Reyes clearly the best ever

gopi-1 said:
We are living in an age where access on everything is easy. We are "global"
now so to speak, that's why we see champions from all corners of the earth
competing. I can't say the same back in the Roaring 20's. It seems that
everything evolves around the US back then, didn't pay much attention to
the other nations.

Willie Mosconi was a great player, but saying Efren couldn't hold a candle is
pretty much hogwash, and vice-versa. These mythical match-ups will only
happen in our dreams, or maybe PS 2, X-Box or even Wii.

Let's just enjoy these great players' accomplishments and be thankful that
we get to witness their greatness in our lifetime, that is if you're old enough
to see the great Mosconi play...
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I will give you this there was not as many players in that era, Thing is I don't see how this makes any difference in a solitary sport such as pocket billiards it's mostly about making balls in a hole. Well at least that is how they used to play before defense took over. Much easier than making the ball just bump it to a rail.

Efren is the greatest player playing today!!! Does this work? I hope you didn't think I meant he had no chance. I have only watched him kick balls I have never watched Efren play a whole match. I fast foward to the times when he is hooked he constantly kicks safe or kicks out. It is amazing to say the least.

Jamison
 
JamisonNeu said:
I just can't believe that you all think that Willie Mosconi couldn't play nine ball or one hole. Really, the game of straight pool on a ten footer with 3.75" pockets is at least 50 times harder than nine ball on a nine footer. Not to mention Willie Mosconi used to shoot up towards 90% of his runs in the bottom corners. This for me negates the possibility that his one pocket skills were lacking.

Quick story about Willie Mosconi before he ever won any of his championships and Ponzy ruled the world.
So this guy walks up to Ponzy and says I would like to play some nine ball for $1,000 (modern cash worth $12,064 and 33 cents) a game. Remember this is in the late 20's early 30's when the game (9 balls) was first starting to be played. So ponzy says I'm eating how about you play this kid here. Not everyone knew Willie Mosconi at the time. The stranger says sure and they lag (on a ten footer with little pockets) Willie wins the lag and breaks 11 games in a row. Stops shooting and tells the guy look you need to stop Sir. I will never miss at an easy game like nine ball. The guy says but, you have not seen me shoot yet. The whole room laughs at him as Ponzy says and we never will if you keep trying that kid in such an easy game. Willie did not finish well in that tourney. He wasn't good enough yet:eek:

Now, just a observation in life. Everything is easier now, not just in pool but shopping, travel, football, basketball, golf, and everthing else I can think of. This list will never end will it? You should get my point.
Jamison

I don't remember who said it as rude as it was. (I would like to forget.) That Willie Mosconi only played for cash and his competitive nature. Did you ever see footage of him playing in his early years? Before he had been subject to know it all pool players. He could give 200 no count left handed from the grave to most modern players. He knew nothing else from a little boy on remember his first exhibition was before he was 10. Efren's lucky he can't speak english very well. I wonder how many times he could say sniper tips and 19 oz before he went postal.

I just can't believe this is where we are now.

Did you know when Willie Mosconi retired the first time. He held every single record in pocket billiards?

See pocket billiards is recorded real funny. There was a player named De' Ore in the late 1800's early 1900's that held a world championship title in one cue sport or another for something like 50 years straight. They erased him and replaced him much like you all are trying to do for Efren Reyes.

They are both great talents not to be compared. You can not forget the past to make way for the future. Efren's probably the best cue sportsmen alive from what I have read about him. To say greatest ever is making a mockery of our sport. How about just saying of anyone alive playing cue sports he has the greatest record for win vs. losses. Is this true???

I think the Mr. Mosconi you saw was bitter because he saw the future of pool and he knew that being popular and had very little to do with sports.

How about Mr. 100? He doesn't even rate in your greatest players of all time.
Jamison
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You bring up some very good points and it's so very difficult to compare players from different eras.
People have always tried to compare or determine how Ali would have fared with Tyson in boxing or Ali and Marciano it makes for good debate but unfortunately we will never know so I think the closest we could come is to take commentary from people who were fortunate enough to be alive when both were competing that's why I think we should accept the words of our older players such as Incardona, Freddy, Grady etc. The great debate will never end and we should never rewrite history. Philw
 
JamisonNeu said:
I just can't believe that you all think that Willie Mosconi couldn't play nine ball or one hole. Really, the game of straight pool on a ten footer with 3.75" pockets is at least 50 times harder than nine ball on a nine footer. Not to mention Willie Mosconi used to shoot up towards 90% of his runs in the bottom corners. This for me negates the possibility that his one pocket skills were lacking.

Quick story about Willie Mosconi before he ever won any of his championships and Ponzy ruled the world.
So this guy walks up to Ponzy and says I would like to play some nine ball for $1,000 (modern cash worth $12,064 and 33 cents) a game. Remember this is in the late 20's early 30's when the game (9 balls) was first starting to be played. So ponzy says I'm eating how about you play this kid here. Not everyone knew Willie Mosconi at the time. The stranger says sure and they lag (on a ten footer with little pockets) Willie wins the lag and breaks 11 games in a row. Stops shooting and tells the guy look you need to stop Sir. I will never miss at an easy game like nine ball. The guy says but, you have not seen me shoot yet. The whole room laughs at him as Ponzy says and we never will if you keep trying that kid in such an easy game. Willie did not finish well in that tourney. He wasn't good enough yet:eek:

Now, just a observation in life. Everything is easier now, not just in pool but shopping, travel, football, basketball, golf, and everthing else I can think of. This list will never end will it? You should get my point.
Jamison

I don't remember who said it as rude as it was. (I would like to forget.) That Willie Mosconi only played for cash and his competitive nature. Did you ever see footage of him playing in his early years? Before he had been subject to know it all pool players. He could give 200 no count left handed from the grave to most modern players. He knew nothing else from a little boy on remember his first exhibition was before he was 10. Efren's lucky he can't speak english very well. I wonder how many times he could say sniper tips and 19 oz before he went postal.

I just can't believe this is where we are now.

Did you know when Willie Mosconi retired the first time. He held every single record in pocket billiards?

See pocket billiards is recorded real funny. There was a player named De' Ore in the late 1800's early 1900's that held a world championship title in one cue sport or another for something like 50 years straight. They erased him and replaced him much like you all are trying to do for Efren Reyes.

They are both great talents not to be compared. You can not forget the past to make way for the future. Efren's probably the best cue sportsmen alive from what I have read about him. To say greatest ever is making a mockery of our sport. How about just saying of anyone alive playing cue sports he has the greatest record for win vs. losses. Is this true???

I think the Mr. Mosconi you saw was bitter because he saw the future of pool and he knew that being popular and had very little to do with sports.

How about Mr. 100? He doesn't even rate in your greatest players of all time.
Jamison
Click to expand...

Jamison,
That was a pretty interesting post. Good story on Ponzi and Mosconi as well.
For the record though, Frank Taberski holds several records that Mosconi does not, and with regards to Alfredo DeOro, I'm not sure what you mean by they erased him. He is still highly regarded by most pool historians.
 
Questions

When did Taberski play? Where? Which records are you talking about? I am almost positive that the year Mosconi first retired he held every record. I think the year was 1947 I could be wrong maybe it was when he was 47. How do I find a video of Frank Taberski playing?
Jamison

Terry Ardeno said:
Jamison,
That was a pretty interesting post. Good story on Ponzi and Mosconi as well.
For the record though, Frank Taberski holds several records that Mosconi does not, and with regards to Alfredo DeOro, I'm not sure what you mean by they erased him. He is still highly regarded by most pool historians.
Click to expand...
 
tight fit

jay helfert said:
I have to disagree here. I think Ronnie got the best of Kelly at 9-8. They both seemed to agree that Kelly couldn't win at that game. At 9-8, 10-8 Kelly could win. I was wrong about 9-8 and 8-7. I don't think Ronnie ever played Kelly that way.

I wouldn't make Kelly a big dog against Efren at One Pocket. A small dog yes. And at 9-Ball, it would have been close as well. At 14.1 Kelly would have to be the favorite. So it is probably a closer match up then I stated. You win that bet too. So you're 2-1 against me on the net, but as long as you keep betting against Shane I'll be all right "live". I really did think his match with Alcano was a toss up in the Finals, but once Shane beats a guy, he is always confident he can do it again.

Fatboy always talks to me before he makes a bet, and his last line is "Who would you bet on if you were forced to bet"? I told him that it wouldn't always be so easy to win with you, and he better be prepared to lose a few too. He appreciates the action though and is anxious to match up with you himself. "Caveat Emptor" is all I have to say about that.
Click to expand...

Jay, I believe Efren could give 8 to 7 to any player that ever played one pocket and win. All the great one pocket players,and we know who they WERE would need 10 to 8 for it to be a tough gamble. I know that there is no way that we will ever find out if thats true,but based on how easily he beat Joyner 8 to 7 one has to wonder how much weight Joyner really needed.I really believe Reyes can give Joyner 9/7,10/7 for it to be a tight fit.
 
chilli66 said:
Well said. These discussions happen in all sports & we'll never be able to know how it could've turned out.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think many people don't look at how the person dominated in their time. You may hear things like, "the pitchers throw harder today," "the fields are bigger now", etc.. If you look at some of the records before Babe Ruth, it is unbelievable how he shattered the records. Before he hit 29 homers, the previous record was 27. When he hit 54 homers in 1920, the person in second place hit 19!:eek: I have heard people say that Ruth would not be great today. I have even heard people say that he wouldn't even be able to play in the majors today. :confused: In my mind, Ruth is the greatest. I know some may disagree, but I know one thing for sure- he is a better pitcher then any of today's power hitters!
Back to pool. Mosconi dominated for a long time, and so did Greenleaf. Of course there were other players who could win, but people knew who was the best. It is really ashame that straight pool was, for the most part, the only game that these players competed in. I believe that Efren has to be considered the greatest player ever, because his play is all games is superb. Mostly playing one game really does hurt Mosconi's or Greenleaf's bid for greatest, but is it their fault? I do know one thing- these two would not have had problem competing with today's players. It may be more difficult today(it also may be easier with the superior equipment and knowledge), but their will to win would make Mosconi and Greenleaf both threats today. It is fun debating things like this, but we all know it is a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer.
 
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efren is a great player he have good things & bad things, I don't consider him the best player in the world tho he is, best rain kick shot. best one pocket. best rail safety shots. best 3 cushion player.

but he is not the best 9ball or 10ball player, not the best 8ball player, not the best 14.1 straight pool player. that been said I think he also too lucky sometimes in shots :P and he struggle a bit in the draw stroke (In my point of view)

thats totally my opinion some people my disaggree, cheers to all :D

-asbani!
 
asbani said:
efren is a great player he have good things & bad things, I don't consider him the best player in the world tho he is, best rain kick shot. best one pocket. best rail safety shots. best 3 cushion player.

but he is not the best 9ball or 10ball player, not the best 8ball player, not the best 14.1 straight pool player. that been said I think he also too lucky sometimes in shots :P and he struggle a bit in the draw stroke (In my point of view)

thats totally my opinion some people my disaggree, cheers to all :D

-asbani!
Click to expand...

Even Efren said that when he is playing good, nobody can beat him playing eight ball. This is coming from someone who always says he is lucky and seems to be very modest. I don't know about the bar box, but on the big table, Efren probably is the best to ever play eight ball. He is also one of the best 9 and 10 ball players ever. I think you left out rotation- I heard he doesn't play this too bad either! ;) Once he learns to draw the ball, he may be unstoppable! :D
 
gobrian77 said:
He can play a little 9-ball too.
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Speaking of Efren's break in 9 ball.

He played one of the best breakers in 9 ball (Earl Strickland) a race to 120 in Hong Kong and he beat Earl for $100,000 winner take all. I have that match and Efren's break looked good to me. I also have many Accu-stats matches with Efren playing 9 ball and i've always thought his break was good. He may not have the most powerful 9 ball break, but I would say it's a very good 9 ball break and when you combine that with his other skills he has to be one of the best 9 ball players.
 
SCCues said:
Speaking of Efren's break in 9 ball.

He played one of the best breakers in 9 ball (Earl Strickland) a race to 120 in Hong Kong and he beat Earl for $100,000 winner take all. I have that match and Efren's break looked good to me. I also have many Accu-stats matches with Efren playing 9 ball and i've always thought his break was good. He may not have the most powerful 9 ball break, but I would say it's a very good 9 ball break and when you combine that with his other skills he has to be one of the best 9 ball players.
Click to expand...

I think, it was like 21 break and run's in the final stretch.
 
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JamisonNeu said:
When did Taberski play? Where? Which records are you talking about? I am almost positive that the year Mosconi first retired he held every record. I think the year was 1947 I could be wrong maybe it was when he was 47. How do I find a video of Frank Taberski playing?
Jamison
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Jamison,
Thanks for the questions on Taberski. He's one of the greatest pocket billiards champions of all time, but, because his peak was in the early 1900's, (1916-1929 reign), he is largely overlooked or even forgotten.

Some of his unique accomplishments are he was / is the first champion to dfend his title 10 times without losing it, he won 20 challenge matches in a row, he won 33 games in a row in championship play, he won 307 (!) consecutive 100 ball exhibition matches and was purported to have ran 42 banks in a row.

He died in 1941 at the age of 52. There is some video of him. I have one of him running a rack of 15 balls using two sticks as a guide. He picks up the cue ball with the sticks close together, lets the cue ball roll up towards the butt and then aims by letting the cue bll roll back down the 2 cues, pocketing the balls. He ran a whole rack that way!

He was a great player, but he ws also very slow in his play. He makes Danny Basavich look like Luc Salvas with the slowness of how he played. I read where he would routinely take up to 10 minutes to properly line up a shot. He played with a very detatched and deliberate style. He was, in my opinion, the 3rd best 14.1 player ever, behind Mosconi and Greenleaf.
 
Williebetmore said:
Efren,
While there may be some disagreements in this thread, I'm hopeful that we can ALL agree that Efren must be THE LUCKIEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME (since no one could actually be that good).
Click to expand...

Check for that one. :D
 
Williebetmore said:
Efren,
While there may be some disagreements in this thread, I'm hopeful that we can ALL agree that Efren must be THE LUCKIEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME (since no one could actually be that good).
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Nobody has less teeth either.
I saw Efren is the best rotation and one-hole player of all time.
MIght be the best coin flipper too.:D
 
JoeyInCali said:
Nobody has less teeth either.
I saw Efren is the best rotation and one-hole player of all time.
MIght be the best coin flipper too.:D
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Joey,
I agree with you on the teeth. Nobody can have less than zero. Also, that Reyes is the best at rotation and 1 pocket, ever.

Coin flipper? I didn't know that was another of his talents.
He's a guy who seems very hard not to like. Remember the old thread about the "bad" Efren? :)
 
wrong about balkline

wincardona said:
...Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.
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Reyes is a great pool player, without a doubt. But, you are quite wrong about Efren being the best balkline player in the world - and wrong on the spelling, too (no space). Efren couldn't hold a candle up to Frederic Caudron - he's not even in the same league.

However, I believe it would be very safe to say that Reyes is the best balkline player out of all the professional pool players. I've often heard it referenced - how incredible and how quickly Efren learned how to play one-pocket well. Based on my observation, I think the control he displays (especially while playing one-pocket) came from years of carom/balkline training - where balancing cue-ball/object-ball speed to the millimeter are keys.

-Ira
 
wincardona said:
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.
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. . . and we're seeing the old Efren now. His best game was from about early 1970's to 1979, when he then stopped for about 6 years because nobody wanted to play him without getting the nuts. That's when he followed Parica under the pseudoname Cesar Morales. Back then the game gambled on was rotation. Backers and birdrails alike would bet on run-outs before the break and 'chalk-marked' cue ball stops after each shot for big bucks. It was gambling on top of gambling and boy did it go on for days. It was pool-fest central. The 50+ yr. old Efren now can be spotted by the 1970's Efren a ball or two in 1-hole, the 8 on 9B and +10 on rotation. :o
 
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