Ref Rulings in Vegas

[DJKeys]

I experienced two experiences I would like to share.

1. The new rule about calling banks or combination shots clearly states that the shot must be called, whether or not the opponent has any doubt about the shot. I had a match in which my opponent did not call the combination shot, and I stepped up to the table to take my turn. He said it was obvious, and I pointed out the new rule. We called the ref over and he told the ref he gestured toward the pocket. The new rule does not include any text about a motion or gesture. The ref ruled that my opponents gesture was enough. This interpretation did not seem correct to me.

2. Later in the same match, we were hill-hill. Our guy broke and scratched on the break. The opponent put the cueball way down by the foot spot and began to line up his shot. His teammates gestured and called out "behind the head string" which is blatant coaching.

The same ref ruled that the opponent would receive a warning. Our captain protested and called in the chief ref, and the game was suspended. After about 20 minutes, the chief ref ruled that our player should rebreak, instead of getting ball in hand.

Are these interpretations common?
Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[klockdoc]

I experienced two experiences I would like to share.

1. The new rule about calling banks or combination shots clearly states that the shot must be called, whether or not the opponent has any doubt about the shot. I had a match in which my opponent did not call the combination shot, and I stepped up to the table to take my turn. He said it was obvious, and I pointed out the new rule. We called the ref over and he told the ref he gestured toward the pocket. The new rule does not include any text about a motion or gesture. The ref ruled that my opponents gesture was enough. This interpretation did not seem correct to me.

2. Later in the same match, we were hill-hill. Our guy broke and scratched on the break. The opponent put the cueball way down by the foot spot and began to line up his shot. His teammates gestured and called out "behind the head string" which is blatant coaching.

The same ref ruled that the opponent would receive a warning. Our captain protested and called in the chief ref, and the game was suspended. After about 20 minutes, the chief ref ruled that our player should rebreak, instead of getting ball in hand.

Are these interpretations common? Why don't the refs enforce the rules as they are stated?

Any insight would be appreciated.

My thoughts on the subject.

1). New rule states that all shots must be called, not gestured. Bad call by referee. Some players will say though that they stated it and you never heard it. You need to question if you are uncertain when you notice the "gesture".

2). It is up to you to tell the opponent that he needs to return to the kitchen to shoot the shot. It is only a foul if you tell him to return and he ignores you.

I found that with shots in question, you call a referee. You have a 50% chance of it being a wrong call. 50% in your favor.

 

[Russ Chewning]

To be completely honest, this sounds like stuff only mid-level league players would pull.

If I am playing an opponent, and he makes a bank shot THAT HE OBVIOUSLY INTENDED, then I don't CARE what the rules are.. I'm gonna sit there with my mouth shut. If I am playing in a league where the rule is to call every single shot, and any large percentage of people try to "steal" the game by calling a foul because you didn't call a an obvious cross side bank, then that is probably not the league for me.

There is a general rule espoused by the better players in most leagues.. "Let the game decide the winner, not the rules." That means if your opponent is better than you, and is beating you, don't be chickens**t and try to get him on a technicality.

And as far as a player putting his ball over the line...Frankly, YOU should have been the one to be a good sport and point out to him that he was over the line. You should not be trying to win on technicalities.

This sounds like a match between two APA 4's.... Not good enough to win convincingly on skill, so they try to beat each other to death with the rulebook.

Russ

 

[Kanedog]

sounds petty to me...

I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

 

[DJKeys]

Russ-

Thanks for the input.

I think that in a cash tournament conditions should be at their most stringent. I agree this would never be called in league matches.

I was not involved in the #2 match.

 

[DJKeys]

My thoughts on the subject.

2). It is up to you to tell the opponent that he needs to return to the kitchen to shoot the shot. It is only a foul if you tell him to return and he ignores you.

Thanks, I was not aware this was a warning situation.

 

[ne14tennis]

Just my opinion

My thoughts on the subject.

2). It is up to you to tell the opponent that he needs to return to the kitchen to shoot the shot. It is only a foul if you tell him to return and he ignores you.

Thanks, I was not aware this was a warning situation.

As far as the combination shot. Some people may be right in that during league play this wouldn't be an issue (I've seen more pettiness at league than tournaments), however at the nationals or state finals....sorry but it's a rule and if he didn't clearly state what his intention was, than in that case it's a foul.

As for the break shot. If the cue ball is within a ball width of the headstring...you must warn him. If he doesn't return the ball it is a foul. If you fail to warn him and then try to say something after the shot....too late, he keeps shooting. If the ball was clearly over the line, you're not required to say anything until he/she shoots and then it's a foul ball-in-hand to you.

If his teammates are the people that alerted him and I had been called over to the table.......foul for coaching. There is no warning, if it took place it's a foul

 

[av84fun]

Russ, I understand where you are coming from but I think your views should be confined to buddies bangin' 'em around playing small.

In organized comeptitions, including league play the failure to abide by rules makes a mockery of the entire league.

If decisions are left up to the individual sensibilities of each player or captain, then there will be no consistency in the way the matches are played and would be VERY unfair to other teams.

If the league players don't really give a damn if they win or lose and are just there for an excuse to get out of the house and toss down some brewskies, then fine...who cares.

But I assume that a LOT of league players take their games very seriously and DO want to win.

If that is true, then your views would lead to a team/player at one end of the room getting knocked out of contention and another team/player advancing in the standings because one table calls fouls and the other doesn't.

But in the examples cited, the Ref was WAY, WAY off base and should at least be spoken to by leauge officials if not barred from reffing.

Investing in a Ref the authority to call fouls on one team and possibly NOT call the same foul on another team (and how would you know whether he is or is not doing exactly that) is just out of control.

Again, for pals hanging out and playing some, your views are fine.

And where do you draw the line in your "No law West of the Pecos" concept.

I saw a player in a money match for several hundred a set play what COULD have been either a push out, OR an attempt to thin an OB and send the CB down table.

He did NOT call "push" and the CB did not touch the close by OB and the shot turned out to be a foul but when the opponent called it on him he got VERY indignant and said it was OBVIOUS that he was pushing.

The reason there are rules is to prevent that sort of thing from happening AND to make the outcomes of the matches fair for all OTHER players/teams who can be affected unfairly by inconsistencies in the enforcement of rules.

Finally, I know you are speaking from your own experience but I doubt your experience is nearly broad enough to be able to judge how all, or even the majority of leagues would handle rules related issues. I therefore dispute your assertion that only APA 4s are inclined to call a foul a foul.

In my experience, the "banger" thing to do is commit a foul and then go whining about having it called on you like some high school sand lot player.

CERTAINLY, ALL fouls are called, if detected in major professional sports of all kinds so...at best...what you are advocating is amateurish.

Regards,
Jim

To be completely honest, this sounds like stuff only mid-level league players would pull.

If I am playing an opponent, and he makes a bank shot THAT HE OBVIOUSLY INTENDED, then I don't CARE what the rules are.. I'm gonna sit there with my mouth shut. If I am playing in a league where the rule is to call every single shot, and any large percentage of people try to "steal" the game by calling a foul because you didn't call a an obvious cross side bank, then that is probably not the league for me.

There is a general rule espoused by the better players in most leagues.. "Let the game decide the winner, not the rules." That means if your opponent is better than you, and is beating you, don't be chickens**t and try to get him on a technicality.

And as far as a player putting his ball over the line...Frankly, YOU should have been the one to be a good sport and point out to him that he was over the line. You should not be trying to win on technicalities.

This sounds like a match between two APA 4's.... Not good enough to win convincingly on skill, so they try to beat each other to death with the rulebook.

Russ

 

[soulcatcher]

To be completely honest, this sounds like stuff only mid-level league players would pull.

If I am playing an opponent, and he makes a bank shot THAT HE OBVIOUSLY INTENDED, then I don't CARE what the rules are.. I'm gonna sit there with my mouth shut. If I am playing in a league where the rule is to call every single shot, and any large percentage of people try to "steal" the game by calling a foul because you didn't call a an obvious cross side bank, then that is probably not the league for me.

There is a general rule espoused by the better players in most leagues.. "Let the game decide the winner, not the rules." That means if your opponent is better than you, and is beating you, don't be chickens**t and try to get him on a technicality.

And as far as a player putting his ball over the line...Frankly, YOU should have been the one to be a good sport and point out to him that he was over the line. You should not be trying to win on technicalities.

This sounds like a match between two APA 4's.... Not good enough to win convincingly on skill, so they try to beat each other to death with the rulebook.

Russ

I do not believe there is such a thing as an "obvious cross side bank". If you were to make that shot without in some way indicating which pocket you are shotting at, I would call the foul as well. How do I know you were not going cross corner, and missed that bad? How do I know you were not playing Safe and made the ball by accident? That is why there are rules. The rules state that any bank, carom, or combo is not an "obvious" shot, and must be called.

 

[shinobi]

This reminds me of an old video match I saw where Mika Immonen was playing in Asia. He calls a push, plays a push, and the referee calls a foul on him because he didn't call a push shot.

Not only was it incredibly obvious that he was doing a push (shot softly in the exact opposite direction of the object ball) but since it was a video I watched it again and indeed Mika did call a push (quite audibly, in fact).

I agree with Russ in that it's not good to win on a technicality anyway. If the guy clearly did intend to make the combination but didn't gesture appropriately, I'd never call a foul for that. That's despite the fact that in the same tournament (where I've let those things go) people have called them on me.

In the IPT 8-ball tournaments it was mandatory to call all shots, but you may have noticed quite often the shots were not called and the refs let it go, occasionally reminding players to call the shots. Can you imagine if they had literally called a foul on every single uncalled shot? I'd like to see the outcome of that, for sheer entertainment value.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Russ, I understand where you are coming from but I think your views should be confined to buddies bangin' 'em around playing small.

.......

CERTAINLY, ALL fouls are called, if detected in major professional sports of all kinds so...at best...what you are advocating is amateurish.

Regards,
Jim

Jim,

I see where you are coming from as well. Let me make clear that I was speaking from the viewpoint of the person "calling" the foul. Personally, if I am playing league, I am going to act according to my personal core values when it comes to these situations.

Yes, I understand that at times, because I think like this, a lower-ranked player is going to get one over on me from time to time. That being said, I still will not "personally" make the choice to take a shot from my opponent in any but the most obvious cases.

If they are a lower ranked player and pull a "move" on me, then I will enforce everything from that point on. Most likely, they are not going to win unless they are sandbagging their rating, anyways. If they are a good player, I expect them to be a good sportsman as well. If not, then I will deal with that as it comes.

It may be as you say, and my experience may not be broad enough. I played perhaps two or three nights of APA 9 ball, got disgusted with the rules, and no longer subbed for that team anymore. I've done just fine in weekly open tournaments though..

And that is generally what I prefer: Open tournaments, winner-breaks, no handicaps. Maybe I am not cut out for league play. I like to compete against multiple top notch players in one evening. I had a practice session with Blackjack, and he suggested I should immediately hop into the Seminole events and leave the King's Bay tournaments alone. I am still trying to make up my mind on that. I LOVE winner breaks formats, but then again, I haven't played any good players in so long, the amateur events might get me back in the competitive groove.

Either way, I was merely making a statement about how I personally would choose to handle these situations. I can pay close attention to calling my own shots if needed, that's not the problem. I just enjoy competing against other good players, acting like honorable gentlemen and women. If someone plays a safe and accidentally makes a ball on me, and they act like they intended that... And I STILL beat them.. Well, for me...That's a moral victory..

Russ

 

[watchez]

How would you rule this?

Before the inning starts for my opponent, I call a ball froze. The opponent shoots and pockets a different ball. His next shot he lags to the froze ball, not getting a rail but making contact with the froze ball.

 

[elvicash]

Rules are important and they do need to be followed and called when broken however I have to agree with Russ on this issue.

I would not call a foul when a gesture is made for a cross-side shot.

Also, I would tell my opponent he is not in the kitchen prior to him shooting. This would have prevented the illegal coaching.

I do agree the illegal coaching should be called and this was mishandled by the ref.

I had a guy call a foul on me recently for lining up my break shot with my cue shaft. I did not know the local rules, but I did not argue, I did bear down a little more and he was eliminated.

Good advice given earlier - Call for a ref prior on any close shot whether you are shooting or the opponent.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Watchez,

And that's the sort of thing I am talking about. If he agreed with the ball being froze, it is most probably a foul. And he did it anyways, showing a lack of character if he did not give up ball in hand.

Now, I said "probably" a foul, because a shot occurring any on the table can move a ball minutely. So, technically, if you did not look at the ball immediately before his safety, he can say it was no longer frozen.

Russ

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I experienced two experiences I would like to share.

1. The new rule about calling banks or combination shots clearly states that the shot must be called, whether or not the opponent has any doubt about the shot. I had a match in which my opponent did not call the combination shot, and I stepped up to the table to take my turn. He said it was obvious, and I pointed out the new rule. We called the ref over and he told the ref he gestured toward the pocket. The new rule does not include any text about a motion or gesture. The ref ruled that my opponents gesture was enough. This interpretation did not seem correct to me.

2. Later in the same match, we were hill-hill. Our guy broke and scratched on the break. The opponent put the cueball way down by the foot spot and began to line up his shot. His teammates gestured and called out "behind the head string" which is blatant coaching.

The same ref ruled that the opponent would receive a warning. Our captain protested and called in the chief ref, and the game was suspended. After about 20 minutes, the chief ref ruled that our player should rebreak, instead of getting ball in hand.

Are these interpretations common?
Any insight would be appreciated.

I read your post with great interest and think things were handle per BCA Rules.

Now let me give you a little information about BCA Referees. IMHO they are very necessary, under paid, over worked, and not really appreciated.

To become a Local Referee it is my understand that the prospective candidate must study the BCA Rule, and test, and pass said written test.

If they wish to be a REFEREE at the National 8 Ball Championships they pay $75.00 out of pock for a MANDATORY CLASS, and Apprenticeship Time on the Tournament Floor with a National Referee. On top of that $75.00 is the Cost of said Class, and does not include Uniform or SHOES.

Than if they pass the National Class in Sin City, and also the Apprenticeship they could be invited back to Sin City to be a Referee, and get like $40.00/Day that is a 8-10 Hour Shift, plus food stipend, and a Room at the Rivera that get shared with another Referee.

 

[watchez]

Watchez,

And that's the sort of thing I am talking about. If he agreed with the ball being froze, it is most probably a foul. And he did it anyways, showing a lack of character if he did not give up ball in hand.

Now, I said "probably" a foul, because a shot occurring any on the table can move a ball minutely. So, technically, if you did not look at the ball immediately before his safety, he can say it was no longer frozen.

Russ

Exactly the argument that was used on me Russ. So, after calling a ball froze and your opponent pockets another object ball - you should get up out of your chair, lean over and determine if the ball is froze again. You should do this after each and every ball your opponent pockets until he runs out. Hopefully your opponent won't deem this as some form of sharking & knows that you are just abiding by the rules.

 

[Cuebacca]

How would you rule this?

Before the inning starts for my opponent, I call a ball froze. The opponent shoots and pockets a different ball. His next shot he lags to the froze ball, not getting a rail but making contact with the froze ball.

I've been wondering about this for a while, but keep forgetting to start a thread about it. LOL. In my opinion, it's important enough to deserve its own thread.

I think it should still be considered frozen until the inning is over or until it is moved by a ball. If the player happens to notice that it became "spontaneously unfrozen" (thawed?), he is allowed to declare it no longer frozen.

I don't think the rules support this, but IMO, they should.

 

[av84fun]

How would you rule this?

Before the inning starts for my opponent, I call a ball froze. The opponent shoots and pockets a different ball. His next shot he lags to the froze ball, not getting a rail but making contact with the froze ball.

That is an obvious foul and it would be foolish not to call it...friendly game or not.

And if I were your opponent, I would call it on myself and if you tried to let it pass, I would refuse saying that I want to beat you fair and square or not at all.

That is kind of my point. Where does it end...this business about selective enforcement of the rules??

And it is blatantly unfair for ALL other competitors in the tournament. If you didn't call the foul and you are the weaker player but would have knocked the better guy out if you called the foul...but he stays IN and drills everyone else, you have really SCREWED them big time.

It's a two sided equation...if you give charity to one player you are screwing another.

And it is so easy and can be so friendly to just say to your opponent...Hey, let's play by the rules...no charity, OK?

Regards,
Jim

 

[Fatboy]

the more rules the lesser the player....

 

[av84fun]

I've been wondering about this for a while, but keep forgetting to start a thread about it. LOL. In my opinion, it's important enough to deserve its own thread.

I think it should still be considered frozen until the inning is over or until it is moved by a ball. If the player happens to notice that it became "spontaneously unfrozen" (thawed?), he is allowed to declare it no longer frozen.

I don't think the rules support this, but IMO, they should.

It should only be considered frozen if it's frozen. The time to make that call...and I will slightly modify my post to watchez here...is JUST before a frozen ball is shot at.

I don't think you should or are required under the rules to wander around the table before the opponent's inning starts making frozen ball calls.

the time to make the call is when any such ball is going to come into play on the next shot.

Regards,
Jim