Rack Your Own - 14.1 - What to do here ?

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Hey All,

I am not a fan of this, but I do get the Pro's and Con's of it.

What do you do if players are playing Rack Your Own 14.1 and the guy racking for himself is either Racking Too High or Too Low, or is angling the rack a bit to give himself a better opportunity of a better break ?

I would think this would fall under a Unsportsmanlike Conduct Foul, or possible loss of match or dis-qualification.

The other side of this, what to do in same situation if its opponent racking bad in the same way for his/her opponent.

What do you guys think ?
Steve
 

Kevin Lindstrom

14.1 Addict
Silver Member
As league operator why don't you confront the culprits and ask them whats the deal?

Based on their answer you can then decide if you still want them as part of your league.

I am always suspicious and disgusted by people who knowingly want to cheat in any way shape or form in any activity or sport.

Kevin
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
As league operator why don't you confront the culprits and ask them whats the deal?

Based on their answer you can then decide if you still want them as part of your league.

I am always suspicious and disgusted by people who knowingly want to cheat in any way shape or form in any activity or sport.

Kevin

Hey Kev,

This did not happen in my league, but it came up in conversation with a few league players. Thought I should come up with a solution if it ever happens though !!

Thx for your input
Steve
 

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's one solution, but it assumes that you have the authority to (temporarily) mark up the table. Many house men frown on this because some dipstick may not do it properly and permanently mark up the table.

Before a match, trace the rack with a water soluble chalk marking pencil. These come in a variety of types and are available at Amazon or from local sewing stores like JoAnn Fabrics. Here's an example:

https://amazon.com/Water-Soluble-Marking-Pencils-Silver/dp/B002NHGKK2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2HHS95DP1IVU&keywords=cloth+marking+pencil&qid=1563294545&s=gateway&sprefix=cloth+marking+%2Caps%2C279&sr=8-1

After the match, you can erase all traces of the marking by wiping with a damp cloth. At the room where I play, we leave the markings on the table - with management's approval - and the 14.1 league players actually seek out the tables that have been marked.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Here's one solution, but it assumes that you have the authority to (temporarily) mark up the table. Many house men frown on this because some dipstick may not do it properly and permanently mark up the table.

Before a match, trace the rack with a water soluble chalk marking pencil. These come in a variety of types and are available at Amazon or from local sewing stores like JoAnn Fabrics. Here's an example:

https://amazon.com/Water-Soluble-Marking-Pencils-Silver/dp/B002NHGKK2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2HHS95DP1IVU&keywords=cloth+marking+pencil&qid=1563294545&s=gateway&sprefix=cloth+marking+%2Caps%2C279&sr=8-1

After the match, you can erase all traces of the marking by wiping with a damp cloth. At the room where I play, we leave the markings on the table - with management's approval - and the 14.1 league players actually seek out the tables that have been marked.

I carry one of these in my case. The room I play in has the outlines for inside and outside lines to be exact with the placement !!
 

vinay

Registered
What do you do if players are playing Rack Your Own 14.1 and the guy racking for himself is either Racking Too High or Too Low, or is angling the rack a bit to give himself a better opportunity of a better break ?

It took me a while to realize that the video was in your signature not part of the post. I was like... the racks look fine, what's he complaining about?
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I think that, philosophically, this must be dealt with as it would be in nine ball. Even in rack your own, opponent may inspect and reject the rack you give yourself and may even call a referee over if they feel something is amiss. In an extreme situation, the referee may be asked to rack the balls.

I really don't see how this could be viewed as an unsportsmanlike foul carrying the mandatory 15 point penalty, although persistent offenders might be warned and, ultimately, disciplined according to league rules.

Interesting question. I've certainly seen players rack low when they weren't sure they could catch the corner ball once or twice.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
A line needs to be drawn around the triangle and the triangle must be placed to match. I hope this is obvious.

There are some poorly informed people who think the sticker that is sometimes placed over the foot spot is the spot and anywhere on it is good enough. They're wrong. The foot spot is a single point, not an area. I think the rule book says nothing about the protective sticker needed for nine ball and eight ball.

The rack needs to be in the right place and as tight as possible.

The only possible exception I can think of is what nine ball players sometimes do by mutual consent: on old cloth they rack a little forward of the spot because otherwise the one ball will roll up into the crater and they don't have the time or equipment or permission to fix the table.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
“Rack your own”, is as silly a concept as ‘acting as your own referee’. But, since that is the direction the game is apparently taking, much as you should traditionally not challenge a referee’s decision (or check how he racks), likely you should not question the honor of your opponent if he is acting as such. Of course, if you think he consistently mis-racks in his own favor, you alway have the option to do likewise, assuming your own sense of honor allows.
 
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Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A line needs to be drawn around the triangle and the triangle must be placed to match. I hope this is obvious.

There are some poorly informed people who think the sticker that is sometimes placed over the foot spot is the spot and anywhere on it is good enough. They're wrong. The foot spot is a single point, not an area. I think the rule book says nothing about the protective sticker needed for nine ball and eight ball.

The rack needs to be in the right place and as tight as possible.

The only possible exception I can think of is what nine ball players sometimes do by mutual consent: on old cloth they rack a little forward of the spot because otherwise the one ball will roll up into the crater and they don't have the time or equipment or permission to fix the table.

Bob — What “equipment” would be used to fix the craters or divots that develop over time as a result of racking the 14 balls over and over again? I can think of only one thing that helps, at least temporarily: brushing the rack area.

Separate question: any suggestions as to how to prevent the craters from forming in the first place? Again I can think of only one thing: purposefully racking in a slightly different place each time (in practice, not match play).
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob — What “equipment” would be used to fix the craters or divots that develop over time as a result of racking the 14 balls over and over again? I can think of only one thing that helps, at least temporarily: brushing the rack area.

Separate question: any suggestions as to how to prevent the craters from forming in the first place? Again I can think of only one thing: purposefully racking in a slightly different place each time (in practice, not match play).
As for fixing the spot crater, Mr. Stone, my boss at the rec center, would use lint and Elmer's glue to fill the hole and then put a new sticker on. Maybe the table mechanics have a better way.

You could try what the Europeans sometimes do: tap/train the table. That's joining them rather than fighting them. Stan Shuffett does something similar, I believe, with clear donuts. I believe there was a product sold that was 9 or 15 donuts on a backing sheet that you could press onto the table all at once. Doing it one at a time is bothersome.

If there are only one or two balls that move after racking, you can try brushing and tapping just those positions.

Actually, in Europe it is now forbidden to play 14.1 on a tapped table (or the tapped end of a table) because the rack is too good and there are several dead shots you can play. Sound familiar? I have heard that they use standard triangles on the other end of the table if one end is tapped.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just occurred you could likely clamp a solid straight edge to a heavy wooden rack with ‘C’ clamps (thus trapping the balls in tightly), set it perfectly in place, and after laying a flat solid surface on top, then weight it down heavily (couple of anvils?) and leave it a few days. Might try it since racking the balls tight on my old cloth has lately become an exercise in frustration.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just occurred you could likely clamp a solid straight edge to a heavy wooden rack with ‘C’ clamps (thus trapping the balls in tightly), set it perfectly in place, and after laying a flat solid surface on top, then weight it down heavily (couple of anvils?) and leave it a few days. Might try it since racking the balls tight on my old cloth has lately become an exercise in frustration.
The way that tables are trained/tapped in Europe is they have a racking template but the round holes are slightly closer than a ball diameter. The template is set in place exactly and then one at a time the balls are placed and tapped. Having the holes slightly smaller than the balls ensures that the balls are leaning against each other slightly and therefor tight.

I don't know if they wet each spot before tapping but I believe the training procedure for the Sardo rack does. That seems to help form the dimple better.

An important point is that if you do tap the table, you still need a triangle marked to determine in/out or some balls that very close to the rack will be unplayable.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
The way that tables are trained/tapped in Europe is they have a racking template but the round holes are slightly closer than a ball diameter. The template is set in place exactly and then one at a time the balls are placed and tapped. Having the holes slightly smaller than the balls ensures that the balls are leaning against each other slightly and therefor tight.

I don't know if they wet each spot before tapping but I believe the training procedure for the Sardo rack does. That seems to help form the dimple better.

An important point is that if you do tap the table, you still need a triangle marked to determine in/out or some balls that very close to the rack will be unplayable.

Will tapping the table effect the path of a ball that slowly rolls across it ?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Will tapping the table effect the path of a ball that slowly rolls across it ?
If a ball is rolling slowly enough, any minor defect, including where someone has shot a power shot (white spot on the cloth) will have an effect on the roll of the ball. I think tapping has much less effect than you get from rolling across the sticker or over the crater at the spot due to the 8- and 9-ball players. If a ball is shot across the rack area hard enough to get to a pocket, I think you don't have to worry about the tapping.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The way that tables are trained/tapped in Europe is they have a racking template but the round holes are slightly closer than a ball diameter. The template is set in place exactly and then one at a time the balls are placed and tapped. Having the holes slightly smaller than the balls ensures that the balls are leaning against each other slightly and therefor tight.

Do you know if they tap all 15? Wouldn’t just tapping the outside balls with enough ‘lean’ (plus the head pair) be adequate to keep the inside pack tight? Also, is that type of ‘tapping template’ readily available to U.S. customers (likely cheaper than new cloth)?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Do you know if they tap all 15? Wouldn’t just tapping the outside balls with enough ‘lean’ (plus the head pair) be adequate to keep the inside pack tight? Also, is that type of ‘tapping template’ readily available to U.S. customers (likely cheaper than new cloth)?
I think templates are available to print on Dr. Dave's website. I made a set of them in a PDF that you could print out and punch but it was for nine ball. There were several spacings so you could work with worn balls.

The outside balls may be the only ones that require tapping, but that only saves the three internal balls. In Europe I believe they are also tapping for nine ball so only the nine position could be left untapped.
 

Danny Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
I refer

to there being no referee. the bar leagues own pool here in the states. Become a world class player - only to rack yer own rack as if to make it look like yer just practicing. It's a joke that I no longer find comical.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
https://forums.azbilliards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6440110I think templates are available to print on Dr. Dave's website. I made a set of them in a PDF that you could print out and punch but it was for nine ball. There were several spacings so you could work with worn balls.

The outside balls may be the only ones that require tapping, but that only saves the three internal balls. In Europe I believe they are also tapping for nine ball so only the nine position could be left untapped.
For those interested, the templates are available at the bottom of the page here:

how to get a tight rack

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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