Reyes clearly the best ever

wincardona said:
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.
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Billy, I based my opinion on more than just shot making. Ronnie had a unique ability to "read" the pack, to kick multiple rails with accuracy, to play off angle combinations, to find hidden billiards, to move creatively and most of all Ronnie could handle any bet and any situation. He knew how to take control of a match. And his conversation before, during and after a match was unequaled in pool history.

Efren is a GREAT pool player, but I truly believe the Ronnie of 25-30 years ago would have worn Efren out. He just had too many weapons at his disposal and a gift for gab that would put anyone off their best game. How did you like matching up with, and then playing Ronnie? Not a lot of fun was it? You were one of the smart ones, leaving him alone for the most part. Am I right or wrong?
 
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jay helfert said:
Billy, I based my opinion on more than just shot making. Ronnie had a unique ability to "read" the pack, to kick multiple rails with accuracy, to play off angle combinations, to find hidden billiards, to move creatively and most of all Ronnie could handle any bet and any situation. He knew how to take control of a match. And his conversation before, during and after a match was unequaled in pool history.
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Sounds like Effie to me, except for the conversations... :p
 
Terry Ardeno said:
Very strong post that I agree with 100%.
Re: the One pocket G.O.A.T., I had 1 Reyes, 2 Allen 3 Fitzpatrick, just as you said.
Re: Best overall, I also had Reyes #1 and Varner 2nd. But my point here is not to piggy-back, it's to say that it was very, very close in some catagories. I came very close to putting DeOro in at #2 and Varner 3 but gave Nick the nod with his WCs won vs tougher fields than DeOro faced.
I also struggled with putting Daulton in at around 9th on the all time best over all list, but I was careful not to let the fact that he's one of my very favorite players cloud my choice.

My comments on Billy's post is that I also agree that Reyes can give Joyner the 10-8 spot but RA couldn't (wouldn't) spot Champagne 9-8.
That very nicely shows that RA vs the best in HIS era was a lot closer than Efren vs the best of HIS era.

There is a much bigger gap between Efren and his rivals than there were between RA and his.
Also I believe there are many more killer one pocket players now than there were 30 years ago. So many more players are playing 1P today than ever before.

Again, these are my very favorite posts, the comparisions of the greats to one another. I appreciate everybody who has posted their opinion.
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Sorry to be so disagreeable guys, but I think Eddie Kelly was a better player than Cliff Joyner. Nothing against Cliff, he has a big game, but Kelly was something to see, the smoothest stroke ever, he looked like poetry in motion when he played. He was so graceful, a true artist at pool, painting portraits on the table as he glided around, with the cue ball as his brush.

Don't ever make the mistake of under rating this guy. He was brilliant at all games, the undisputed All Around champion of the world for a good ten years. NO ONE would play him a match of 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. I'm not just throwing out a name when I say Eddie Kelly. He was a great pool player, in an era with many excellent players.

I love Efren's game, but if he had come over here during Kelly's peak years and tried him an All Around contest, he would have gone down...HARD! I don't doubt that if Efren had applied himself, he could have been an excellent 14.1 player, but he never had to.

One reminder, Kelly came out of a ten year retirement to play in Grady's big One Pocket event in Reno in 1992. There were over 100 players and it was the strongest field ever assembled at that time. All the big guns were there. With a couple weeks of intermittent practice under his belt, Kelly went on the win in an amazing display of One Pocket expertise. The final match with Cornbread should have been preserved on film, it was that good. One of the best matches I ever witnessed, two old veterans playing out their last hurrah!

Cliff was there too, watching in awe as Kelly maneuvered "whitey" in and out of tight quarters, and never hit a bad shot in nine games. He played error free pool against a tough opponent who gave him every opportunity to dog it. In a word, Eddie Kelly, circa 1992, was still SUPERB!

By the way, Ronnie DID give Kelly 9-8 and beat him! I watched it. He couldn't give him 8-7 though, and when they played 9-8, 8-7 they broke even twice that I know of. No one would play Ronnie even back then! Only Kelly and Jersey Red tried him with 9-8 and both lost.
 
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John Barton said:
Yeah, in the Philippines Efren is just another guy :-) Even Porkchop beats him.

Lucky for us US Immigration doesn't accept passports with just "Porkchop" on it.....

I think the real reason Efren is the greatest pool player alive and possibly ever is because pretty all the top Pros look up to him and list him as their idol. He doesn't have the WPC record of Johnny and Earl, or the US Open record of Earl. But what Efren has is that magic that makes him seem superhuman.
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Same goes for snooker ace Jimmy White, as I recall when I was new some snookies said he hasn't win big enough but he's still the hero..beats the world..
 
west coast groupy

jay helfert said:
Billy, I based my opinion on more than just shot making. Ronnie had a unique ability to "read" the pack, to kick multiple rails with accuracy, to play off angle combinations, to find hidden billiards, to move creatively and most of all Ronnie could handle any bet and any situation. He knew how to take control of a match. And his conversation before, during and after a match was unequaled in pool history.

Efren is a GREAT pool player, but I truly believe the Ronnie of 25-30 years ago would have worn Efren out. He just had too many weapons at his disposal and a gift for gab that would put anyone off their best game. How did you like matching up with, and then playing Ronnie? Not a lot of fun was it? You were one of the smart ones, leaving him alone for the most part. Am I right or wrong?
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Your absolutely wrong.I matched up with Ronnie many times and won just about every time. I gave him 8 to 6 playing one hole and he shot with one hand I won. He gave me the break playing 6 ball I won easily. I gave him the last 2 and a game on the wire racing to 10 and won three straight times.He gave me 9 to 7 playing one hole and we played maybe 4 or 5 times and it was close.I was around 25 years old when I played him one pocket and wasn't playing anywhere near my best one pocket.But yet Reyes can give Frost 10 to 7 and win now. Now based on that ,what do you think??
 
half right

jay helfert said:
Sorry to be so disagreeable guys, but I think Eddie Kelly was a better player than Cliff Joyner. Nothing against Cliff, he has a big game, but Kelly was something to see, the smoothest stroke ever, he looked like poetry in motion when he played. He was so graceful, a true artist at pool, painting portraits on the table as he glided around, with the cue ball as his brush.

Don't ever make the mistake of under rating this guy. He was brilliant at all games, the undisputed All Around champion of the world for a good ten years. NO ONE would play him a match of 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. I'm not just throwing out a name when I say Eddie Kelly. He was a great pool player, in an era with many excellent players.

I love Efren's game, but if he had come over here during Kelly's peak years and tried him an All Around contest, he would have gone down...HARD! I don't doubt that if Efren had applied himself, he could have been an excellent 14.1 player, but he never had to.

One reminder, Kelly came out of a ten year retirement to play in Grady's big One Pocket event in Reno in 1992. There were over 100 players and it was the strongest field ever assembled at that time. All the big guns were there. With a couple weeks of intermittent practice under his belt, Kelly went on the win in an amazing display of One Pocket expertise. The final match with Cornbread should have been preserved on film, it was that good. One of the best matches I ever witnessed, two old veterans playing out their last hurrah!

Cliff was there too, watching in awe as Kelly maneuvered "whitey" in and out of tight quarters, and never hit a bad shot in nine games. He played error free pool against a tough opponent who gave him every opportunity to dog it. In a word, Eddie Kelly, circa 1992, was still SUPERB!

By the way, Ronnie did give Kelly 9-8 and beat him! I watched it. He couldn't give him 8-7 though, and when they played 9-8, 8-7 they broke even twice that I know of. No one would play Ronnie even back then! Only Kelly and Jersey Red tried him with 9-8 and both lost.
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You are right about Kelly being a better player than Joyner playing one hole,and also right when you said he was the best all around player in the world at that time. But Ronnie lost more than he won giving Kelly 9 to 8. I'm not saying that Ronnie never beat Kelly 9 to 8 ,he did ,but Kelly won more often. Kelly could not beat Reyes playing hole or 9 ball,maybe straight pool ,only because he knew the game much better than Reyes. So if you would substitute straight pool and put bank pool in the all around,Reyes could possibly sweep.
 
Willy Mosconi would have challenged Efren in any of the games, had he played them. He considered all games other than straight pool "trick games".

He was extremely competitive and stubborn, but one pool playing s.o.b. As is noted in the recent book "The Hustler and the Champ", Mosconi was in on a joke played by Toots Shor on Jackie Gleason, who was a top amateur player. Mosconi ran 70 right handed and then finished with 30 left handed.

I believe that if he played the other games he might have been as good as Efren, who knows?
 
Just a question. Do any of the top three cushion players play Balkline?

Jamison

wincardona said:
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.
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jay helfert said:
Sorry to be so disagreeable guys, but I think Eddie Kelly was a better player than Cliff Joyner. Nothing against Cliff, he has a big game, but Kelly was something to see, the smoothest stroke ever, he looked like poetry in motion when he played. He was so graceful, a true artist at pool, painting portraits on the table as he glided around, with the cue ball as his brush.

Don't ever make the mistake of under rating this guy. He was brilliant at all games, the undisputed All Around champion of the world for a good ten years. NO ONE would play him a match of 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. I'm not just throwing out a name when I say Eddie Kelly. He was a great pool player, in an era with many excellent players.

I love Efren's game, but if he had come over here during Kelly's peak years and tried him an All Around contest, he would have gone down...HARD! I don't doubt that if Efren had applied himself, he could have been an excellent 14.1 player, but he never had to.

One reminder, Kelly came out of a ten year retirement to play in Grady's big One Pocket event in Reno in 1992. There were over 100 players and it was the strongest field ever assembled at that time. All the big guns were there. With a couple weeks of intermittent practice under his belt, Kelly went on the win in an amazing display of One Pocket expertise. The final match with Cornbread should have been preserved on film, it was that good. One of the best matches I ever witnessed, two old veterans playing out their last hurrah!

Cliff was there too, watching in awe as Kelly maneuvered "whitey" in and out of tight quarters, and never hit a bad shot in nine games. He played error free pool against a tough opponent who gave him every opportunity to dog it. In a word, Eddie Kelly, circa 1992, was still SUPERB!

By the way, Ronnie DID give Kelly 9-8 and beat him! I watched it. He couldn't give him 8-7 though, and when they played 9-8, 8-7 they broke even twice that I know of. No one would play Ronnie even back then! Only Kelly and Jersey Red tried him with 9-8 and both lost.
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Jay,
I would never think that Cliff was a better player than Ed Kelly. Here's a link to my recent "All time" lists...I have Ed Kelly listed as the 5th best over-all / all-around player ever. Cliff is nowhere to be found on that lists....http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=893090#post893090
My point with the comparision to RA was that there is a bigger gap between Efren and HIS rivals than there was between RA and his contemporaries.
I think Cliff MAY be a little stronger than Kelly in pocket, but that's a close call, pretty much "push" for me. 1P is Cliff's specialty and really the only game he excels at. Kelly crushes him in 9 ball and destroys him in 14.1 Ed Kelly was a very exceptional talent in all the games.
 
wincardona said:
Your absolutely wrong.I matched up with Ronnie many times and won just about every time. I gave him 8 to 6 playing one hole and he shot with one hand I won. He gave me the break playing 6 ball I won easily. I gave him the last 2 and a game on the wire racing to 10 and won three straight times.He gave me 9 to 7 playing one hole and we played maybe 4 or 5 times and it was close.I was around 25 years old when I played him one pocket and wasn't playing anywhere near my best one pocket.But yet Reyes can give Frost 10 to 7 and win now. Now based on that ,what do you think??
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Somehow I'm not too surprised. I just didn't know how many times you played Ronnie. I did see him give you 9-7 one time, in Vegas I think. I think you broke even that time. If you beat him giving up 8-6 and he played One Handed, you did something there. And giving up the break in 6 Ball was a gaff he taught me.

All I know, is that you had a record like the Globetrotters when it came to gambling for about 20 years. I just never heard of anyone beating you. Oh, except for me and your gaff lines you made at the tournaments. I could usually find one match you handicapped bad. Ha Ha. You pulled me up in Kentucky and said no more action for me. :)
 
wincardona said:
You are right about Kelly being a better player than Joyner playing one hole,and also right when you said he was the best all around player in the world at that time. But Ronnie lost more than he won giving Kelly 9 to 8. I'm not saying that Ronnie never beat Kelly 9 to 8 ,he did ,but Kelly won more often. Kelly could not beat Reyes playing hole or 9 ball,maybe straight pool ,only because he knew the game much better than Reyes. So if you would substitute straight pool and put bank pool in the all around,Reyes could possibly sweep.
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I have to disagree here. I think Ronnie got the best of Kelly at 9-8. They both seemed to agree that Kelly couldn't win at that game. At 9-8, 10-8 Kelly could win. I was wrong about 9-8 and 8-7. I don't think Ronnie ever played Kelly that way.

I wouldn't make Kelly a big dog against Efren at One Pocket. A small dog yes. And at 9-Ball, it would have been close as well. At 14.1 Kelly would have to be the favorite. So it is probably a closer match up then I stated. You win that bet too. So you're 2-1 against me on the net, but as long as you keep betting against Shane I'll be all right "live". I really did think his match with Alcano was a toss up in the Finals, but once Shane beats a guy, he is always confident he can do it again.

Fatboy always talks to me before he makes a bet, and his last line is "Who would you bet on if you were forced to bet"? I told him that it wouldn't always be so easy to win with you, and he better be prepared to lose a few too. He appreciates the action though and is anxious to match up with you himself. "Caveat Emptor" is all I have to say about that.
 
Danny Kuykendal said:
Willy Mosconi would have challenged Efren in any of the games, had he played them. He considered all games other than straight pool "trick games".

He was extremely competitive and stubborn, but one pool playing s.o.b. As is noted in the recent book "The Hustler and the Champ", Mosconi was in on a joke played by Toots Shor on Jackie Gleason, who was a top amateur player. Mosconi ran 70 right handed and then finished with 30 left handed.

I believe that if he played the other games he might have been as good as Efren, who knows?
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Aside form the fact that Efren has been one of the dominant champions at everything from One Pocket to 9-Ball to Balkline billiards, and Mosconi only dominated one discipline of the game, you have Mosconi's narrow mindedness toward pool itself. Mosconi not only thoroughly disdained everything about the whole action side of the game, he apparently even disliked the game itself, and was in it for only two reasons: money first and his competitive spirit second.

Efren, on the other hand, is obviously fond of both sides of pool's culture (tournaments & action), and is deservedly revered by fans from both camps. Now mix that with his lovable humility... you don't just have a champion, you have a very rare presence.
 
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Cliff just shook his head!

I attended the one-pocket tournament in Dallas and had a chance to talk to Cliff Joyner about Efren. Now Cliff is no slouch when it comes to one pocket. I asked him about his opinion of Efren's one pocket game. He looked at me and smiled and just shook his head. He did not want to talk about that topic. Efren has to be the greatest all around players that has ever lived. Probably, if he had gotten emersed in straight pool and had won some world class tournaments, there would be no need to even reply to your post. Because no one would disagree.
 
Can't argue with Efren's presence at the table versus Mosconi's. Enough can't be said about his attitude and "art" at the table.

However, even watching Willie play 30 years ago against Fats in nine ball when he was 65 and retired, he had terrific cue ball control and shot making ability.

All you can say now, though is that Willie would have won in straight pool, and because of his lack of knowledge of other games, especially one pocket Efren would have to have an edge.

Danny
 
Have to agree with Billy regarding Efren. It's even noted in the new book "The Hustler and the Champ" that Ronnie and Kelly both were busted playing Fats giving up 9-7.

Efren could probably give Fats, what 10-6 and the break? I would sure have bet on Efren in that game.

Danny
 
Snoogi said:
Same goes for snooker ace Jimmy White, as I recall when I was new some snookies said he hasn't win big enough but he's still the hero..beats the world..
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I know it's an often used phrase but he really was the best player never to win the World Championship. He had his chances (6 finals IIRC) but never pulled it off. Shame, he had so much natural talent but not enough bottle.
 
Longest post ever

I just can't believe that you all think that Willie Mosconi couldn't play nine ball or one hole. Really, the game of straight pool on a ten footer with 3.75" pockets is at least 50 times harder than nine ball on a nine footer. Not to mention Willie Mosconi used to shoot up towards 90% of his runs in the bottom corners. This for me negates the possibility that his one pocket skills were lacking.

Quick story about Willie Mosconi before he ever won any of his championships and Ponzy ruled the world.
So this guy walks up to Ponzy and says I would like to play some nine ball for $1,000 (modern cash worth $12,064 and 33 cents) a game. Remember this is in the late 20's early 30's when the game (9 balls) was first starting to be played. So ponzy says I'm eating how about you play this kid here. Not everyone knew Willie Mosconi at the time. The stranger says sure and they lag (on a ten footer with little pockets) Willie wins the lag and breaks 11 games in a row. Stops shooting and tells the guy look you need to stop Sir. I will never miss at an easy game like nine ball. The guy says but, you have not seen me shoot yet. The whole room laughs at him as Ponzy says and we never will if you keep trying that kid in such an easy game. Willie did not finish well in that tourney. He wasn't good enough yet:eek:

Now, just a observation in life. Everything is easier now, not just in pool but shopping, travel, football, basketball, golf, and everthing else I can think of. This list will never end will it? You should get my point.
Jamison

I don't remember who said it as rude as it was. (I would like to forget.) That Willie Mosconi only played for cash and his competitive nature. Did you ever see footage of him playing in his early years? Before he had been subject to know it all pool players. He could give 200 no count left handed from the grave to most modern players. He knew nothing else from a little boy on remember his first exhibition was before he was 10. Efren's lucky he can't speak english very well. I wonder how many times he could say sniper tips and 19 oz before he went postal.

I just can't believe this is where we are now.

Did you know when Willie Mosconi retired the first time. He held every single record in pocket billiards?

See pocket billiards is recorded real funny. There was a player named De' Ore in the late 1800's early 1900's that held a world championship title in one cue sport or another for something like 50 years straight. They erased him and replaced him much like you all are trying to do for Efren Reyes.

They are both great talents not to be compared. You can not forget the past to make way for the future. Efren's probably the best cue sportsmen alive from what I have read about him. To say greatest ever is making a mockery of our sport. How about just saying of anyone alive playing cue sports he has the greatest record for win vs. losses. Is this true???

I think the Mr. Mosconi you saw was bitter because he saw the future of pool and he knew that being popular and had very little to do with sports.

How about Mr. 100? He doesn't even rate in your greatest players of all time.
Jamison
 
We are living in an age where access on everything is easy. We are "global"
now so to speak, that's why we see champions from all corners of the earth
competing. I can't say the same back in the Roaring 20's. It seems that
everything evolves around the US back then, didn't pay much attention to
the other nations.

Willie Mosconi was a great player, but saying Efren couldn't hold a candle is
pretty much hogwash, and vice-versa. These mythical match-ups will only
happen in our dreams, or maybe PS 2, X-Box or even Wii.

Let's just enjoy these great players' accomplishments and be thankful that
we get to witness their greatness in our lifetime, that is if you're old enough
to see the great Mosconi play...
 
gopi-1 said:
We are living in an age where access on everything is easy. We are "global"
now so to speak, that's why we see champions from all corners of the earth
competing. I can't say the same back in the Roaring 20's. It seems that
everything evolves around the US back then, didn't pay much attention to
the other nations.

Willie Mosconi was a great player, but saying Efren couldn't hold a candle is
pretty much hogwash, and vice-versa. These mythical match-ups will only
happen in our dreams, or maybe PS 2, X-Box or even Wii.

Let's just enjoy these great players' accomplishments and be thankful that
we get to witness their greatness in our lifetime, that is if you're old enough
to see the great Mosconi play...
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Well said. These discussions happen in all sports & we'll never be able to know how it could've turned out. That's the beauty of it, and the curse. We are fortunate to witness greatness, our imaginations & wishes keep us wondering "what if?"
 
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