Quitting winner

Here's how I see it. You should be playing longer races. Races to three are a crap shoot and favor the lesser skilled player. Somebody can luck three games in their favor a lot more easily than they can 7 games or 9 games.

So, if you're playing bangers, you shouldn't be racing to 3 to begin with. If YOU are the one setting that number, perhaps its because you're looking for a quick win. If that is the case, then next time you play, you should acknowledge that you are NOT a lock in that game and that your plan backfired on you. As a result, you kind of deserve what you get.

To avoid this in the future, make sure you factor in how many sets you plan to play PRIOR TO STARTING! Tell you opponent that you have to play a 4 or a 5 set minimum. Make sure he/she knows that they should give you a 1 set warning as to when they may quit (for example, when I start to tire, I let my opponents know I only have one more set left in me; we can double up there if we want).
 
easy answer

An easy answer to that, do as several people have told you and arrange to play a certain number of sets to begin with, then that becomes your first quitting point instead of after every set. Lock up another group of sets and go again. You are wanting to set up the conditions to your advantage because you know you are weak in the first set. That isn't wrong, no more than the other people seeking advantage but you have to set the conditions you want before hand, not assume you will get your way as the evening evolves.

All of this "old school" honor BS is a myth. For every guy that wanted to battle it out as fairly as possible, there were at least a half-dozen out to grab the cheese any way they could. In reality the only thing that has changed is our perception. I heard the same bellyaching about "today's players" thirty-five years ago that I hear today. Thirty-five years from now 2007 will be the good old days and most everybody will be insisting that it was far better back then.

Hu




Drew said:
Trust me, neither one of these guys make a living gambling.

I've seen and played roadies before, and I can't recall a single one of them quitting me or anyone I know when they win. In my experience the guys who make a living this way want you to keep playing. Why would they force you to stop?

It's different if the bar closes, or the game changes. And I don't put a football game in the same catagory. That game changes every week.

It's not that I can't afford to lose the money. If I couldn't, I wouldn't bet it. But I rarely only have one barrell to fire. I make a $20 bet with another $80 in my pocket. I very rarely win the first set. I won't find my stroke until somewhere in the second set. When you play me, you get a one set spot. It's frustrating when I lose money before I even start playing.
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pharaoh68 said:
Here's how I see it. You should be playing longer races. Races to three are a crap shoot and favor the lesser skilled player. Somebody can luck three games in their favor a lot more easily than they can 7 games or 9 games.

So, if you're playing bangers, you shouldn't be racing to 3 to begin with. If YOU are the one setting that number, perhaps its because you're looking for a quick win. If that is the case, then next time you play, you should acknowledge that you are NOT a lock in that game and that your plan backfired on you. As a result, you kind of deserve what you get.

To avoid this in the future, make sure you factor in how many sets you plan to play PRIOR TO STARTING! Tell you opponent that you have to play a 4 or a 5 set minimum. Make sure he/she knows that they should give you a 1 set warning as to when they may quit (for example, when I start to tire, I let my opponents know I only have one more set left in me; we can double up there if we want).
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I don't care that I lost a race to 3. I already know that it's a bad number. But in my eyes, it's just an alternative to 5 or 10 a game. I'd rather play sets to 3 for 20 all night than 10 a game all night. If someone asks me to play 20 a game, I expect more than one game. The same goes for a race to 3 for 20. Especially when he asks to play SOME sets for 20. I expect more than one set to be played. It's different if we bark for a month and end up with a race to 18 for 600. That's when we post a set amount. I believe the term is "freeze up."
 
ShootingArts said:
An easy answer to that, do as several people have told you and arrange to play a certain number of sets to begin with, then that becomes your first quitting point instead of after every set. Lock up another group of sets and go again. You are wanting to set up the conditions to your advantage because you know you are weak in the first set. That isn't wrong, no more than the other people seeking advantage but you have to set the conditions you want before hand, not assume you will get your way as the evening evolves.

All of this "old school" honor BS is a myth. For every guy that wanted to battle it out as fairly as possible, there were at least a half-dozen out to grab the cheese any way they could. In reality the only thing that has changed is our perception. I heard the same bellyaching about "today's players" thirty-five years ago that I hear today. Thirty-five years from now 2007 will be the good old days and most everybody will be insisting that it was far better back then.

Hu
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The "good old days" means nothing to me. I'm 20 years old. Nobody ever taught me how to gamble. Nobody sat me down and showed me the ropes. But for some reason I have a code of ethics when it comes to gambling. You pay up when the winner wants to be paid. You don't quit winner. You don't fire air. I take gambling very seriously. And although I don't make a living doing it, the money helps in some very specific ways.

I don't like to agree on a number of sets because then it puts a subliminal message in our heads. 4 sets and we're done. I guess from now on, I'll put "no quitting winner" in the terms.
 
I think that it is all circumstantial, case to case basis. But, I do believe that everything needs to be discussed prior to the match and also that races to 3 are to short. I believe that it is ok to quit winner if the person came to you looking for action, unless you agreed to play them multiple sets and you quit early. Basically, it all depends on what is discussed before the start of the match as to whether or not it is ok to quit winner...
 
Aren't there better ways to throw away cash? Like at the strip-joint, at least they shake it for you...
 
heh this topic will come back prolly once a month for the next million years.

What's your goal in wanting guaranteed multiple sets?
To guarantee big enough money changes hands instead of just a little money?

So that's easy... you agree to freeze up the amount you think is big enough, and just play one long set. Problem solved.

The bottom line is that if you're playing someone who isn't comfortable with losing the 'magic number' you want/expect... that person will not play you for it.

You can't trick him into it. You can't lock him into it by agreeing beforehand. You can't guarantee it by wishful old-school gambler thinking. You can't guilt trip him into it by calling him a nit. If he's determined to keep half of what's in his wallet, you simply cannot have all the money from that player. And it's up to you to KNOW this fact, or to ask him, or find out some other way... before you play.

It's funny how all these whiny threads start out with "I lost a set or two and.." they never start "I whipped the guy and..."
 
Drew said:
To me, it's perfectly fine to knock bad action. Pretend you play a guy for 20/game. It's a guy you know you can easily beat. He knows it too. But on this occasion he feels like donating so he asks you to play. He wins the flip, snaps the 9, and walks off. You can't honestly tell me you'd be happy about that. Hell, if someone did that to me, they'd be lucky to even get paid.[/QUOTE]

So you wouldn't own up to the bet? Sounds like YOU might be bad action.

:D

Cheers,
RC
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crawfish said:
We wouldn't even be having this discussion twenty years ago. You'd get your azz beat for quitting ahead. But, stipulate ALL variables BEFORE you begin, these days. Or... expect the worst. Most people would rather pickpocket you than beat you out of anything, today. It takes less time. Nothing to do with pool, just the cash.
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I used to quit winner all the time 20 years ago and I never got my 'azz beat.' When else are you gonna quit? In fact, I had many, many top players quit ahead of me while they had no problem telling me I "couldn't quit while I was ahead" when the tables were reversed. It is a ploy. It is a tool gamblers use to ensure YOU won't win. If you buy into it, then you've been had.

'Not quitting winner' is one of those rules designed to keep people losers. It was propogated by people who had all night to gamble, had their entire fortune in their pocket, and didn't have to be at work the next day. It makes it impossible for a working stiff to outlast a player.

Why gamble if, when you get ahead, you have to wait for some loser to let you decide when you're done? They'll make you stay out all night until you give up and let them get back to even, then they'll want you to split table time. F*** that! You'll be tired at work the next day, and for what? To abide by some arbitrary 'law of the jungle.'

To be fair though, I think if you plan on not staying out all night, you should tell the person you're gambling with up front.

I even had one road player tell me "This isn't poker, I can quit whenever the f*** I want to."

Cheers,
RC
 
CreeDo said:
heh this topic will come back prolly once a month for the next million years.

What's your goal in wanting guaranteed multiple sets?
To guarantee big enough money changes hands instead of just a little money?

So that's easy... you agree to freeze up the amount you think is big enough, and just play one long set. Problem solved.

The bottom line is that if you're playing someone who isn't comfortable with losing the 'magic number' you want/expect... that person will not play you for it.

You can't trick him into it. You can't lock him into it by agreeing beforehand. You can't guarantee it by wishful old-school gambler thinking. You can't guilt trip him into it by calling him a nit. If he's determined to keep half of what's in his wallet, you simply cannot have all the money from that player. And it's up to you to KNOW this fact, or to ask him, or find out some other way... before you play.

It's funny how all these whiny threads start out with "I lost a set or two and.." they never start "I whipped the guy and..."
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You won't ever hear me say "I whipped the guy and...then quit." If I say "I lost a set...then quit." No problem there. I admit he's the better player. I asked for a spot, he refused, I quit. That's not a problem. I took that risk. If I beat Efren out of any money, he gets a second, third, fourth chance. I won't take the money and run. I don't care if I got lucky the first set. When you play me, you always have a chance to get it back. It's not about "old school gambler thinking." To me, it's about respect. It's about having the courage to step up and play again with the money you just won. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away. If you're tired and want to continue the next day, that's fine with me. I'm not a hustler. I don't use tricks. I play pool for money.
 
sixpack said:
I used to quit winner all the time 20 years ago and I never got my 'azz beat.' When else are you gonna quit? In fact, I had many, many top players quit ahead of me while they had no problem telling me I "couldn't quit while I was ahead" when the tables were reversed. It is a ploy. It is a tool gamblers use to ensure YOU won't win. If you buy into it, then you've been had.

'Not quitting winner' is one of those rules designed to keep people losers. It was propogated by people who had all night to gamble, had their entire fortune in their pocket, and didn't have to be at work the next day. It makes it impossible for a working stiff to outlast a player.

Why gamble if, when you get ahead, you have to wait for some loser to let you decide when you're done? They'll make you stay out all night until you give up and let them get back to even, then they'll want you to split table time. F*** that! You'll be tired at work the next day, and for what? To abide by some arbitrary 'law of the jungle.'

To be fair though, I think if you plan on not staying out all night, you should tell the person you're gambling with up front.

I even had one road player tell me "This isn't poker, I can quit whenever the f*** I want to."

Cheers,
RC
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You know what I am talking about when I said "get your azz beat." Putting the move on someone. Winning the first three games for twenty on the barbox and just deciding to leave when the other guy was ready to continue. That sort of thing. And, if you have never quit after the first set on someone and they didn't pitch a fit, then maybe we're not talking about the same kind of action. I work fifty hours a week, now. So it is hard for me to get into real action. I always try to stipulate time, number of sets, or an ahead set, etc. Twenty years ago, I just played until he quit or ran out of cash. Or me.
 
Drew said:
You won't ever hear me say "I whipped the guy and...then quit." If I say "I lost a set...then quit." No problem there. I admit he's the better player. I asked for a spot, he refused, I quit. That's not a problem. I took that risk. If I beat Efren out of any money, he gets a second, third, fourth chance. I won't take the money and run. I don't care if I got lucky the first set. When you play me, you always have a chance to get it back. It's not about "old school gambler thinking." To me, it's about respect. It's about having the courage to step up and play again with the money you just won. Hell, it doesn't even have to be right away. If you're tired and want to continue the next day, that's fine with me. I'm not a hustler. I don't use tricks. I play pool for money.
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Rep to you. Similar to my beliefs.
 
sixpack said:
I used to quit winner all the time 20 years ago and I never got my 'azz beat.' When else are you gonna quit? In fact, I had many, many top players quit ahead of me while they had no problem telling me I "couldn't quit while I was ahead" when the tables were reversed. It is a ploy. It is a tool gamblers use to ensure YOU won't win. If you buy into it, then you've been had.

'Not quitting winner' is one of those rules designed to keep people losers. It was propogated by people who had all night to gamble, had their entire fortune in their pocket, and didn't have to be at work the next day. It makes it impossible for a working stiff to outlast a player.

Why gamble if, when you get ahead, you have to wait for some loser to let you decide when you're done? They'll make you stay out all night until you give up and let them get back to even, then they'll want you to split table time. F*** that! You'll be tired at work the next day, and for what? To abide by some arbitrary 'law of the jungle.'

To be fair though, I think if you plan on not staying out all night, you should tell the person you're gambling with up front.

I even had one road player tell me "This isn't poker, I can quit whenever the f*** I want to."

Cheers,
RC
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So what's your explanation on all those nights I've come out winner? When you're in a game you can't win, you don't go back to even. You just keep digging your hole.

Like I said before, there's no problem when you say you can only play 2 more sets. There's no problem when you have an appointment at 6 and you have to leave. Just let me know. I possess a fair amount of empathy. When you tell me you can play 1 more, I won't piss and moan about it. The most you might hear out of me is a request to raise the stakes. But other than that, you get an "alright."
 
deadwhak said:
ok ok drew...u got me...ill play u some and i wont quit IF i get winner...
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Lol, you got it buddy. I've always said that I'll play anyone in the world. Whether or not I'll lose a lot, is a different story.

I won't quit you winner either.
 
crawfish said:
You know what I am talking about when I said "get your azz beat." Putting the move on someone. Winning the first three games for twenty on the barbox and just deciding to leave when the other guy was ready to continue. That sort of thing. And, if you have never quit after the first set on someone and they didn't pitch a fit, then maybe we're not talking about the same kind of action. I work fifty hours a week, now. So it is hard for me to get into real action. I always try to stipulate time, number of sets, or an ahead set, etc. Twenty years ago, I just played until he quit or ran out of cash. Or me.
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You are correct. I never got into a scuffle about it because I didn't do the things that the OP is complaining about. I would let someone know if I had to leave after a set or two up front. I would not ever just get lucky on one game and then quit.

I just get ticked about this whole 'can't quit winner' thing and picked your post to go off on. Sorry about that.

Now that I work a lot and can't play all night, I have found myself bamboozled into letting someone get even so I could quit and it makes me angry at myself and angry at them, but the truth is I did it because I didn't want to gut out a tough situation like I used to. I guess age will do that to you.

One time a guy did get upset with me was pretty funny. He was a AAA player in Denver and I was a B (probably a little underrated ;) )

He thought I didn't recognize him and asked me to play at a bar, I told him we should play a race to 3 instead of just by the game....he looked like the fox who had just been given the keys to the hen house...even when I told him I would have to leave after one set. He won the coin toss and B&R first two games before coming up dry. I ran out the set and, true to my word, quit. He was pissed and tried to bamboozle me, but after all, I had told him only 1 set. He said he didn't have a chance to win his money back and I told him he needed to work on his break. We laughed about it later, but that night he didn't think it was very funny.


Cheers,
RC
 
Drew said:
So what's your explanation on all those nights I've come out winner? When you're in a game you can't win, you don't go back to even. You just keep digging your hole.

Like I said before, there's no problem when you say you can only play 2 more sets. There's no problem when you have an appointment at 6 and you have to leave. Just let me know. I possess a fair amount of empathy. When you tell me you can play 1 more, I won't piss and moan about it. The most you might hear out of me is a request to raise the stakes. But other than that, you get an "alright."
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Drew, you're right, after re-reading your posts, I don't think we're really that far apart on this. Of course people quit when they figure out they can't win. What you're complaining about is when they figure out they can't beat you, but they're up at the moment through a fluke or the vagaries of the pool gods. That chaps me too, but the only one I can blame is myself for not taking advantage of the chances I had, or if I didn't have any chances, the hands of fate.

My coach/backer used to tell me that anybody could quit at any time and if you didn't win the first set, but you were the better player, they would probably quit, so you had to get out of the gate strong. Maybe if you bear down more the first set, instead of using it to settle in, this will not be a problem for you anymore.

Cheers,
RC
 
I enjoy reading threads like this. One reason I don't like to gamble is because a lot of people go psycho when they lose.

Example: A guys gets cleaned out playing $10 a game 9 ball, then complains to the whole pool room that the other guy was cheating because "He was cheesing in the 9 ball and everybody knows you don't do that in a friendly match".

I was playing somebody once who was bugging me to gamble, I didn't want to but finally I agreed to play a set, loser puts 5 bucks in the juke box. I won, which wasn't a surprise, and the other person was all bent out of shape about it.

Truth is, the reason people don't establish the rules ahead of time is because they want it to be open ended so they can possibly clean the other person out. If you don't want to establish the rules ahead of time don't whine when you lose your money and the other person doesn't know about your secret rules.

This is a great study in human nature.
 
Drew said:
I don't care that I lost a race to 3. I already know that it's a bad number. But in my eyes, it's just an alternative to 5 or 10 a game. I'd rather play sets to 3 for 20 all night than 10 a game all night. If someone asks me to play 20 a game, I expect more than one game. The same goes for a race to 3 for 20. Especially when he asks to play SOME sets for 20. I expect more than one set to be played. It's different if we bark for a month and end up with a race to 18 for 600. That's when we post a set amount. I believe the term is "freeze up."
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Here is the primary problem. You EXPECT too much. You have to understand, though we all wish it weren't true, for some reason pool is a game that has long since attracted some people that are considered "less than honorable". And when gambling on pool, you have to know that you just increased your odds of running into this kind of person.

Now, as far as "freezing up", it doesn't apply solely to long races for big money. It applies to anything. In a race to 3 format, you should freeze up the number of sets you play so that someone can't just win a quick to or three and walk out with the cash.

But as for blaming someone for displaying poor pool etiquette, well, think about it for a minute. For every gentleman out there looking for a gentleman's game, there's at least a half dozen nits/lock artists out there looking for a quick buck.
 
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