Replacing floating rail nuts - gold crown 3

fastone371 said:
The problem is that it seems to me the guy who did the recover has absolutely no idea what he is doing.:mad:
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That is probably the worst part. This guy has been doing tables for 20+ years and left it in that state. The new cloth looks great, it's just the rails being bolted is the problem.

He said he had worked on gold crowns before but didn't know what I meant when I said it was a gold crown "3".
 
reverend said:
If you have another set of hands, all you have to do is get all the rail bolts out (18) and lift the rails and skirts off in one piece. The Head end of the table needs to be lifted first and then pushed towards the foot end to clear the ball box then lift. Once off just flip them over on the table and do what needs to be done.
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Well that sounds much easier than I expected. I can definitely get that far on my own. Thanks Rev.

From what I am reading the floating nuts can only be accessed from behind the cushion. I wouldn't even attempt that myself but would be interested in seeing what the compartment looks like that they sit in.
 
caff3in3 said:
That is probably the worst part. This guy has been doing tables for 20+ years and left it in that state. The new cloth looks great, it's just the rails being bolted is the problem.

He said he had worked on gold crowns before but didn't know what I meant when I said it was a gold crown "3".
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I don't care how long he's been working on pool tables, 20+ years just makes it even worse, rail bolts are required to hold the rails on the slate....and he just over looked to need to fix them right, period.
 
Thank you for saying that. I tend to give people too many chances.



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Well I have fantastic news. I hadn't heard back from the guy for over 2 days. Against my better judgement I tried to get them out myself. I gently apply downward pressure and backed each one out!

I will probably have some more questions if I decide to do any additional fixes.

Thanks for all of the input and support . If any of you are down my way the beer and lobster are on me.



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Thanks Pat - and there are normally just a couple finish nails that prevent this from spinning?
 
In most of the GC3 tables I have worked on they have the left insert in them. The only GC3 tables that I have seen that have the right inserts are the very early GC3s that also have the T-straps on the ends of the rails that the corner castings attach to.
The floating inserts are installed perpendicular to the rails in narrow but deep cavities and are very secure. The inserts on the left which are the most common on GC3 tables are the problem inserts that will almost fold in half and spin in the cavities.

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bigchase said:
Sounds like the rails already loose so you won't have to pry the rails up.you do realize that a hacksaw blade is approximately 1/16th of an inch thick right? Telling someone who probably has never drilled a bold out to use a 3/8's drill to offer the head of the bolt while trying to hold the head of the bolt with a wrench isn't the easiest thing to do. You're setting him up for failure is he's not comfortable using a drill because to drill the heads off he needs to stay in the center of the head of the bolt and with the markings on the bolt head that's not going to be an easy task. If he can't get a hacksaw blade slid unerring the rails and has to drill the heads off the bolts he needs proper instruction on how to accomplish that. He needs a center punch and a hammer to mark the center of the bolt then he needs the correct drill bits to drill that bolt out depending on the material it's made of. Then to make sure he stays in the center of the bolt and doesn't cause any damage to the table he needs to start with a much smaller drill bit than a 3/8's drill bit and drill just deep enough to get through the head of the bolt. Then he should continue by stepping up in increments until he reaches the 3/8'spo and the head of the bolt comes off. I'm an aviation sheet metal mechanic with over 20 years experience I've drilled out more than enough fasteners to know what I'm talking about.

The easiest way since the rail is loose is to slide the hacksaw blade use your drill with an adapter to spin the bolt while applying pressure on the hacksaw blade against the bolt. Less of a chance of causing damage to the table or making things more difficult for him by drilling the bolt off center and then really needing help to get it out. Then it will be much easier to get the captive nuts out of the rails and replaced when you flip the rail upside down on the bench and work on it with more access than upside down under the table
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I've been working on pool tables for over 32 years...LOL the easiest was to center drill the heads of the bolts is to place a 9/16" socket over the head of the bolt, then use that with a 3/8" drill bit which will be held centered on the head of the bolt....if it's a 3/8" drive socket...LOL
 
bigchase said:
The easiest way since the rail is loose is to slide the hacksaw blade use your drill with an adapter to spin the bolt while applying pressure on the hacksaw blade against the bolt. Less of a chance of causing damage to the table or making things more difficult for him by drilling the bolt off center and then really needing help to get it out. Then it will be much easier to get the captive nuts out of the rails and replaced when you flip the rail upside down on the bench and work on it with more access than upside down under the table
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Most decent hack saws have a setting to put the blade on at 45 degrees. I had this exact thing happen to my GC3. The bolt seized on the way out, so yes the rail was already a little loose. I tapped a wooden wedge between the slate and the rail, slid a hacksaw blade in there and then put my hacksaw handle on and cut it off in approximately one minute.

JC
 
reverend said:
In most of the GC3 tables I have worked on they have the left insert in them. The only GC3 tables that I have seen that have the right inserts are the very early GC3s that also have the T-straps on the ends of the rails that the corner castings attach to.
The floating inserts are installed perpendicular to the rails in narrow but deep cavities and are very secure. The inserts on the left which are the most common on GC3 tables are the problem inserts that will almost fold in half and spin in the cavities.

View attachment 398435

View attachment 398436
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I am heavily leaning towards trying to find someone locally who can replace the floating nuts (not the guy who installed the cloth). Man the table plays like crap right now. Before all of this bullshit the cushions (brunswick superspeed that I assume are original) seemed to have a good bounce.

A few questions:

If they are being taken off to replace the nuts anyways is it worth putting new rubber on just due to age?

Is classic billiards the best place to pick up these parts? If you guys sell them, i would appreciate some prices.

Also, if my table has the smaller nut plate can I replace them with the larger ones or are there issues with doing this?
 
caff3in3 said:
I am heavily leaning towards trying to find someone locally who can replace the floating nuts (not the guy who installed the cloth). Man the table plays like crap right now. Before all of this bullshit the cushions (brunswick superspeed that I assume are original) seemed to have a good bounce.

A few questions:

If they are being taken off to replace the nuts anyways is it worth putting new rubber on just due to age?

Is classic billiards the best place to pick up these parts? If you guys sell them, i would appreciate some prices.

Also, if my table has the smaller nut plate can I replace them with the larger ones or are there issues with doing this?
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Here's the problem, if you can't find someone in your area to do better work than the last guy, why on earth do you want to make the problem even worse by having the cushion's replaced? You might just be better off shipping your rails to someone that knows what they're doing instead of dealing with those rails and the idiot's that work on them posing as pool table mechanic's.
 
realkingcobra said:
Here's the problem, if you can't find someone in your area to do better work than the last guy, why on earth do you want to make the problem even worse by having the cushion's replaced? You might just be better off shipping your rails to someone that knows what they're doing instead of dealing with those rails and the idiot's that work on them posing as pool table mechanic's.
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Good point.

If money wasn't an issue I would definitely ship to have them done. As it is now I am selling my cue to cover the cost of what I can have done locally - shipping would eat up almost all of that - I checked a quote on fexex and ups and it would be over $200 one direction as the cheapest option.


Just a thought - are there inserts I could have mounted on the rail instead of in it, leave the ones inside the rails where they are for now and just remove them if/when I have the cushions replaced a few years from now? I am confident I can get the rails of myself and could find a master carpenter to do the work.
 
caff3in3 said:
Good point.

If money wasn't an issue I would definitely ship to have them done. As it is now I am selling my cue to cover the cost of what I can have done locally - shipping would eat up almost all of that - I checked a quote on fexex and ups and it would be over $200 one direction as the cheapest option.


Just a thought - are there inserts I could have mounted on the rail instead of in it, leave the ones inside the rails where they are for now and just remove them if/when I have the cushions replaced a few years from now? I am confident I can get the rails of myself and could find a master carpenter to do the work.
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Other than counter sinking some wood screw mounted nut plates and using short rail bolts, because normal length rail bolts are going to run up against the capture nuts already in the rails, no, not that don't require removing the rail cloth and cushions. Once the factory cushions have been removed, they're not going to remount correctly as most of them come off ripping either the back canvas off, or removing wood with them.
 
http://www.mcmaster.com/#inserts-for-wood/=za5joc

You could try using self-tapping wood inserts.

The high-strength hex drive style are the most preferred, but they are too long for your application. You could try cutting them down, but there are no guarantees on the reliability of that fix.

The slotted drive style are more difficult to install, as they have a tendency to break. Though, they are available in the length that you need.

The standard hex drive style can be somewhat difficult to install, and they have a tendency to loosen up. Though, they are also available in the length that you need.

If you go this route, you'll have to use shorter bolts, to ensure that they don't collide with the embedded inserts. You should be able to find these at your local hardware store, if you want to see them up close.
 
realkingcobra said:
Other than counter sinking some wood screw mounted nut plates and using short rail bolts, because normal length rail bolts are going to run up against the capture nuts already in the rails, no, not that don't require removing the rail cloth and cushions. Once the factory cushions have been removed, they're not going to remount correctly as most of them come off ripping either the back canvas off, or removing wood with them.
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Thanks guys.

I believe I have a good path to get the table playable until I can get it properly fixed.
 
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