Reyes clearly the best ever

Any doubt I had about Efren being the best ever were erased at the 2004 DCC, when I lost a C-note on Shannon Daulton in a tournement bank pool match against Efren. Efren played some of the best bank pool I've ever seen. I firmly believe that Efren can master any cue game he chooses to the point of being clearly the best (excluding 9Ball, which, like Billy stated, is almost a breaking contest at the top level). From conversations with a friend who has known Efren for years, it is pretty clear that Efren doesn't have the type of ego to play a particular game (e.g. 14.1) just to be the best at it. His thing is to provide for his extended family in the P.I., play as much chess as he can, and try to keep pool in perspective. Remember the scene in The Hustler where Eddie beats the guy at 3-cushion billiards even though he'd never played before? I can picture Efren doing the same thing to champions in snooker or 3-cushion or banks or whatever. Put enough money on the line and he would learn all the moves pronto. and proceed to outsmart and outplay the other guy. He's a true one-of-a-kind whose level of skills we may never see again.
 
sixpack said:
Yep, good points. The only reason I was saying that golf is harder to dominate is because there are so many more bona fide pros and more people trying to become pros because of the money.

As for Jack and Arnie. They are great players no doubt, and Arnie used to hit the ball 300+ yards back then, with that equipment so he would be a monster with today's equipment.

I have thought about this extensively and studied old tapes and accounts of those players and even though they are great, the only one who compares with Tiger in determination, preparation and mental focus was Ben Hogan.

Hogan didn't hit the ball particularly far, but he was the purest, most consistent ball striker probably ever. With today's equipment leveling the field a little, I think Ben Hogan would have dominated his era even more and would probably provide some legendary battles with Tiger if they were in their prime together.

Another player who got a lot out of his game that would have benefited very much from today's equipment is Lee Trevino. In terms of mindset, he was IMO better than Tiger, but he was outgunned by sheer ability by Jack and some of the others in his day. If Lee Trevino was able to hit the long ball with today's equipment, he might have been higher on the list too. In those days, Lee was hitting it 235-250 off the tee and Jack was hitting it close to 300 sometimes. If they both used today's gear, Jack would have been hitting 300 and Lee would have been hitting 280. Coming in with an 8 to Jack's wedge instead of a 4 to Jack's 8. Huge difference.

Cheers,
RC

Trevino was the best shot maker ever IMO. Jack was one of the first to combine power and the high floating accurate shots. Courses were starting to lengthen then.
Another great that has to be included is Byron Nelson. If he could play with todays equipment and have the drive he would be tough on Tiger.

Golf has always been similar to pool that guys dominate it or are on top for brief periods. The ones like Tiger, Jack, Hogan, Palmer are special.
Johnny Miller might have played the best golf ever in 73-74 but Jack raised up and stayed with him. Miller was lights out during that time.

Not being able to match your opponnet or defend against them IMO makes pool the tougher sport. Golf, IMO is the tougher game to play.
 
I bet Efren can get backed to play any billiards game. Maybe not for 100,000 3 cushion against Blomdahl but I bet he could get staked easily to play multi thousand dollars sessions. Who else in the WORLD has that type of credit?
 
Spots

Frankie Hernandez may be considered a pro player. Orcullo gave him the six at Masters and beat him.
 
frankncali said:
Not being able to match your opponent or defend against them IMO makes pool the tougher sport. Golf, IMO is the tougher game to play.

I also think that pool is more difficult to dominate than golf for these reasons, and also because if Tiger gets the lowest score he beats everyone else, but with the tournament format in pool you have to beat player after player, match after match, and if just one guy gets hot on you or gets the rolls, you lose. Varner won 8 out of 16 pro tournaments in 1989, the best year anyone has ever had, and as great as he was playing he had to get tremendously lucky a number of times to pull that off.
 
Dang ,nobody challeneged wincardona`s assertions/proclamations.No drama is created, I am not having any fun here and I am going to a different site for the entertainment.
 
If they set up a match with Efren against any of the top 3-C guys like Sayginer, Caudron, Sanchez, Blomdahl,etc...I'm betting on the 3-C guys until I'm broke. Caudron at balk line would have to be a heavy favorite also. I don't think people who haven't watched a lot of three cushion realize just how far these guys have taken the game. Averages over two for a whole tournement? Efren would be more than the best ever, he'd be worthy of his own church if he started winning major tourneys at carom games.

Same thing if he went to England and snapped of a snooker tourney at the Crucible...those guys are just too damn good at the game for someone who doesn't play the game regularly to beat.

I might not bet against Efren against any of the top US players at carom games today (Sang Lee would of taken his money, though) but anyone who has seen Blomdahl in top gear can attest that Efren would have to play better than his recent one pocket matches to have a chance in the long run. He beat Blomdahl in a set I think once, but Torbjorn beat Efren at nine ball.

Efren at 14.1 is the most interesting idea to me...he ran 141 on an Accu-Stats tape after just learning the game and it looks like he could of gone on forever if he really wanted to.
 
frankncali said:
Trevino was the best shot maker ever IMO. Jack was one of the first to combine power and the high floating accurate shots. Courses were starting to lengthen then.
Another great that has to be included is Byron Nelson. If he could play with todays equipment and have the drive he would be tough on Tiger.

Golf has always been similar to pool that guys dominate it or are on top for brief periods. The ones like Tiger, Jack, Hogan, Palmer are special.
Johnny Miller might have played the best golf ever in 73-74 but Jack raised up and stayed with him. Miller was lights out during that time.

Not being able to match your opponnet or defend against them IMO makes pool the tougher sport. Golf, IMO is the tougher game to play.


Good points all. I agree about Trevino. And yes, Byron Nelson would definitely have to be included. I don't know how I forgot him :)

Cheers,
RC
 
vagabond said:
Dang ,nobody challeneged wincardona`s assertions/proclamations.No drama is created, I am not having any fun here and I am going to a different site for the entertainment.

Yes, but this site is free, and that site is $24.95 a month.
 
bud green said:
If they set up a match with Efren against any of the top 3-C guys like Sayginer, Caudron, Sanchez, Blomdahl,etc...I'm betting on the 3-C guys until I'm broke. Caudron at balk line would have to be a heavy favorite also. I don't think people who haven't watched a lot of three cushion realize just how far these guys have taken the game. Averages over two for a whole tournement? Efren would be more than the best ever, he'd be worthy of his own church if he started winning major tourneys at carom games.

Same thing if he went to England and snapped of a snooker tourney at the Crucible...those guys are just too damn good at the game for someone who doesn't play the game regularly to beat.

I might not bet against Efren against any of the top US players at carom games today (Sang Lee would of taken his money, though) but anyone who has seen Blomdahl in top gear can attest that Efren would have to play better than his recent one pocket matches to have a chance in the long run. He beat Blomdahl in a set I think once, but Torbjorn beat Efren at nine ball.

Efren at 14.1 is the most interesting idea to me...he ran 141 on an Accu-Stats tape after just learning the game and it looks like he could of gone on forever if he really wanted to.

Absolutely right. My only point though is that Efren could probably get staked easily just to play those guys. No one said anything about winning tournaments. But I bet anything that Efren and Blohmdahl in the same room that Bata would have no problem getting backed to play some for a couple hundred to a thousand. Who else would even put a "pool" player in the box and try. Only Efren has that aura where people would bet that he an overcome the nuts. And he might.

It seems as though each time one of these threads comes up that more and more Efren stories pop up.

There is no reason at all to think that Efren wouldn't have been as good or better than Ronnie O'Sullivan, or Hendry or Davis, had he started on that game. Or that he wouldn't have been the greatest Three Cushion player in the world had he focused on that game.

Conversely there is no reason to think that Blohmdahl might not have become the world's greatest pool player if he had decided to pursue that path.
 
vagabond said:
Dang ,nobody challeneged wincardona`s assertions/proclamations.No drama is created, I am not having any fun here and I am going to a different site for the entertainment.

Well....... I was going to ask how on Earth Grady could be left off the list ......and then I realized there is no list. :-)
 
Efren gave King Kong (Bernardo Chavez) the 7,8 and break an whizzed right through him. Bernardo isn't a top pro but definitely a pro. Efren gave Marshall Jung the 6 out and lost a set maybe, but in Marshall's own words it could have gone either way. Marshall plays better than Bernardo, not by a lot, but has beaten many top pros in tournaments. Reyes will surprise you.

Danny
 
Reyes is the best, but I have the 92 legends of 1 pocket IV where shannon puts the woop ass on him! Best dvd ever. Its nice to see Efren lose a 1 pocket match every blue moon :)
 
derekdisco said:
Reyes is the best, but I have the 92 legends of 1 pocket IV where shannon puts the woop ass on him! Best dvd ever. Its nice to see Efren lose a 1 pocket match every blue moon :)

While that was a great match, Efren had a couple of shots that were just absolutely crazy. On one of them when he was ahead in the game, even the commentator (maybe Incardona?) mentioned that Efren had to put forth effort just to sell out. It looked as though he took the ONLY shot that could be advantageous for Daulton. Very strange.

Ryan
 
I saw this thread too late after a thousand replies, but here goes my opinion anyway :)

Many people fail to realize how great Efren is in this prespective:

Most of Efren's accomplishments are recorded in America (or for the most part, after he made his move to American in '85.) People don't realize that he accomplished far more in the Philippines and Asia prior...and did it for years and years in his country that breeds top caliber players.

Let's not also forget that Efren, when he played Snooker and Carom seriously to play in major tournaments, was also one of the best in the world in both. If he only played Snooker or only played Carom, he'd set records for fastest break or longest run. He won major titles in both. How many other poolplayers has that on their resume?

I think also in this prespective, Efren was one of a kind when he was coming up. He didn't learn to play pool from other Efren-like players the way Americans learned from Mosconi or Buddy Hall. Efren set the tone for the whole world and elevated the level of pool play that makes all players better today--the same way what Michael Jordan did for basketball and Babe Ruth for baseball. Efren just revolutionized the game for the world.

I think any poolplayer alive today should give some praise to have witnessed this rare prize player because he is a gift to us all. The day that Efren departs from us will be the saddest day in Pool/Billiard history.

Having said that, I bet numberous other AZB posters has said all this, so please forgive me for reiterating. I just wanted to contribute my two cents to help Efren rightly claim his position as the greatest player ever.

Peace.
 
In pool you don't have to even get a turn if you lag or flip wrong and there isn't any other game like that, and untill Tiger beats Jack's records for majors he's not the best golfer. On the other hand Efren is the mac-daddy of the pool table followed closely by Earl the Pearl. IMHO

Leonard
 
Most of Efren's accomplishments are recorded in America (or for the most part, after he made his move to American in '85.) People don't realize that he accomplished far more in the Philippines and Asia prior...and did it for years and years in his country that breeds top caliber players.


Efren didn't really accomplish much before he joined the tour here.
All he did was in money matches around the Manila area.
Asian and Philippine titles do not compare to what he accomplished from 1994 and on. 4 US Open final appearances in a row, WPC title, World 8-ball and so on.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Most of Efren's accomplishments are recorded in America (or for the most part, after he made his move to American in '85.) People don't realize that he accomplished far more in the Philippines and Asia prior...and did it for years and years in his country that breeds top caliber players.


Efren didn't really accomplish much before he joined the tour here.
All he did was in money matches around the Manila area.
Asian and Philippine titles do not compare to what he accomplished from 1994 and on. 4 US Open final appearances in a row, WPC title, World 8-ball and so on.

Yeah, in the Philippines Efren is just another guy :-) Even Porkchop beats him.

Lucky for us US Immigration doesn't accept passports with just "Porkchop" on it.....

I think the real reason Efren is the greatest pool player alive and possibly ever is because pretty all the top Pros look up to him and list him as their idol. He doesn't have the WPC record of Johnny and Earl, or the US Open record of Earl. But what Efren has is that magic that makes him seem superhuman.
 
John Barton said:
Lucky for us US Immigration doesn't accept passports with just "Porkchop" on it.....

LOL, maybe next year we will be taking about how to properly pronounce "Porkchop" in Filipino accent.

shinobi said:
Indeed, I am not looking forward to that day.

As long as billiards event is not part of the Olympics, Efren will be playing until kingdom come.
 
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