Repeat Lesson Concern

Williebetmore said:
DCP,
Actually, it would be quite prudent to NOT show any interest in advice offered here. While I love the cuetable diagrams as a way to show general positions; advice given based on these diagrams is QUITE flawed. Pool is a game of inches; and the small diagrams do NOT give a true picture of what is possible. As you are well aware, most of the advice you receive is based on flawed assumptions about what is or is not possible; only the player at the table at the time of the shot is able to know this (as you always point out at some point in the thread).

Also, as in this thread, you give no clue as to your goals. A thread on a specific shot should include info on WHY you are asking (otherwise we are subjected to the usual flurry of sarcasm and misguided wit). A thread such as this on "possible lessons" should at the very minimum include a statement of your goals - otherwise all of this "advice" (like mine) is useless.

If your goal is to be a good player (defined as one who RARELY misses a makeable shot; NOT defined by runout capability); then you are not there if my review of your last 100 posts is an indication. If your goal is to have a good stroke (which is necessary to become a good player); then you are not there either. If your goal is to be a casual, above average player; then why take any lessons - you're already there?

To me, any player that wants to advance should work on their stroke until they are a BALL POCKETING MACHINE; then learn how to play pool. If I were an instructor; I would give up on any student that could not develop killer ball pocketing skills within 2-3 years - it's not complicated; but it does require fortitude. At a half-hour a day of proper practice for a year or two, you should not be missing the shots you describe. You describe spending a lot of time practicing/playing for several years; you should be near pro-level by now. If your stroke was great, you WOULD be running out often enough to satisfy yourself, and there would NOT be much variation in your game from day to day. You would LOVE IT.

If you really want to be a good player (as defined by this elite group that is AZB); then develop a great stroke with the stroke guru's. Then seek out the pro's who can tell you as you play what principle's to follow (AZB cuetable discussions are not the way to do it). Everyone knows the proper principles, but knowing when to use them and when to ignore them as you play is something the pro's can teach you in short order. Once you do this, then you need to COMPETE. Pool IS competition, and playing in competition is VERY different than practicing. Playing under the pressure of gambling/league competition is GOOD FOR YOUR GAME; and allows improvement that may never come without it. Hope this all helps. Good luck.

P.S. - all of the above is not my view of things; it was what was told to me 5 years ago by a pro who took an interest in my desire to learn.
Click to expand...

What are my goals relative to possibly taking a lesson?

well, perhaps i am searching for a handful of things:

1) having a hard time getting comfortable over a shot now. as a result i dont feel confident i am going to make the shot. also cannot tell if i am aligning straight and stroking straight through the cue ball. i guess mechanics are one of the areas i could use some help with. the long, straight in draw shot still gives me trouble.

2) help with the break shot. this still continues, as a general rule, to haunt me. some nights its clicking, the majority of the time its not.

3) the mental game can use some help. i stand over a shot and at times i have that "Oh Please, Dont Miss This Shot" attitude instead of just firing it in.

i dont want an instructor to try and "COMPLETELY CHANGE" the way i am doing things like another instructor did. i was told by several very knowledgable people the stance i was taught was ridiculous, that just because the instructor does it that way doesnt mean i should. i want someone to "TWEAK" what i am doing now, get me back on track, and help in the few areas listed above.

DCP
 
if u keep looking regularly for improvement you'll never see it, focus on playing the game and not at improving it, you need patience more than anything else
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this is very true. it's easier said than done, but just focus on doing your practice and training and your playing and competing, and improvement will just happen. patience is a virtue, but most importantly, FAITH. believe in your ability. be at one with yourself and don't doubt that you will improve.

at the end of the day you need two things to be great at pool.

-to put in all the work at the table.
-and the mental game.

the first you are doing an amazing job at you just need to tweak things.
the second you don't. which is nothing to be ashamed of. read pleasures of small motions and the inner game of tennis. multiple times. they (especially POSM) are amazing books by any standard, not just billiard literature.

also, are you happy with other areas of your life? are you in the pool room with a smile on your face and have people you love/care about in your life. i say this because pool has probably the biggest mental element out of any sport, and your general wellbeing will have such a huge effect.

and finally, this ties in to what i've already said but it's more specific. when you're down on a shot or beofre you get down, say to yourself "why am i telling myself i am gonna miss this? what the hell is the point?" we play pool for fun, for enjoyment, and for that pure pleasure of pocketing billiard balls that is bliss to our senses. enjoy it. when we are thrusting away inside a woman in a state of extreme delight we don't say to ourselves "oh no, my penis is gonna break off" so why is it in pool we tell ourselves we might miss the shot? it's bloody stupid!

i say all this cause i've quite recently got to grips with it all and am quite at one with my game after about two years of mental suffering and self torture. the above sort of logical, positive thinking finally hit me in the face.

anyway i've got a bit carried away here and am somewhat reluctant to click the post button lol, but it's a subject close to heart. good luck!
 
Johnson said:
instead of an instructor you'd be better off seeing a sports psychologist, u have the wrong approach to improving your game, if u keep looking regularly for improvement you'll never see it, focus on playing the game and not at improving it, you need patience more than anything else, until u find it you'll be stuck in a big rut u may never get out of
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This is very interesting advice DCP, something you should consider. Understand that many top level athletes use sports psychologists, it is NOT a sign of any weakness.

Dave
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
.... i was told by several very knowledgable people the stance i was taught was ridiculous, that just because the instructor does it that way doesnt mean i should. ...
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I'm curious. What was the stance?
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
What are my goals relative to possibly taking a lesson?

well, perhaps i am searching for a handful of things:......

i dont want an instructor to try and "COMPLETELY CHANGE" the way i am doing things like another instructor did. ...... i want someone to "TWEAK" what i am doing now, get me back on track, and help in the few areas listed above.

DCP
Click to expand...

DCP,
That is not what I meant by "goals."

How good do you want to get?

How much time are you prepared to spend to get that good (how many hours a day for how many years)?

What are you prepared to change to reach your goal?? If you are not prepared to change certain things about your game; then what does this other person offer to get you to your goal in a reasonable amount of time? The person changing your stance has NEVER said that is the only way to shoot; just the least complicated way if you want to get good in the shortest time - and he has MANY students who have done it that way and succeeded - he has MANY students with more unorthodox swings who have also succeeded (but I believe he also has many he has given up on too). It's easy to say that any stroke is okay; but there better be a concrete and proven plan to back it up - you can't become Keith McCready overnight (there's only one so far:) ). Make sure that your unorthodox stroke proponents (the knowledgeable people you mention in your post) know how to guide you to correct ball pocketing problems - such problems are EXTREMELY difficult (not to mention time consuming) to fix if the stroke is unusual. If he just says shoot a thousand of any shot you miss, then beware.

If you don't discuss these specific things with your potential instructors; then they can't assess whether your goals are realistic or whether they can even help you or not.

Perhaps you don't have any long term goals, or perhaps you choose not to share them; but your game overall will benefit from concrete goals (that include the issues above) and a concrete and measurable plan to achieve them. Anything less, and your chances of becoming pro-caliber are slim to none.

The goals you mention are not going to affect your overall level of play very much - if you think those things will make up for lack of killer ball pocketing skills, you will probably be disappointed.

P.S. - in the 2 years or so that I have been working on such a plan (probably 30-60 minutes a day, 5 days a week); I have seen noticeable improvement steadily each 2-4 weeks. It would drive me crazy not to be improving steadily.
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
then the BCA website was wrong several years ago, because he was listed as a certified master instructor.

funny, Randy, if you will remember the 2002 BCA, you and i had this same conversation seated next to where Rossman and Massey were doing their thing. the little room at the Riviera with Tom and Mike, with the Sardo boys doing their tight rack thing, and Loree Jon Jones singing.

doubt you remember me though...........

DCP
Click to expand...


I remember you very well.

Tom was listed as a CERTIFIED BCA Instructor, never a Master. He certainly well could be one if he chose to do so. He is an asset in all areas of our sport as well as a role model in life.....randyg
 
Randy, pooltchr,

Sorry, but I have to be blunt. The BCA accreditation means exactly squat to me right now. They are not representing the sports' interest, they are representing their own.

I think that an instructor's reputation should be on the instrcutor's merits, not some accreditation he has earned. Both of you have earned the respect of the pool community. So has Tom, so I am not sure why it matters if he has a certain certification.

If the BCA wasn't totally worthless as an association right now, then maybe I would see things differently.

Russ
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i want someone to "TWEAK" what i am doing now, get me back on track, and help in the few areas listed above.

DCP
Click to expand...

Then you should DO IT.

A big problem you have is talking too much about what you do and what you are planning to do and when you talk that much you leave doors open for criticism and negativity.

Just DO IT! Don't talk about it. Don't tell anyone what you are planning. Don't form a committee, don't tell anyone! Keep it a secret and it will grow in your mind and heart. When you let it out a little of the dream dies with every airing. Read that again: keep it a secret and it will grow in your mind and heart. When you let it out a little of the dream dies with every airing.

Shut the f... up and put your plan into action.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm curious. What was the stance?
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this instructor had me so turned, so wide open, so spread out, it hurt my kneck, shoulder, and thighs, and wore me out to stand that way for a few seconds.

somebody once said on here that he could always tell when someone had taken a lesson from this instructor.............:eek:

during the lesson i asked at least twice, "You Mean Like This?" and got a "Yes" response every time. i tried to work on this stance, but had to give up. when i showed it to some other very fine players, including a couple of pros, they kind of laughed and thought it was going way overboard.

needless to say, i felt the whole experience was, for the most part, $300 pretty much down the tubes..........

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
somebody once said on here that he could always tell when someone had taken a lesson from this instructor.............:eek:

DCP
Click to expand...

DCP,
Don't believe everything you hear on the forum (that was NOT a reliable source:) :) - I hope you do not give equal creedence to all posters ). His pro students mechanics are left mostly intact (with a fair number of unorthodox strokes at that). I'm suspecting your stroke may not have been professional quality at the time; I also suspect you did not have follow-up for corrections/adjustments.

Having said that, all beginning level players are definitely taught a similar (but NOT identical) stance; with all of the same basics as every other top instructor I have encountered. Comfort, clearance, balance. It only took me 2 years to get decent mechanics (still some work to do); but it was 2 years well spent, and I'm positive I could not have done it on my own.

Have the "stance critics" fixed your problems? What was their solution, and how has it worked?
 
If you've been standing incorrectly, when you do finally correct your stance, it will probably feel slightly "uncomfortable" until you get used to it.
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP,
Don't believe everything you hear on the forum (that was NOT a reliable source:) :) - I hope you do not give equal creedence to all posters ). His pro students mechanics are left mostly intact (with a fair number of unorthodox strokes at that). I'm suspecting your stroke may not have been professional quality at the time; I also suspect you did not have follow-up for corrections/adjustments.

Having said that, all beginning level players are definitely taught a similar (but NOT identical) stance; with all of the same basics as every other top instructor I have encountered. Comfort, clearance, balance. It only took me 2 years to get decent mechanics (still some work to do); but it was 2 years well spent, and I'm positive I could not have done it on my own.

Have the "stance critics" fixed your problems? What was their solution, and how has it worked?
Click to expand...

well, this instructor knew coming in i had taken lessons from a couple of other highly qualified instructors. i made it clear i didnt need a COMPLETE OVERHAUL, but a TUNE UP, and i got the "DO IT THE WAY I DO IT" lesson. i actually considered just walking out, and thanking him for his time, and saving myself the $200.

when i showed this to my buddy Dave (very, very fine player, 1998 BCA 8-Ball Champion, did pretty good in some pro tournaments too, but is now deceased) he sort of looked at me kinda funny and said "Your Shi~tting Me, Right?"

Dave told me my mechanics looked pretty good, i ran racks with Dave, played some pretty good safeties, tied him in sets the last time before he became ill, and was feeling pretty good about the game. Dave told me he felt i delivered the cue straight, and from what he could tell, pretty much had a "Repeating" delivery.

perhaps i do need to have this other instructor come down and evaluate me. i might need a refresher. but, hopefully any changes will be of the MINOR TWEAKING variety, and not "DO IT LIKE I DO IT" type of instruction.

DCP
 
Sounds like you need a coach more than an instructor. You may need someone to structure your practice so that your weaknesses are addressed and eliminated/reduced. You sound like you have enough information but are not using it in the most efficient manner.
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP,
Actually, it would be quite prudent to NOT show any interest in advice offered here. While I love the cuetable diagrams as a way to show general positions; advice given based on these diagrams is QUITE flawed. Pool is a game of inches; and the small diagrams do NOT give a true picture of what is possible. As you are well aware, most of the advice you receive is based on flawed assumptions about what is or is not possible; only the player at the table at the time of the shot is able to know this (as you always point out at some point in the thread).

Also, as in this thread, you give no clue as to your goals. A thread on a specific shot should include info on WHY you are asking (otherwise we are subjected to the usual flurry of sarcasm and misguided wit). A thread such as this on "possible lessons" should at the very minimum include a statement of your goals - otherwise all of this "advice" (like mine) is useless.

If your goal is to be a good player (defined as one who RARELY misses a makeable shot; NOT defined by runout capability); then you are not there if my review of your last 100 posts is an indication. If your goal is to have a good stroke (which is necessary to become a good player); then you are not there either. If your goal is to be a casual, above average player; then why take any lessons - you're already there?

To me, any player that wants to advance should work on their stroke until they are a BALL POCKETING MACHINE; then learn how to play pool. If I were an instructor; I would give up on any student that could not develop killer ball pocketing skills within 2-3 years - it's not complicated; but it does require fortitude. At a half-hour a day of proper practice for a year or two, you should not be missing the shots you describe. You describe spending a lot of time practicing/playing for several years; you should be near pro-level by now. If your stroke was great, you WOULD be running out often enough to satisfy yourself, and there would NOT be much variation in your game from day to day. You would LOVE IT.

If you really want to be a good player (as defined by this elite group that is AZB); then develop a great stroke with the stroke guru's. Then seek out the pro's who can tell you as you play what principle's to follow (AZB cuetable discussions are not the way to do it). Everyone knows the proper principles, but knowing when to use them and when to ignore them as you play is something the pro's can teach you in short order. Once you do this, then you need to COMPETE. Pool IS competition, and playing in competition is VERY different than practicing. Playing under the pressure of gambling/league competition is GOOD FOR YOUR GAME; and allows improvement that may never come without it. Hope this all helps. Good luck.

P.S. - all of the above is not my view of things; it was what was told to me 5 years ago by a pro who took an interest in my desire to learn.
Click to expand...

:eek: GREAT post.

Eric.
 
I kno I have been hard on U in the past, so this time I will leave the joking out.

U seem like a very stubborn N close minded person. Not a bash, just sumthing I got from UR posts. Maybe that is killing UR progress??

Brian
 
Russ Chewning said:
Randy, pooltchr,

Sorry, but I have to be blunt. The BCA accreditation means exactly squat to me right now. They are not representing the sports' interest, they are representing their own.

I think that an instructor's reputation should be on the instrcutor's merits, not some accreditation he has earned. Both of you have earned the respect of the pool community. So has Tom, so I am not sure why it matters if he has a certain certification.

If the BCA wasn't totally worthless as an association right now, then maybe I would see things differently.

Russ
Click to expand...

Hi Russ. Don't be so hard on a good Trade Asso. They try very hard. They just don't represent the player is all.......randyg
 
u12armresl said:
If you have taken lessons from 3 different people and still struggle with the basic elements of the game then as hundreds of people before me have said, this game is not for you.
Click to expand...

This is a very interesting post. When I think of struggling "with the basic elements of the game" I'm reminded of a match between Earl and Cory Deuel, I think, that I watched on youtube or somewhere else, where both of them missed what I'd consider quite simple shots into a side pocket. That is two top pro players missed shots that I'd get down on myself for missing. Truth be told, the shots they missed weren't hard, but they missed them. You and I both know it's quite simple to miss an easy cut shot, especially when the pressure is on. I've done it so many times it's embarrassing. So, rather than tell someone to forget about pool, why not encourage him?

For all I know, DCP has some sighting problem that is unrelated to his stroke, and he hasn't figured it out yet. A little sighting or vision problem can really make things tougher in pool

DCP, I've taken lessons from 6 teachers so far. The last one, with Mark Wilson, was all of probably 10 minutes long, and was the one that helped me the most of any of them.

DCP, go for the lessons!

Flex
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP,
Actually, it would be quite prudent to NOT show any interest in advice offered here. While I love the cuetable diagrams as a way to show general positions; advice given based on these diagrams is QUITE flawed. Pool is a game of inches; and the small diagrams do NOT give a true picture of what is possible. As you are well aware, most of the advice you receive is based on flawed assumptions about what is or is not possible; only the player at the table at the time of the shot is able to know this (as you always point out at some point in the thread).

Also, as in this thread, you give no clue as to your goals. A thread on a specific shot should include info on WHY you are asking (otherwise we are subjected to the usual flurry of sarcasm and misguided wit). A thread such as this on "possible lessons" should at the very minimum include a statement of your goals - otherwise all of this "advice" (like mine) is useless.

If your goal is to be a good player (defined as one who RARELY misses a makeable shot; NOT defined by runout capability); then you are not there if my review of your last 100 posts is an indication. If your goal is to have a good stroke (which is necessary to become a good player); then you are not there either. If your goal is to be a casual, above average player; then why take any lessons - you're already there?

To me, any player that wants to advance should work on their stroke until they are a BALL POCKETING MACHINE; then learn how to play pool. If I were an instructor; I would give up on any student that could not develop killer ball pocketing skills within 2-3 years - it's not complicated; but it does require fortitude. At a half-hour a day of proper practice for a year or two, you should not be missing the shots you describe. You describe spending a lot of time practicing/playing for several years; you should be near pro-level by now. If your stroke was great, you WOULD be running out often enough to satisfy yourself, and there would NOT be much variation in your game from day to day. You would LOVE IT.

If you really want to be a good player (as defined by this elite group that is AZB); then develop a great stroke with the stroke guru's. Then seek out the pro's who can tell you as you play what principle's to follow (AZB cuetable discussions are not the way to do it). Everyone knows the proper principles, but knowing when to use them and when to ignore them as you play is something the pro's can teach you in short order. Once you do this, then you need to COMPETE. Pool IS competition, and playing in competition is VERY different than practicing. Playing under the pressure of gambling/league competition is GOOD FOR YOUR GAME; and allows improvement that may never come without it. Hope this all helps. Good luck.

P.S. - all of the above is not my view of things; it was what was told to me 5 years ago by a pro who took an interest in my desire to learn.
Click to expand...


TAP, TAP, TAP!!
 
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