Raking the balls - unsportsmanlike or not??

Never been offended by a raked ball in my life. Seems oversensitive to get peeved by it.
I love getting a free pass on shooting the last ball(s). I also love seeing my opponent get mad
and rake a bunch of balls because he's too impatient to stay in his chair.
Either one of those things makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Could someone do it as a move? I guess. Pool players like to see "moves" in every little thing.
Taking a piss, eating french fries, grabbing the chalk, playing on the phone.
"he denied me hitting 4 balls so I couldn't get warm!"
...it probably wasn't a move and you probably aren't going to get in stroke hitting a handful of balls.
Not shooting those few balls isn't a valid excuse for losing a set.
 
Offensive? I generally just say Thank you. What is wrong with a concession? I think we're getting too damned sensitive . WTF!? man up and play the next rack.

I agree. My favorite was a match between Nevel and Deuel a few years ago where Deuel frustrated Nevel with his soft break and Nevel started raking the balls with several balls left on the table.

I saw no indication Deuel was offended, probably overjoyed at having gotten Nevel upset.
 
Happened to our team at the BCAPL Nationals. The opponent raked all the balls into one side of the table. The ref called Un-sportsman like conduct and awarded the game to us. Soon after that the same guy was kicked out of the Tournament.

randyg
 
Unsportsman like for a number of reasons.

Here's a good scenario for you.
you're in a tournament, race to 5. It's the first match and you lost the lag. Your opponent runs 3 racks then 6 balls of the next rack and misses, he rakes the balls.

That leaves you with the break and a cold stroke and down 2 games, who do you think has the advantage at this point?
 
I don't see anything wrong in conceding by raking. I suppose I can understand it being against the rules in a tournament because it is technically written in the rules that disturbing the balls in any manner like that is unsportsmanlike conduct. Now, the issue could be resolved simply by making the penalty for this to be loss of rack. Yes you could verbally call it, but raking avoids any misunderstanding about what was said..."I didn't say 'That's good', you heard me wrong."

This has to be one of the best concessions I've ever seen. Keith is playing Earl in the final of the 1988 Ohio State Open. At the 3:35 mark, after winning the first rack Keith breaks dry and rakes the balls. :grin-square: Grass doesn't grow under either of these guy's feet. The match went hill-hill, race to 11, and was over in less than an hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHQw9T5uvyk
 
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In my mind raking the balls has implications far beyond a pool game. It goes right to the lack of respect so many more people have today.

But, with more than one generation of disrespect in many areas of life, unfortunately there is less opportunity for young people to be exposed to respect. It's just gonna get worse.
 
In my mind raking the balls has implications far beyond a pool game. It goes right to the lack of respect so many more people have today.

But, with more than one generation of disrespect in many areas of life, unfortunately there is less opportunity for young people to be exposed to respect. It's just gonna get worse.

What is disrespectful about it? Seems to me conceding is a sign of respect.

Not sure what makes concession by raking less respectful than verbally conceding. In a way it is more respectful because you are leaving no doubt as to your intention to concede. Sure, firing the balls around the table in anger would be bad sportsmanship. but simply laying your cue down and moving a few balls towards the rack area doesn't seem wrong to me.

In a sense, disturbing the balls should be the proper way to concede if you are essentially taking a loss of rack penalty by doing so. And it eliminates any arguments over what was verbally said.
 
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I do it as a shark move.

I do it on purpose on an out he should make and then the next time he might think I am going to do it and I wont.

For me its purely a shark move, I do it.

Ken

I think this is unsportsmanlike Ken_4fun, certainly not honorable by any means.

Unsportsman like for a number of reasons.

Here's a good scenario for you.
you're in a tournament, race to 5. It's the first match and you lost the lag. Your opponent runs 3 racks then 6 balls of the next rack and misses, he rakes the balls.

That leaves you with the break and a cold stroke and down 2 games, who do you think has the advantage at this point?

More support for the this being a "shark type move".

Heres how I see it, and as always this is just my opinion. The only time I think it should be acceptable is if it is the *LAST* deciding game for the set/match. I see it purely as a shark move. I always make the opponent shot every shot. In my opinion, the only time a concession should be acceptable or permitted is if it's a determining game of a match/set. The reason i think it's a shark move is due to the fact, if your opponent leaves you hooked without a shot, it's unlikely they'd rake.in that situation.
Conceding a hanging winning ball is not so much an offense/shark move, but conceding a 2 or more ball out is. It can be used as a mental tool as Ken_4fun stated. Of course these are just my opinions.
When several balls to a near full rack get raked, all I see is a 5 year old child acting out ridiculously. Who wants to be around that?

Dopc....flame on...

Edit: I started this reply and then got a phone call of which I had to leave pretty quick. I just sort of thrashed out typing what thoughts I could and this awful post was the result. I should have just left and not posted it at all. Live and learn.
 
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In the deciding Ryder Cup match between Nicklaus and Tony Jackelin, years ago, Nicklaus conceded the match and Cup winning putt. It was definitely outside the leather. That was considered one of the finest displays of sportsmanship in golf's history.

FWIW.

Actually, the US had already scored enough points to keep the cup and Nicklaus conceded a longish putt (about 20 feet) allowing Jacklin to earn a half or tie in his individual match against him. If he'd missed the putt, Nicklaus would have won that match but it mattered not in the overall. By doing so, he allowed his opponent to save face with a tie.

Unless it's the last game, raking the balls to me is a shark move as was stated by one poster. Just my opinion. You agreed to play the match, play the damned thing.

Brian in VA
 
Heres how I see it, and as always this is just my opinion. The only time I think it should be acceptable is if it is the *LAST* deciding game for the set/match. I see it purely as a shark move. I always make the opponent shot every shot. In my opinion, the only time a concession should be acceptable or permitted is if it's a determining game of a match/set. The reason i think it's a shark move is due to the fact, if your opponent leaves you hooked without a shot, it's unlikely they'd rake.in that situation.
Conceding a hanging winning ball is not so much an offense/shark move, but conceding a 2 or more ball out is. It can be used as a mental tool as Ken_4fun stated. Of course these are just my opinions.
When several balls to a near full rack get raked, all I see is a 5 year old child acting out ridiculously. Who wants to be around that?



Dopc....flame on...


In the two examples you quoted, there is no significance to raking the balls. Either scenario could have been accomplished by a verbal concession. So are you really against raking in particular or concessions in general?

I suppose it hinges on you considering it a move. In golf concessions are often given for similar reasons. For example, you don't want your opponent to gain confidence from making a putt to win a hole on a putt you figure he will make anyway or you give him a couple early then make him putt a short one later in the round. Everyone pretty much agrees golf is a game of honor and these are allowed. They just are considered a part of strategy in match play and not gamesmanship (like the intentional cough during a guy's swing or stroke, or stepping on the line of his putt). It makes no difference whether you pick up his ball and toss it to him or simply say "That's good" and let him pick it up.
 
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In the two examples you quoted, there is no significance to raking the balls. Either scenario could have been accomplished by a verbal concession. So are you really against raking in particular or concessions in general?
(snipped)
It makes no difference whether you pick up his ball and toss it to him or simply say "That's good" and let him pick it up.

I replied rather quickly as I was heading out the door so I didn't really give my reply full attention and re-evaluation prior to posting.My apologies for not making it a well thought out reply.

*opinion warning*

To answer your question highlighted in blue above, it depends. Again it goes back to intentions (or my interpretation of those intentions at that moment). This really is a not so much a yes or no answer question.

I see your point about gamesmanship and strategy regarding golf, and I agree that it somewhat applies to pool as well. I'm not against "it's good" on a mid set game winning hanger ball, nor do I see it as a "move". I think a concession is acceptable in that situation.

However, I am against raking a table of several/many balls where the outcome is yet to be determined (anything can and will happen from time to time). I see it a few different ways, its either a "move" or ones ability to not control their emotional outbursts. I also see it as an outright disrespect of both the opponent and the game. Nobody wants to be around or play against an opponent that is either mentally/emotionally unstable, or acts out like a child. It's just not enjoyable or worthy of my time and effort.....

Maybe it's that class and respect for ones self and others is a thing of the past. I don't see why the game can't be played respectfully of others. I judge ones class and character by not only how they win, but also by how they lose as well. Everybody wins, and everybody loses, so why the need to be rude or unsportsmanlike like in either situation. Be a man, shake hands and move on. If it bothers one that bad, improve ones self!

Speaking of "moves or sharking". In my opinion shows weakness, and ones lack of confidence and/or self respect. I see it as a cheat, which in turn only builds my confidence even more. When I get "moves" put on me, my reaction is back off the shot and go into super slow play mode. I let the "move" on me, be a tool to let the steam build up of the "mover". It's not always effective, but is more often than not in my experiences.

So by not answering your question directly, I gave the best reply I think I could.


Dopc.... feeling the heat...

EDIT: I'd also like to add, that my interpretation of raking is to wipe the table of many balls mid game in a fit of rage or as an outburst of emotion., not just pushing the winning ball in the hole as a concession. So I think thats where my diversion of the original topic originated. I really need to learn to re-read threads and make sure I fully understand the original post and the following replies prior to replying in the future. My apologies....
 
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What is disrespectful about it? Seems to me conceding is a sign of respect.

Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.
 
Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

So true. It wouldn't affect me one way or the other. More wins for me. It would do nothing but show me you are a Bitc*. Weather you use it as a "Shark" move (Lame).
Or a "strategic" move, or whatever. If it's your buddy and you get ball in hand on the 8, ok, lets move it along were paying by the hour.
 
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This explains why raking the balls

Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

Is disrespectful. And the point made that if you don't see it that way says a lot about our cultural degradation is spot on.
 
EDIT: I'd also like to add, that my interpretation of raking is to wipe the table of many balls mid game in a fit of rage or as an outburst of emotion., not just pushing the winning ball in the hole as a concession. So I think thats where my diversion of the original topic originated. I really need to learn to re-read threads and make sure I fully understand the original post and the following replies prior to replying in the future. My apologies....

I guess we see things pretty closely. I agree that as an outburst or done in anger it is unsportsmanlike, no question. But as a concession I see no problem in it. My interpretation of the OP was that it was about raking the balls as a concession because he never said anything about anger or other unsportsmanlike behavior.

Did you happen to see the video of Keith's concession I posted? I thought that was totally respectful of Earl and you could see that Strickland had no problem with it. Keith was just basically saying "Your too good to not get on that nine ball so game to you." He was bummed he didn't make the 9 on the snap but he didn't rake the balls in anger either. It wasn't like "G-damnit, I broke dry and hung the MFin' 9, son of a beeatch!"
 
Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

Well, if you say it is just an opinion, then why are you so critical of it to the point of being insulting?

My cue is nothing short of a beat up house cue. Are you suggesting that I've got the IQ of a rock and the manners to match? Bah. I joke, smile, talk and laugh when I play. If I feel that I have left a shot that my opponent couldn't miss without some sort of devine intervention, then I won't make them shoot it. Of course, if it is something official, I'll let the game play out. Gambling, I'll probably rake a duck unless it's the match ball.
 
I guess we see things pretty closely. I agree that as an outburst or done in anger it is unsportsmanlike, no question. But as a concession I see no problem in it. My interpretation of the OP was that it was about raking the balls as a concession because he never said anything about anger or other unsportsmanlike behavior.

Did you happen to see the video of Keith's concession I posted? I thought that was totally respectful of Earl and you could see that Strickland had no problem with it. Keith was just basically saying "Your too good to not get on that nine ball so game to you." He was bummed he didn't make the 9 on the snap but he didn't rake the balls in anger either. It wasn't like "G-damnit, I broke dry and hung the MFin' 9, son of a beeatch!"



I appreciate the fact we see eye to eye on the mid-game raking. The OPs post did make mention of his friends opponent being "mad" at the fact he raked which sparked the thread.

What wasn't mentioned was under what conditions, the when and the how the rake took place. Was it the middle of the game or on the last ball or after a foul etc, etc. I guess thats why I just assumed by rake he meant mid-game with many balls left to be played out.

I did in fact watch the McCready vs Strickland video, they looked so young and well in stroke, I would have loved to see that full match. Regarding the McCready concession, I didn't see it as a shark move exactly, but to be fair to the competition and other players in the field, I think it should be played out regardless. However thats just my opinion.

What I do find humorous is you used Mr. Strickland as an example pertaining to sharking. While I admire and have complete respect for his game, his achievements and abilities, I also see him as the king of shark moves in his later years as well. I have to admit, as a spectator watching the "Pearl" go on tilt is some of the most entertaining pool viewing, I sure would hate to be his competitor in that situation (well I'd hate to be his competitor in any situation honestly, he's a monster shooter). Just ask Jayson Shaw how he feels about it after the recent "Steinway Classic 2013" match with Mr. Strickland. hehe....

After several shark moves by the "Pearl" throughout the entire match, Shaw shows his displeasure after the handshake. Youtube link here . Should the link not take you to the right time in the video, just forawrd to the 29.00 minute mark.In addition, I also don't agree with Shaws reactions, but I understand his frustrations.

Again, I'm glad we were able to agree regarding the mid-game rake.

Dopc...
 
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