Red Shoes Qualifier

[Bob Jewett]

... How about Bob Jewett? Clearly a well educated man. ...

Or at least thoroughly. I think I took English 1A about four times. I was interested in learning how to draw my ball and ride the nine down in the Rec Center and not at all in studying the prose of Francis Bacon. My writing got a lot, lot better from writing about pool. Sometimes I even use semicolons correctly.

 

[Blackjack]

Or at least thoroughly. I think I took English 1A about four times. I was interested in learning how to draw my ball and ride the nine down in the Rec Center and not at all in studying the prose of Francis Bacon. My writing got a lot, lot better from writing about pool. Sometimes I even use semicolons correctly.

I'm completely aware of the fact that I am educated far beyond my level of intelligence.

 

[lfigueroa]

I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread but since it's going on anyway I'll say one thing more.

You're right about that Larry. I was pretty confident that my statement would be received as an attack on someone the masses felt was beyond reproach regardless of what he said.

Words don't lie. Their definitions are available and their use in context was clear. The only thing unclear and no more than pure speculation is that everyone was so sure he meant nothing by those words. I heard them clear as a bell.

He said more than one insulting thing, he voiced multiple insulting statements.

Food for thought ... as an example ... sit back a moment and consider this ....

There is currently a thread in the main forum asking who everyone thought the best commentator was. One person said they thought Jim Rempe was the best.

Now very honestly, think about and consider this... Pretend I never posted anything at all in this thread. In fact, pretend the entire thread did not exist.

How do you think my statement would have gone over in the main forum thread that asked about commentators, if I had replied to the fellow who voted for Jim Rempe by posting the following;

"Jim Rempe the best commentator? Why he is a part of what is holding pool back. We don't need a guy like him. The Arnold Schwarzenegger we need doesn't yet exist. Jim Rempe's grammar is terrible. Tell you the truth, I can't believe he even was able to graduate high school the way he talks. Best commentator? I don't think so."

Hmm? How do you think I'd have been received with those words? Do you think even just one person from the forum would feel I didn't mean anything by it?

What a bunch of horse$h!t.

Nick Varner graduated from Perdue, Steve Mizerak was a school teacher, I don't know what college he attended, but you don't become a teacher without an education. How about Bob Jewett? Clearly a well educated man. Pat Fleming, and on and on ...Argh, I'm starting to get all wound up again.

Regardless of how many of us attended college or how many didn't, stereotyping pool players by saying we are impoverished, lazy people who have to be talked down to was simply and clearly wrong. I'm no lemming, when someone insults me either personally or generally, I'm responding.

Foist off: we are not the masses. Labeling your critics makes you guilty of the same stereotyping aspersion you are casting.

Seconds: words (and, gasp, statistics) can and do lie and should always be carefully evaluated, in context, and due consideration applied to their source. So you may want to consider an audiogram for that ringing sound in your ears

Toid: as to making comments about Rempe, or anyone else for that matter, in another thread: yes, you’re right. If you made those comments there could very well be a big hoo ha. But if George Fels makes the same comment, maybe not so much ;-)

Wastly,: the comments were made about pro pool players -- not you, or me, or Bob, or Pat. That cuts your list of well-educated players down to two. And, while I am sure there are others, you know as well as we all do that the number of names you’re going to be able to finally come up with will always be tiny in contrast to the universe of pro players.

Lou Figueroa

 

[3andstop]

Firstly, he was talking about pool

The remarks were made relative to the question whats holding pool back from popularity. In case you hadn't noticed these world tournaments are full of "US" kind of players. The masses. Without us, the small handful of those in the money who eventually are able to quit their jobs and attempt a living at pool wouldn't even be in a situation to do that.

So pool relies on us all. WE ARE THE STUFF OF POOL.

Secondly, The statements were totally inaccurate, inappropriate and insulting REGARDLESS. I don't give a rat's ass who said them and when or where they were said.

In addition, on an aside, at the risk of attempting to find the forest through the trees, there are many of us, probably most of us who don't believe that reason for pools lack of success is even remotely accurate to begin with.

Thirdly, I understand you are defending your god even at the expense of being smacked in the face with the truth that these statements were in extremely poor taste and hurtful. I do not share your worship of that god and therefore have absolutely no issue with calling a spade a spade.

Lastly, like I said, I'm no Lemming, I'm not afraid to call anyone out who insults a group of people that I am a part of. With his words, he places himself on a holier than thou pedestal.

I can't believe there are not some who at least feel the slap they received by those comments and have the balls to speak out in defense of all pool players. Those with or without other jobs. Geez, your word semantics regarding who his comments were pointed at are pretty transparent.

I know he donated his time, but I'm pretty sure he loves to hear himself talk anyway. Man it pisses me off even more thinking someone who profits from game puts himself above it.

That's it. I'm done. All wound up again....

 

[lfigueroa]

Firstly, he was talking about pool

The remarks were made relative to the question whats holding pool back from popularity. In case you hadn't noticed these world tournaments are full of "US" kind of players. The masses. Without us, the small handful of those in the money who eventually are able to quit their jobs and attempt a living at pool wouldn't even be in a situation to do that.

So pool relies on us all. WE ARE THE STUFF OF POOL.

Secondly, The statements were totally inaccurate, inappropriate and insulting REGARDLESS. I don't give a rat's ass who said them and when or where they were said.

In addition, on an aside, at the risk of attempting to find the forest through the trees, there are many of us, probably most of us who don't believe that reason for pools lack of success is even remotely accurate to begin with.

Thirdly, I understand you are defending your god even at the expense of being smacked in the face with the truth that these statements were in extremely poor taste and hurtful. I do not share your worship of that god and therefore have absolutely no issue with calling a spade a spade.

Lastly, like I said, I'm no Lemming, I'm not afraid to call anyone out who insults a group of people that I am a part of. With his words, he places himself on a holier than thou pedestal.

I can't believe there are not some who at least feel the slap they received by those comments and have the balls to speak out in defense of all pool players. Those with or without other jobs. Geez, your word semantics regarding who his comments were pointed at are pretty transparent.

I know he donated his time, but I'm pretty sure he loves to hear himself talk anyway. Man it pisses me off even more thinking someone who profits from game puts himself above it.

That's it. I'm done. All wound up again....

OK, OK. I get it, I get it. You're not a lemming, lol. (geez, congratulations, whoopee)

And we are the stuff of pool
We are the world
We are the ones who make a brighter day

I get it, lol.

Look, though you may not be a lemming, on the other side of the fence agreeing with someone does not make them my god, so you may dismount your high horse anytime now. One thing you did let slip in this post is that you don’t like George Fels, to wit, “…I'm pretty sure he loves to hear himself talk anyway. Man it pisses me off even more thinking someone who profits from game puts himself above it.”

So, you're a George hater. No biggie -- we all have likes and dislikes. But at least we’ve established where you're coming from on all this and can take everything else you say on the subject with a due dose of salt.

Lou Figueroa

 

[G&M]

Why'd you have to bring me into the conversation?

Seriously, very nice post about George. You also wrote a very good straight pool book with Babe Cranfield.

Thank you, Rich. I've only met George once, at a Gallery of American Cue Art event held at the NY Athletic Club back in 1999. We only met for a few minutes, and I doubt he remembers. Also got to see Dan Dishaw there, another friend of Babe's. I think that was the first time I had met Dan.

This is starting to be a tangent of a tangent (and apologies for getting even further off subject), but I had a weird experience that night in '99. I was running late and coming straight from work, so I took a car service. On the way, the car owner/driver got a call from the dispatch center asking if he had found the prior customer's wallet (he hadn't). After the call, the guy driving turns around and says that he had just driven Paul Newman, and Mr. Newman had lost his wallet somewhere. That was my closest brush with Fast Eddie Felson!

The book is pretty old now. It came out back in 2000. At the time, it was a curiousity because it was the first book dedicated completely to a game that many people had forgotten about. We did not have the easiest time getting it published, but then it ended up doing pretty well. Globe Pequot just recently took it out of print. Was just up in Syracuse, and saw Babe's wife, Ruth, and one of their two sons, Larry. They're doing fine, and it was nice to see them, the old house, and reminisce a little.

Thanks again, Rich!

Larry

 

[Red Shoes]

Lou...Can I be a lemming please, can I? can I? can I? Well if I can't be a lemming, can I at least be a mousekateer. I still know the song and I always wanted to abuse Anette Funacello (back in the day of course). "MIC see you real soon, KEY why, because we like you...MOUS EEEEEE!

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...Can I be a lemming please, can I? can I? can I? Well if I can't be a lemming, can I at least be a mousekateer. I still know the song and I always wanted to abuse Anette Funacello (back in the day of course). "MIC see you real soon, KEY why, because we like you...MOUS EEEEEE!

John, I'm not sure who is in charge of lemming recruitment right about now, but I'll look into it. The way 3andstop keeps disavowing his membership, "I AM NOT A LEMMING!!" kinda reminded me of the train station scene in "The Elephant Man."

And oh yes, I wanted some of Annette Funicello too. Of course at that age, I wouldn't have had a clue what to do with her if I actually got her, but then, so many things in life are thataway

Lou Figueroa

 

[3andstop]

The way 3andstop keeps disavowing his membership, "I AM NOT A LEMMING!!" kinda reminded me of the train station scene in "The Elephant Man."

Lou Figueroa

The Elephant Man ... whew, pretty deep movie for a mere pool player. You got a TV in your trailer park?

 

[lfigueroa]

The Elephant Man ... whew, pretty deep movie for a mere pool player. You got a TV in your trailer park?

lol.

I have a confession to make: after about 15 years of engaging in running gun battles and sometimes hand-to-hand combat on pool on-line forums, and even receiving the occasional death threat over something I've posted on the internet, the thing that now tickles me the most nowadays is when someone -- that would be you, 3andstop -- does more public damage to themselves by their own hand, than anything I might say. It's like watching someone garrote themselves.

But OK, I'll play. "...trailer park?" Nice. My reception is good, how about yours?

You remain an admitted George Fels hater. You said he got things wrong, but when I asked you what was inaccurate you ignored the question. You are not a lemming, but perhaps something much worse

I await your volley with bait on my breath.

Lou Figueroa

 

[3andstop]

Well this is actually beginning to be fun. First of all, let me assure you that hate is not a word I choose to throw around quite so freely.

Do I hate Fels? Absolutely not. In fact I own two of his books. Three if you count the double print in the Mastering Pool book.

How's my reception? Ahh... ya know, my sister, who is also my mother, spends all her whoring money on crack, so we ain't got no annatana atall. :shrug:

 

[lfigueroa]

Well this is actually beginning to be fun. First of all, let me assure you that hate is not a word I choose to throw around quite so freely.

Do I hate Fels? Absolutely not. In fact I own two of his books. Three if you count the double print in the Mastering Pool book.

How's my reception? Ahh... ya know, my sister, who is also my mother, spends all her whoring money on crack, so we ain't got no annatana atall. :shrug:

Owning two of his books has no bearing on whether you hate him. What you say here does...

Lou Figueroa

 

[3andstop]

Alright I'm not going to keep going with this, I understand you are trying to defend a friend, but if you stood away from your blind defense of the man, you would clearly see that the insults and hurtful statements came from him long before I ever reacted to them. My statements are just that, a response to his insults. Justified and necessary. Especially seeing that no one else had the guts to do it.

As far as answering one of your previous posts, I think it's apparent that the things he said were not only insulting and hurtful but inaccurate.

People come from all walks of life, from all levels of income, and from all grades of schooling, all trades and careers. Clearly we have college graduates playing the game as well as some who never made it through grade school, and at high levels of play and in professional tournaments.

None of those things make or break the goodness of a person or for that matter their ability to communicate the English language. We are all different in life and pool is a microcosm of humanity. No more and no less.

To play semantics with the word pro in terms of who cashes in these tournament and who doesn't is laughable as a defense to his comments.

To put himself on a pedestal by implying he is better than the others involved in this game and by stating the game is being held back by the very people involved in it due to their laziness and lack of education is nothing less than disgusting to hear.

One of the many hurtful statements he made was relative to Danny D's commentary relative to his grammar. He said he should know better and he should "walk taller" as a commentator.

The balls to make that statement of needing to walk taller while insulting people as he commentates, was absolutely mind boggling and outrageous to listen to. There are lots of things integral to good commentary. Refraining from insults is far higher on that list than saying the word ain't.

Do I hate him? No. Do I give a rat's ass if I ever listen to another bit of his commentary until he apologizes for those things he said. No. Do I think he is an ass for saying those things. 100% absolutely YES.

Edit ... One more thing. Don't put words in my mouth about hating people. I hate that.

 

[sfleinen]

Folks:

Unfortunately -- and I mean the SADLY version of unfortunately, considering what I'm hearing about the quality of the stream -- I didn't get the opportunity to watch any of the matches or any part of the stream itself. (Just lots going on on my side.)

With that said, it can safely be assumed that what I'm about to say, is coming from almost as neutral a party as they come -- someone who hasn't watched one lick of the stream, and is only familiar with Mr. Fels through his published work.

Folks that know me, know that I'm a big supporter of opinion. I feel every person has the ability and the right to form one, the right to express it, and the right to defend it. That is the foundation of a public forum, afterall. As long as an opinion is clearly expressed, with no obvious disrespect, it is what it is -- just an opinion.

I read through this thread, and I think part of what's being lost here, is what's "opinion" vs what's "taking things too personally" vs what's "revenge for the sake of revenge." I'm a root-cause-analysis type of guy, and I was interested in finding out how this thread went awry.

I do think I found the root cause, though. Let's dive in...

I have to say something. I'm not the kind of guy who can bite his lip for any length of time if I hear or read something I feel is out of line, and I have an opportunity to speak my mind regarding it.

I want to "counter comment" if you will, on what George Fels said at about the 57 minute mark of the Andy Walker - Bob Cozzolino match. I won't be pulling any punches here either, because it really struck a nerve hearing it.

Anyone interested can certainly play that back, but in essence he said pool players in general are uninteresting, come from poverty, and have poor grammar among other comments. SPECIFICALLY pointing out Jim Rempe and Danny D's poor grammar.

Well let me say that there are two sides to every coin, Danny and Jim certainly don't fall at the far end of that spectrum in either direction, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't feel that comment was in good taste.

This, so far, is a very tastefully executed opinion. Right up to this point, as I was reading (unbiased, thus far -- I have no bias, because I didn't see the matches nor the stream, remember), it got me thinking. "Hmm... this is a good opinion of a commentator's commentary. Sidenote for self: did George really say something like that? I wonder what the precept was, what prompted him to go down that road, what prompted him to open his vest and dip a hand of cards like that..."

I was eager to read on, because it was so matter-of-fact based. That is, until, I got to this:

At the other end of the spectrum, far closer to its extreme, I feel your holier than thou commentary was dry, false, and cliched so much it bordered on annoying. Speaking of grammar issues you reminded me of someone yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAXb7qCCAo

So, you can slam me for my counter comment in defense of all mentioned and implied by George, but IMO it was out of line and uncalled for. Given the choice, I'd rather listen to 24hrs straight of either Jim's or Danny's commentary (grammar included) than suffer through 10 minutes of your cliched version.

Ouch. Ice-pick right in my eye, and in the eye of someone who had no vested interest or bias either way. I think this is the root cause of the ire in this thread. Not so much for the "Defenders of the Fels-faith" followers, but rather for the irascible finish to an otherwise well-written expression of an opinion. And it's a shame, too, because it started out merely as an "other side of the fence" expression of opinion -- these are many times a blast of fresh air. I sometimes find myself having little beefs with some of the things that commentators say or do, but I leverage my volume control if I find myself getting overly mired in a commentator's personal spiel or silly beliefs. If I'd heard George utter an unflattering knock against pool players in a stereotypical way, I wouldn't take personal issue with it, because I know it would never apply to me -- and I also know that if George met me, he'd feel the same way. Even if I *were* personally offended by what George said, I'd just adopt a "speak for yourself, George; you grew up like that, not me." Or, something like "that sounds like experience in classifying the company you keep, George." Or any of a number of come-backs like this.

Anyway, I'm thinking we're spending entirely too much time "defending sides" and lambasting each other. What's worse, is that the readers of this particular forum tend to take things much more personally than the other forums, especially really trivial stuff.

This is supposed to be the 14.1 forum, folks. Remember that "higher ground" thing? But yet a lot of us act like we have paper skin when something (or someone) that is considered "institution" is questioned. (That goes for both sides of the drama in this thread, btw.)

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

Alright I'm not going to keep going with this, I understand you are trying to defend a friend, but if you stood away from your blind defense of the man, you would clearly see that the insults and hurtful statements came from him long before I ever reacted to them. My statements are just that, a response to his insults. Justified and necessary. Especially seeing that no one else had the guts to do it.

As far as answering one of your previous posts, I think it's apparent that the things he said were not only insulting and hurtful but inaccurate.

People come from all walks of life, from all levels of income, and from all grades of schooling, all trades and careers. Clearly we have college graduates playing the game as well as some who never made it through grade school, and at high levels of play and in professional tournaments.

None of those things make or break the goodness of a person or for that matter their ability to communicate the English language. We are all different in life and pool is a microcosm of humanity. No more and no less.

To play semantics with the word pro in terms of who cashes in these tournament and who doesn't is laughable as a defense to his comments.

To put himself on a pedestal by implying he is better than the others involved in this game and by stating the game is being held back by the very people involved in it due to their laziness and lack of education is nothing less than disgusting to hear.

One of the many hurtful statements he made was relative to Danny D's commentary relative to his grammar. He said he should know better and he should "walk taller" as a commentator.

The balls to make that statement of needing to walk taller while insulting people as he commentates, was absolutely mind boggling and outrageous to listen to. There are lots of things integral to good commentary. Refraining from insults is far higher on that list than saying the word ain't.

Do I hate him? No. Do I give a rat's ass if I ever listen to another bit of his commentary until he apologizes for those things he said. No. Do I think he is an ass for saying those things. 100% absolutely YES.

Edit ... One more thing. Don't put words in my mouth about hating people. I hate that.

Yeah. It's a real problem when you say something and people make judgements about you based on those comments...

Lou Figueroa
sometimes those
judgements
are unfair

 

[Vahmurka]

Mike: I have not watched all of them. I am doing them one by one.

Thatns Dennis. I know I won't be able to do the same, hence asking. If you manage to hear - in the commentary - any good advice, any useful hint, or some other tips on how well it was played or how it should have been done, could you please name that match or matches for me.

<--- had to scroll down two pages of irrelevant posts