Rhythm - Cadence

[Gage]

Who here has actually developed and integrated a cadence into their game?
What I mean is, do you count to a beat when you play, like "1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4"?
If so, how long did it take you to find your cadence?

And on another note, does anyone know of any pros that count to a beat when they play?

 

[Varney Cues]

When I decided to try and improve my game, I did...kind of. All great instructors tell you to do the EXACT same thing on each shot...that builds consistancy. So I really wanted to develop the habit of having the same number of warm up strokes with a Buddy/Allison pause at the height of the backswing. So for a short time I was in my mind saying...."one, two, three, pause, accelerate". Didn't take very long at all and it became natural...and I found that I had quit counting in my mind. Now my mind just sceams "STAY DOWN" after I've hit the cueball.

 

[pooltchr]

Who here has actually developed and integrated a cadence into their game?
What I mean is, do you count to a beat when you play, like "1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4"?
If so, how long did it take you to find your cadence?

And on another note, does anyone know of any pros that count to a beat when they play?

As you are practicing, this is a great way to develop a consistant rhythm and cadence. Once it's developed, you may find it easier to get one song going in your head (I usually put mine on in the cd player on my way to the pool room) When I have that song rattling in my head, I don't necessarily have to count, but it seems to help me keep on track without consciously having to think about it while I'm playing.
Steve

 

[Colin Colenso]

What is the variable in the game that cueing to a rythym will help?

Would be expect a chess player to move to a rythym?

Some shots require more preparation than others...I'd hate to feel I had to hit the ball on the 4th beat of the 3rd bar everytime I got to the table.

The Cue Ball knows the speed, mass, center of mass and direction of the cue...not that the cue is dancing in time. So wonder if doing all this isn't just to try to look good.

Sports psychologists often tell athletes to follow a very set routine. I think that's because they have little else to hang their hats on. It's not that repetition and the isolation of variables is wrong, it's a natural part of practice. But in the case of stroke rythym or cadence, I wonder what variable of importance that it can help to improve, while I can see that being stuck to a time or beat limit can be restrictive.

Colin

 

[pooltchr]

Colin,
Have you ever played against someone who was very slow, or very quick? Did you have to fight the tendency to start playing at the same pace? Knowing your own natural rhythm and sticking with it just brings more consistency to every shot. Sure, some shots take a little more thought, but once you know what you are going to do, you should be able to go through your entire shooting routine at pretty much the same tempo. You see people all the time that are struggling, and you know it's because they are out of their rhythm.
Steve

 

[steev]

Some shots require more preparation than others...I'd hate to feel I had to hit the ball on the 4th beat of the 3rd bar everytime I got to the table.

in my cadence there's a 'loop' in the practice strokes when i'm needing extra aim time. it's not as rigid as it sounds.

Sports psychologists often tell athletes to follow a very set routine. I think that's because they have little else to hang their hats on. It's not that repetition and the isolation of variables is wrong, it's a natural part of practice. But in the case of stroke rythym or cadence, I wonder what variable of importance that it can help to improve, while I can see that being stuck to a time or beat limit can be restrictive.

Colin

are you serious? this game is all about consistency. without some form of pattern in your shot routine, you're letting a lot of variables go wild! i guess if you're just that smart/skilled/experienced, then maybe you don't need that kinda thing. but i do.

-s

 

[scottycoyote]

i think it can work well for some. Theres a very good player in my area who does 2 practice and on the third one he shoot and they all look the same. He gets down into stance, one two shoot. Every time, never varies, and hes an A+ player. I cant think of any pros ive ever seen that shoot like that though, probably one out there. I think using a cadence would make me feel like im shooting before im ready.

 

[shinobi]

I cant think of any pros ive ever seen that shoot like that though, probably one out there.

Evgeny Stalev.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

What is the variable in the game that cueing to a rythym will help?

Would be expect a chess player to move to a rythym?

Some shots require more preparation than others...I'd hate to feel I had to hit the ball on the 4th beat of the 3rd bar everytime I got to the table.

The Cue Ball knows the speed, mass, center of mass and direction of the cue...not that the cue is dancing in time. So wonder if doing all this isn't just to try to look good.

Sports psychologists often tell athletes to follow a very set routine. I think that's because they have little else to hang their hats on. It's not that repetition and the isolation of variables is wrong, it's a natural part of practice. But in the case of stroke rythym or cadence, I wonder what variable of importance that it can help to improve, while I can see that being stuck to a time or beat limit can be restrictive.

Colin

It is all about your pre-shot routine. That is where that rhythm/cadence helps. If you train a certain way, then in competition trust your training, you will fall into your trained pre-shot routine rhythm.

All shots take about the same time (number of warm up strokes etc...) to execute as long as you took the time to decide on a choice and commit to that action (watch Efren, Buddy, Nick, etc.........).

I strongly suggest to all that play at an A level that wish to improve their game, read and more importantly, put into practice the teachings and wisdom in "Golf is not a game of perfect" by Bob Rotella.

I was turned on to this book by Troy Frank, who was turned on to it by Jeremy Jones (I think). My copy has also gone out to Max Eberle and David Hemmah. We all agree unanimously, this book is "the nuts"!

 

[Andrew Manning]

i think it can work well for some. Theres a very good player in my area who does 2 practice and on the third one he shoot and they all look the same. He gets down into stance, one two shoot. Every time, never varies, and hes an A+ player. I cant think of any pros ive ever seen that shoot like that though, probably one out there. I think using a cadence would make me feel like im shooting before im ready.

There are quite a few pros who, when they're "in stroke", take the same number of practice strokes at the same tempo and rhythm for every shot for hours on end. See Mike Sigel's famous 150-and-out run against Zuglan. The time spent looking at the shot and deciding varies, but once he hits his stance, it's the exact same rhythm every time, same number of practice strokes and everything.

-Andrew

 

[Snapshot9]

I do ... But only

when I am breaking. Never could make up my mind when it felt right for the hit stroke when I break, so I incorporated this into my break, and it helps me because I am paying attention a lot to form and stroking right before I break.

Get into position to break, pay attention to stance and alignment, then
1-2-3-4 (What I call my rough strokes, or warmup strokes, yes I count as I do them)
1-2-3-4-5 (What I call my smooth strokes, or tuning in strokes)
THEN 'WHAM, AND THE CRACK OF THE BALLS' .... LOL

So, I always end up stroking 9 times before the hit stroke when I break. It has become 2nd nature to me now.

And I do break hard regardless of my size. Further proof can be seen of this from last weekend when I cracked part of my phenolic tip off of my J&J break/jump cue. Luckily, I bought a 2nd shaft for it, but the 2nd shaft does not perform as well as the original shaft. It has a black ferrule, and I do not believe it to be phenolic, as advertised, like the original shaft 1/2" white phenolic ferrule. The tip on the extra shaft is phenolic, but almost flat, while the original shaft tip looked more like a regular new tip only not quite as tall.

I was worried about getting it replaced because this is the first time I have had a cue with a phenolic tip (or ferrule), and just don't know about replacing them, but Bob Owen at Shurtz said no problem, and it would cost me $15.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Have you ever played against someone who was very slow, or very quick? Did you have to fight the tendency to start playing at the same pace? Knowing your own natural rhythm and sticking with it just brings more consistency to every shot. Sure, some shots take a little more thought, but once you know what you are going to do, you should be able to go through your entire shooting routine at pretty much the same tempo. You see people all the time that are struggling, and you know it's because they are out of their rhythm.
Steve

Steve,
I think having your own natural rhythm (thanks for showing me the spelling) and speed of play is important. It's a kind of indication of your frame of mind, your focus.

I think the rhythm played with is mostly a symptom of the mind state, but there is an argument to be made that forcibly changing one's rhythm can help to induce an effect on one's mindset.

I think this is different however than automating the stroking action completely, such as 3 feathers then hit, or doing it in time. This can become restrictive I feel.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

in my cadence there's a 'loop' in the practice strokes when i'm needing extra aim time. it's not as rigid as it sounds.

Steev,
A loop would be a good idea.

My concern was that someone can take an idea to an extreme and suffer due to it. So while a rhythm and a repetitive stroking procedure has advantages, it ought not be too rigid.

are you serious? this game is all about consistency. without some form of pattern in your shot routine, you're letting a lot of variables go wild! i guess if you're just that smart/skilled/experienced, then maybe you don't need that kinda thing. but i do.

-s

As I thought my original post indicated, and my one above clearly states, repetition of patterns is very useful, a natural part of anything we practice and repeat for thousands of hours.

There were two main points to my post:
1. It can be taken to far and become restrictive.
2. It invited a answer to how such a rhythm, pattern can provide a solution (playing the devil's advocate here). Pool teacher provided a good example I think.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

It is all about your pre-shot routine. That is where that rhythm/cadence helps. If you train a certain way, then in competition trust your training, you will fall into your trained pre-shot routine rhythm.

All shots take about the same time (number of warm up strokes etc...) to execute as long as you took the time to decide on a choice and commit to that action (watch Efren, Buddy, Nick, etc.........).

I strongly suggest to all that play at an A level that wish to improve their game, read and more importantly, put into practice the teachings and wisdom in "Golf is not a game of perfect" by Bob Rotella.

I was turned on to this book by Troy Frank, who was turned on to it by Jeremy Jones (I think). My copy has also gone out to Max Eberle and David Hemmah. We all agree unanimously, this book is "the nuts"!

Good response Corey,
And thanks for the book referal.

A kind of pre-shot rhythm and cadence certainly seems an advantage. I'm a little curious as to deeper thoughts as to why. I suspect that book provides some tips. I also try to play according to a kind of pre-shot routine and comfortable speed of movement transitions, but I try not to make it too highly structured...I'd rather most of it flows quite naturally from experience and based on the situation at hand.

While what the original poster recommended may provide an interesting experiment, I provided the point of view of the devil's advocate to disuade readers from the tendence to 'go too far' as is a common tendency with any concept, such as this one of structuralizing pre-shot and shot procedure obsessively.

My guess is the book you mentioned "Golf is not a game of perfect" by Bob Rotella, deals a lot with the decision making process, not prolonging or hesitating, but deciding, executing and learning. Decisions require choices, and if everything is automated, no choices would be required.

So between the two ends of automation (patterns of behavior to follow) and a purely random sequence of decisions and actions or inactions, there is a domain that combines the two. Where there are some patterns that are utilized and some periods for assessment, decision making and re-adjustment or rechecking of pattern.

Colin

 

[lewdo26]

I think the discussion is a little mixed up here, from what Colin brings up. I would think it is essential to practice your rhythm and routine consciously in practice. And counting it out makes sense as a training tool.

But if you're counting your steps during competition, you're dead. The moment you're playing, all of that (rythm, pre-shot routine) should already be grooved.

You should only be thinking where the cueball should land for the next shot and visualizing. Am I wrong?

 

[Gage]

While what the original poster recommended may provide an interesting experiment, I provided the point of view of the devil's advocate to disuade readers from the tendence to 'go too far' as is a common tendency with any concept, such as this one of structuralizing pre-shot and shot procedure obsessively.

I have actually been experimenting with setting my pre-shot routine to a cadence for the last few months, and it has helped my game tremendously. It took a while to feel comfortable with it, but after some rigorous practice I was WAY more consistent. The biggest problem I have faced was focusing too much on the beat count and not the visualization of the shot. It would be interesting to see other people do some experiments with this concept too.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Good response Corey,
And thanks for the book referal.

A kind of pre-shot rhythm and cadence certainly seems an advantage. I'm a little curious as to deeper thoughts as to why. I suspect that book provides some tips. I also try to play according to a kind of pre-shot routine and comfortable speed of movement transitions, but I try not to make it too highly structured...I'd rather most of it flows quite naturally from experience and based on the situation at hand.

While what the original poster recommended may provide an interesting experiment, I provided the point of view of the devil's advocate to disuade readers from the tendence to 'go too far' as is a common tendency with any concept, such as this one of structuralizing pre-shot and shot procedure obsessively.

My guess is the book you mentioned "Golf is not a game of perfect" by Bob Rotella, deals a lot with the decision making process, not prolonging or hesitating, but deciding, executing and learning. Decisions require choices, and if everything is automated, no choices would be required.

So between the two ends of automation (patterns of behavior to follow) and a purely random sequence of decisions and actions or inactions, there is a domain that combines the two. Where there are some patterns that are utilized and some periods for assessment, decision making and re-adjustment or rechecking of pattern.

Colin

Colin,

Actually that book teaches two types of practice.

The very structured such as; drills, pre-shot routine, shots you have trouble with. Basically, the 1's, 2's & 3's of the practice most of us think of.

The other type, is practicing to "trust" yourself, your stoke, mechanics, etc....ultimately "letting go".

The way I see it, the "letting go" type of practice would be cheap sets, local & regional tournaments.

To quote Max Eberle after he read it, "this book is triple-strong"!

P.S. Personally, I do have a pre-shot routing that I find to be most advantageous. It invloves, eye & stoke timing, back stroke pause, eye lock on the OB and lastly a visualization of the completed shot. That routine + some regular practice and the confidence that comes with it, is SUPER DUPER STRONG!

Efren, Buddy, Nick, Mike all have this!

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have actually been experimenting with setting my pre-shot routine to a cadence for the last few months, and it has helped my game tremendously. It took a while to feel comfortable with it, but after some rigorous practice I was WAY more consistent. The biggest problem I have faced was focusing too much on the beat count and not the visualization of the shot. It would be interesting to see other people do some experiments with this concept too.

Gage,
It's good to hear you're getting results from your methods. I could imagine that it takes some time to adapt to playing to a beat count.

But as Lewdo suggested about counting one's steps, or I could add number of wipes of the chalk, 3 blinks, and before you know it and Obsessive Behavior Disorder is developing. There must be some limit.

But there is value in experimenting. What you are doing may help you to focus on each aspect in sequence and prompt you to be more decisive, without doubt or hesitation. Allowing yourself to keep extraneous thoughts out of your mind.

Doubt (two mindedness), the forebearer of hesitation is a real killer, that's for sure, and that I feel is one of the reasons why having certain routines are helpful.

Just be careful that the routine makes sense in that it adds to the effectiveness of control over a certain variable, without distracting too much from any other.

 

[unknownpro]

I think the discussion is a little mixed up here, from what Colin brings up. I would think it is essential to practice your rhythm and routine consciously in practice. And counting it out makes sense as a training tool.

But if you're counting your steps during competition, you're dead. The moment you're playing, all of that (rythm, pre-shot routine) should already be grooved.

You should only be thinking where the cueball should land for the next shot and visualizing. Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong! (you asked!)

If you count in practice, count in competition. You should think about where the cueball should land for the next shot and visualize in order to decide how and where to stroke your cue - BEFORE the shot. On the actual shot you should only be thinking about delivering your stroke correctly. Timing and direction are everything. Visualizing the paths of the balls during the stroke distracts you from the path of the cue, which is the tool you are using and causes you to try and steer the balls instead of the cue. The balls will go where they are supposed to if your stick does.

I practice both ways, rigidly adhering to 1 stroke at times, 3 strokes at times, and allowing looping to 6 at others depending on what I'm trying to accomplish during practice, and how I feel. Regardless, they are all counted, and I always go on 1 or 3, even if it was really #12.

Johnny Archer often (usually I think) takes 17 practice strokes before his break. Mosconi seems to shoot very quickly no matter the difficulty of the shot. I'm not Mosconi though, I tend to double my strokes on more difficult looking shots.

I think you have to count, even if you just count to one on your last warmup stroke, you have to know it's your last.

unknownpro

 

[lewdo26]

Yes you are wrong! (you asked!)

If you count in practice, count in competition. You should think about where the cueball should land for the next shot and visualize in order to decide how and where to stroke your cue - BEFORE the shot. On the actual shot you should only be thinking about delivering your stroke correctly. Timing and direction are everything. Visualizing the paths of the balls during the stroke distracts you from the path of the cue, which is the tool you are using and causes you to try and steer the balls instead of the cue. The balls will go where they are supposed to if your stick does.

I practice both ways, rigidly adhering to 1 stroke at times, 3 strokes at times, and allowing looping to 6 at others depending on what I'm trying to accomplish during practice, and how I feel. Regardless, they are all counted, and I always go on 1 or 3, even if it was really #12.

Johnny Archer often (usually I think) takes 17 practice strokes before his break. Mosconi seems to shoot very quickly no matter the difficulty of the shot. I'm not Mosconi though, I tend to double my strokes on more difficult looking shots.

I think you have to count, even if you just count to one on your last warmup stroke, you have to know it's your last.

unknownpro

Interesting, unknownpro. I'll keep that in mind.

Just to clear this up though, I was not suggesting visualization during the shot, but prior to it, as you said. I mentioned it to imply that any thought about mechanincs, routine, etc. during competition could be a distraction.

Don't hesitate to correct me. Thanks.