corners are 145 degrees (compared to BCA specs of 142 degrees). If the mechanic brings the mouth down to 4.5” the throat will be too tight.

I need to figure out a compromise. Any advice appreciated.

When you say "pad" what do you mean? If you are referring to stacking facings, you will not be happy with the way the table plays. 145° is waaaay too wide an angle. IMO, have extensions properly installed and the pockets cut to 142°.

 

[Hercus]

When you say "pad" what do you mean? If you are referring to stacking facings, you will not be happy with the way the table plays. 145° is waaaay too wide an angle. IMO, have extensions properly installed and the pockets cut to 142°.

I was afraid of that. I suspect the mechanic is only thinking of stacking facings.

I just bought this table and didn’t know before hand the difference between “standard” and “pro-cut” pockets. The league tables I’ve been playing on the past couple of years are definitely harder pockets to play than this table I have. The mechanic (who I bought it from) has offered to shim the pockets to make them tighter “however you want them”. But what do I know. He doesn’t seem to know either.

 

[boogieman]

I was afraid of that.

I just bought this table and didn’t know before hand the difference between “standard” and “pro-cut” pockets. The league tables I’ve been playing on the past couple of years are definitely harder pockets to play than this table I have. The mechanic (who I bought it from) has offered to shim the pockets to make them tighter “however you want them”. But what do I know. He doesn’t seem to know either.

This isn't the proper way, which is extending the subrails, but it made my Olhausen play much better: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/olhausen-rattle-is-this-a-good-fix.525094/

It takes some precision to get good results but it's not rocket science as long as you are a nit picker/meticulous. Your mechanic may or may not be able to do this.

Honestly extending subrails and doing it correctly is what you should be striving for. If you can't or wont for whatever reason this can work, but it still requires precise work.

This search term will get you into a rabbit hole of info. Good for studying and teaching yourself about what needs done. Also the term "subrail extension" will yield results. It's easiest to use google to search the forums: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:https://forums.azbilliards.com+diamondize

or https://www.google.com/search?q=site:https://forums.azbilliards.com+subrail+extension

 

[evolution03]

Yes the ball comes off the rail way to fast and banks short even worse on a red label

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes the ball comes off the rail way to fast and banks short even worse on a red label

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